Kyabje Ling Rinpoche

[stibo]

Hi all,

I read in some locations that Kyabje Ling Rinpoche have condemn the practice of Dordje Shugden (i.e. french Wikipedia), while Ursula Bernis wrote (p. 86) that Rinpoche was a practitionner.

I would be very surprised that a so great being would have change is mind about a so important issue as one change one shirt. In fact, I never saw a verifiable reference of this assertion.

Thanks

[Robert Thomas]

Hello,

The only source I know if is a talkhttp://www.lamayeshe.com/lamazopa/shugden.shtml by Lama Zopa:
"Some people think that the practice of Shugden prevents Lama Tsong Khapa’s teachings from degenerating and promotes their development. But there have been many Gelug lamas who without practicing Shugden, spread Buddhadharma, spread the stainless teaching of Lama Tsong Khapa like the sky. Lamas like Their Holinesses the Thirteenth and the Fourteenth Dalai Lamas, Ling Rinpoche and Kachen Yeshe Gyaltsen—a great, well-known Tibetan lama who wrote many, many teachings and not only didn’t practice Shugden but also advised against the practice."

However this is contradicted by the Western Shugden Society website
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/up-to-1997 which says:

"April 5th, 1996

At 8 a.m., a group of nuns go into the abbot’s chamber at Ganden Choeling Nunnery in Dharamsala and drag a Dorje Shugden statue into the street by using a rope attached to its neck. The perpetrators, Lobsang Dechen, disciplinarian of the nunnery, assisted by nuns Tenzin Tselha and Dolma Yangzom, spit at the statue,
sit on it, break it into pieces, and then throw the remains into the town’s garbage dump. This statue had been consecrated by His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, the junior tutor of the Dalai Lama, H.H. Ling Rinpoche, the senior tutor of the Dalai Lama, Kyabje Song Rinpoche and Kyabje Rato Rinpoche."

Also on this web site: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/gallery03.htm
"Kyabje Ling Dorje Chang had deep respect for Dorje Shugden, and practiced Nechung Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang had deep respect for Nechung, and practiced Dorje Shugden. Throughout their lifetimes as the tutors of His Holines the Dalai Lama, both great masters never had conflict and were so close with each other and had deep respect for each other. Why should there be conflict now?"

So its difficult to get to the bottom of that statement, except to me it doesn't make sense precisely for the reason that both Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche did indeed have great respect for one another.

Best wishes

Robert

[Alexis]

As far as I know, Ling Rimpoche never said anything bad against Dorje Shugden. There is no evidence whatsoever to support that he did. However, as usual, the Dl and followers stretch the truth beyond recognition in the manner such as:

1-He is not recorded as speaking in favor of the practice, therefore;

2-He was not in favor of the practice, therefore;

3-He must have been against the practice!

This sort of logic has been done with may past masters, stretching their words and writtings to suit the policies of Dharamsala. It works in pair with the brainwashing of young tulkus under Dharamsala's control.

[Alexis]

Stibo,

The old Ling rimpoche was either a practitionner or at least never said anything against it.

It is the young (Dharamsala controlled) Ling Rimpoche that could have made such remarks.

[Alexis]

TK, Beggar,

This short text should be posted somewhere on this website with a big label saying 'Ling rimpoche's short propitiation text to various protectors including Dorje Shugden'

If this is so, Ling Rimpoche's picture could also be added in the great masters section.

[beggar]

Dear Trinley 'Indiana Jones' Kalsang,

Gee, you're a wonder to behold! If i win the lottery tomorrow, i'll fund your research project...

There are various things which we can find out by inference, such as Kyabje Ling Rinpoche having been a close disciple of Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche - it would be hard to believe that he was 'against' his root Guru's practice; that he personally didn't practice because he is already an emanation of Yamantaka, that his kind of work didn't require it, and so on. But visible, printed, verifiable information is tops in today's world.

A perhaps interesting thought on the side: if we look who brought the Dharma to the West - Kyabjes Trijang and Zong Dorje Changs, Geshe Rabten, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso etc - did they practice Dorje Shugden for themselves or for us?

There are enlightened hermits in our tradition who said that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, yet themselves didn't do any protector practices...

Finally, just on the side - one reads here and there that HH Karmapa was against Dharmapala practice: how does that match with the very well known fact that he and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche were the BEST of friends?

Trinley Kalsangs everywhere arise, unite and write write write!

Thanking you -
beggar

[Heartspoon]

In the autobiography of Venerable Choyang Kuten Lama, the following is written:

"I was also taken possession of by the dharmapala of Shartse Monastery, called Setrap (the wrathful form of Buddha Amitayus). Both Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang and Kyabje Song Rinpoche decided that a final observation should be done by the high lamas to determine my autenticity. The high lamas included the Radeng Regent, Phuchog Jamgong Rinpoche, Kyabje Tadak Rinpoche, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Trukhang Puti Khangsar Dharmapala. The final examination was made in front of all the monks of Shartse College (the year was 1939). The total number of monks at Shartse College at this time was over two thousand. Prior to this ceremony there were seven days of intensive purification practice. As part of the ceremony slips of paper were rolled into pills, one saying that the possessing being was Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, another saying that it was a being who could not gain rebirth from bardo (intermediate) state. There were another three slips of paper rolled into pills for the Dharmapala Setrap. When I went into trance I was offered the first set of pills. I immediately took and ate the one referring to the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden. The same test was made of the Dharmapala Setrap. At that time I threw the other two pills away and pointed to the one left - the one referring to Dharmapala Setrap. Up to that point I had still not been convinced, but this was the final and conclusive test. I was then approved of as an oracle of the two dharmapalas, Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Setrap."

"Since Phagri Monastery belonged to Shartse College, Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang did observations and requested other lamas such as Purbuchok Rinpoche and Kyabje Ling Rinpoche (1905-1983), who later became the tutor to the present Dalai Lama, to do such observations also, in order to determine whether it was the presence of the Dharmapala."

[a friend]

Trinley Kelsang,

Thank you so very much for this!
If you could scan and send to the website that book with prayers to the Protector, from Sera Mey. I'm sure they wouldn't mind. They don't have this obsession with copyright and they would be very happy that Dharma be given as it should be ... for free.
 
You are lucky to have it. We are lucky to have you. 

[beggar]

(that's right... we would love to request for every bit of text/picture used here first, then shower all involved with flowers, credit and praise, as you, you and you deserve it and it would be the proper way... it's just that these are 'special' times, no one would want such credits and time is of the essence... Thank you everybody!)

[theloneranger]

The only source I know if is a talkhttp://www.lamayeshe.com/lamazopa/shugden.shtml by Lama Zopa:
"Some people think that the practice of Shugden prevents Lama Tsong Khapa’s teachings from degenerating and promotes their development. But there have been many Gelug lamas who without practicing Shugden, spread Buddhadharma, spread the stainless teaching of Lama Tsong Khapa like the sky. Lamas like Their Holinesses the Thirteenth and the Fourteenth Dalai Lamas, Ling Rinpoche and Kachen Yeshe Gyaltsen—a great, well-known Tibetan lama who wrote many, many teachings and not only didn’t practice Shugden but also advised against the practice."

What i find utterly outrageous is how the FPMT can post such advice on the website of the late LAMA YESHE! Lama Yeshe just happened to be a Dorje Shugden practitioner and died a Dorje Shugden practitioner.  I wonder what the late Lama Yeshe would have to say about this??? In the view of the Dalai Lama and FPMT shouldn't Lama Yeshe be viewed as a false lama, one who worships the devil!

[beggar]

check it out... from Lama Zopa Rinpoche's advice book:

THE HEADING...

Dorje Shugden is (IS: NOTE THE FINALITY) a spirit or mundane Dharma protector that some (INCLUDING THE - DELUDED?? - FOUNDER OF FPMT) believe is a fully enlightened being. He has become a rallying cry for some who wish to return Tibet (WHICH TIBET? THE ONE SIGNED OVER TO CHINA IN 1988??) to a theocracy (His Holiness the Dalai Lama wants democracy) (IF THE SAD EVENTS THIS SPRING HAVE SHOWN ANYTHING BEYOND DOUBT IT IS THAT THE TIBETAN GOVT IN EXILE IS A THEOCRACY, AND ANYTHING BUT A DEMOCRACY) with one school or sect as the official ‘church’ (WOW!!! INSIDERS/READERS OF OUR SITE BEHOLD... ). No FPMT center does this practice and all fully support His Holiness the Dalai Lama's wish that this practice not be done. For more information, see http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/index.html. (FOR EXTENSIVE COMMENTARY ON THIS SITE/TOPIC SEE "SUPRESSION STORIES" ON OUR HOME PAGE)

THEN...

Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything. But since His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the one who holds, preserves, and spreads (NO OFFENSE, BUT IT WAS LAMA YESHE/GESHE RABTEN WHO FIRST INVITED H. H. THE DALAI LAMA TO THE WEST; LAMA YESHE WHO FOUNDED FPMT, THE LARGEST GELUG ORGANIZATION EXCEPT NKT ETC) the entire Buddhist Dharma....

THEN...

This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil. For us ordinary people it is difficult to judge, because we cannot see these lamas ’ minds.

THEN...

Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context.

THIS KIND OF TRIPLE CONTRADICTIONS - ALL WITHIN THE FIRST 5 PARAGRAPHS - IS WHAT THIS BAN
(AND A BAN IS A BAN IS A BAN...) FORCES,
FOR EXAMPLE, ONTO H.E. ZOPA RINPOCHE.

DHARAMSALA POLITICS BLACKMAILS HIM TO SAY, IN ESSENCE:

a) MY ROOT GURU WORSHIPPED A SPIRIT AS HIS MAIN PROTECTOR, ON WHOM HE RELIED ON FOR EVERYTHING.
MY ROOT GURU IS AMONG THE GRUESOME SOME WHO WANT TIBETAN THEOCRACY.
MY ROOT GURU WANTS TO FORCEFULLY CONVERT ALL BUDDHIST SCHOOLS OF TIBET TO HIS.

b) BUT DO NOT BELIEVE MY ROOT GURU HAS MADE MISTAKES.
AND SINCE MY ROOT GURU HAS MENTIONED (Another side of the teaching...?)  THAT THIS SPIRIT IS AN ARYA BODHISATTVA, A MANIFESTATION OF MANJUSHRI, DO NOT INCUR THE VERY HEAVY KARMA OF HAVING NEGATIVE VIEWS ABOUT DORJE SHUGDEN, LAMA YESHE (MY ROOT GURU), AND ALL OUR EXALTED LINEAGE MASTERS.

WHICH ONE a) OR b) GOES DOWN AS GOSPEL - FOR EXAMPLE AMONGST MOST (IT SEEMS) FPMT STUDENTS AND CERTAINLY THE WELL-INDOCTRINATED GENERAL PUBLIC?

PLEASE LET NO ONE THINK I AM BEING SARDONIC - I FIRMLY BELIEVE LAMA ZOPA RINPOCHE IS A MOST NOBLE BEING WHO TRIES SO HARD TO BALANCE... WHAT IS ULTIMATELY IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE. AND I CAN'T HELP BEING SAD SEEING THE RESULTS...
THE POLICY OF THE FPMT CENTERS...
HAVING TO ABANDON ONE OF HIS GURUS (FROM WHOM HE RECEIVED DORJE SHUGDEN'S LIFE EMPOWERMENT) FOR ANOTHER WHO SAYS HE WILL TAKE THE CONSEQUENCES UPON HIM - YET ONE CAN HARDLY HELP SPECULATING WHY IT IS THAT LAMA YESHE/LAMA OSEL IS NOT WITH FPMT ANYMORE...

PLEASE, YOUR HOLINESS DALAI LAMA, ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT THIS BAN IS DOING TO BUDDHISM AND SENTIENT BEINGS. PLEASE DO NOT EMPLOY -AS YOU SAID TO US YOU WILL -THE METHODS OF THE CULTURAL REVOLUTION, THAT YOU RIGHTLY CONDEMN WHEN SPEAKING TO THE AUDIENCES OF THIS WORLD, TO ENFORCE THIS BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN, WHO HAS GUIDED YOU SAFELY FROM TIBET, WHO HAS BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN MAKING OUR LINEAGE LAMAS' (INCLUDING YOURS) WORK SO SUCCESSFUL, AND WHO HELPS  COUNTLESS BEINGS HERE AND NOW TO FIND DHARMA AND REMAIN IN DHARMA. 

DORJE SHUGDEN HAS SHOWN, IS SHOWING, AND WILL SHOW HIS HOLY, WISE AND LOVING CARE TO COUNTLESS BEINGS IN INNUMERABLE WAYS, BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT.

PLEASE, JUST ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT YOU KNOW IS TRUE.

SO THAT YOU AND WE CAN MOVE ON TO THE REAL PROBLEM - SUFFERING, ITS CAUSES AND HOW TO OVERCOME THEM.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Now listen all, and listen good.

The "Party of the Beast" uses the age old communist method, whereby the "the enemy of the liberation" is accused of those very things that the "liberating parties" are using themselves. If you succumb into their argumentative sphere, you will lose. Lose. Have no doubt about it.

(The West lost the argument against the CCCP, and nowadays the West is full of "gramscian commies" who are leading the West into the same totalitarian system that was supposed to be dead and gone after the "victory of the Cold War". (The fight is about the Hegemony, as explained by Antonio Gramsci, not about anything tangible, like say, land, truth, or any such bourgeoise thing.)

So get away! Do not argue. If you argue, you lose.

If you want to win, you must make your own discourse, and spread it. That is the only way. (Therefore nowadays I support the direct attack on the person of the HHDL, for just this reason... for only something like that takes the initiative or rather discursive hegemony away from the Guru Gramsci.)

To those who didn't have a clue what I just said, do not worry. You will be eaten.

[cheyenne]

Which bits of this is Dharma?
Which bits is Kadam Dharma of Je TsongKapa?
 

[a friend]

Can we find another word for THANK YOU?

This is becoming boring, to use always the same word.

No matter what, OUR GREAT GRATITUDE for this holy text.

The slander against our Lamas will clear up little by little, with these wonderful proofs.

Ling Rinpoché didn't revere Dorje Shugden? Ha!

If you can quickly do the translation, great, otherwise I'll try to find help.

Thank you TK

[godi]

Extract from: "Exploring New Religions" from "George D Chryssides", page 239.