Author Topic: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative  (Read 12300 times)

Namdrol

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Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« on: January 14, 2013, 01:30:40 PM »
Dalai Lama mentioned about Dorje Shugden again in his recent teaching in Sarnath, India. (see bottom)

Again, the Dalai Lama is repeating the same thing, nothing new. It is about asking those practising Shugden do not attend his teaching/empowerment session.

The article mentioned Shugden as a perfidious spirit, but it has already long proven beyond an iota of doubt, by various indusputable sources that Shugden is not a spirit, but an emanation of Manjushri.

Dalai Lama also mentioned that "many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences". Well, Dalai Lama is right, THERE IS NO NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES PROVES THAT DORJE SHUGDEN IS NOT HARMFUL! If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, as he always claimed, then by giving up the practice, Dorje Shugden will take revenge, like any other vicious spirit will do.

Therefore Dalai Lama has reaffirmed here, that because he and his friends met with no negative consequence by giving up Shugden, infers that Shugden is not a harmful spirit afterall, but a kind and compassionate Bodhisattva who will not become jealous even if you stop propitiating Him.

(the article)

.........................

Because the empowerment and receiving of vows involves making a pure spiritual bond with the Lama, His Holiness cautioned those who propitiate Shugden or Dolgyal, described by the Fifth Dalai Lama as a perfidious spirit, and who intend to continue to do so, not to attend tomorrow’s session. His Holiness mentioned that many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences. He encouraged people to give it up, not just because the Dalai Lama asks them to, but for the various reasons he outlined today and elsewhere.

(http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/897-third-day-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lamas-teachings-in-sarnath)

vajratruth

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 03:05:43 PM »

Dalai Lama also mentioned that "many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences". Well, Dalai Lama is right, THERE IS NO NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES PROVES THAT DORJE SHUGDEN IS NOT HARMFUL! If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, as he always claimed, then by giving up the practice, Dorje Shugden will take revenge, like any other vicious spirit will do.


Of course there is no negative consequences. How can an enlightened being harm anyone? Practitioners experience no negative effects while doing the Dorje Shugden practice, neither do people who stopped doing the practice suffer any consequences. None of the pujas to "exorcise" Dorje Shugden ever worked, the Dalai Lama is still very fit and healthy, Tibet has yet to regain it's independence despite the Shugden ban, and the Nechung oracle who claimed that Dorje Shugden is detrimental to the Tibetan cause has been proven to be wrong on so many occasions, including the time when Nechung prophesied that Tibet would regain its independence by the year 2000.

Virtually every single claim against Dorje Shugden has been proven to be blatantly wrong. What else is there to say about this Protector? What other proofs would anyone require? Namdrol's point is spot on, that is, if Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit why spare the people who are trying to stop his practice and worshippers who have abandoned the practice? Stopping the practice means that Shugden would no longer be propitiated and would also no longer receive offerings and have any influence on the practitioners. What kind of evil spirit would allow that?

What is baffling is that the Tibetan people have still not woken up to the fact that there is no down side in practicing Dorje Shugden, just like there is no down side in following Dharma. After all these years, it should already be obvious that lies have been told about a tremendously beneficial practice.

beggar

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 04:41:35 PM »
such baffling contradictions?

The DL refers to Dorje Shugden as a "perfidious spirit" but then goes on to say in the very same breath that there have been on negative consequences in stopping his practice. This whole situation would be very confusing for people who have been following what the Dalai Lama has been saying about the practice, wouldn't it?

If the practice really was that of a "perfidious spirit", then why even mention the fact that it doesn't bring about any harmful effects? And if it really wasn't as harmful as we have been thinking it is, then why mention at all that DS is a spirit?

The contradictions are rife in the way the Dalai Lama has spoken about Shugden. First for example, he speaks so determinedly about how the practice is bad and his teachers were definitively "wrong" in their practice (here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-says-directly-his-guru-is-wrong/). He has spoken pointedly about the need to expel monks from monasteries should they not adhere to his directive to stop the practice (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-encourages-expulsion-of-monks/)

And then later, he says that actually it's a choice - we choose whether to do the practice or not. He even begins to speak in more light hearted tones about it (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-again-at-kalachakra-in-bodhgaya/)

Also, while he has said clearly that his teachers were "wrong" in practicing DS, he also makes a special exception for the incarnation of his root teacher Trijang Rinpoche to teacher (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dalai-lama-says-trijang-rinpoche-can-practise-dorje-shugden/)

So which is it, Your Holiness? Is it okay to practice? Or not okay? And if we are to believe that you are an emanation of Chenrezig (which you are), and would therefore not make such mundane and silly mistakes, then which should we believe? The times you say that it's "okay" or the times when you say you must definitely not practice?

Isn't this bizarre? Or is there some kind of bigger plan in the madness? The Dalai Lama seems to be almost teasing us about this now - a deliberate provocation? Or perhaps just making us think things through more thoroughly?

Big Uncle

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2013, 06:00:13 PM »
Well, if Dorje Shugden was so bad, why would Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, Ven. Gangchen Rinpoche and many great Lamas would recommend Dorje Shugden? These are some of the most influential and most senior ranking High Lamas within the Gelug tradition.

Now, the 14th Dalai Lama had famously granted the permission to the young Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden. Why would the Dalai Lama do this? The Dalai Lama said that Trijang Rinpoche was sufficiently attained enough to control this spirit. If the spirit is so harmful, why would the Dalai Lama allow Trijang Rinpoche the exclusive right to practice? Is it because he is preparing him to spread it later?

Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden Small | Large


DharmaDefender

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 08:44:19 AM »
Dalai Lama mentioned about Dorje Shugden again in his recent teaching in Sarnath, India. (see bottom)

Again, the Dalai Lama is repeating the same thing, nothing new. It is about asking those practising Shugden do not attend his teaching/empowerment session.

The article mentioned Shugden as a perfidious spirit, but it has already long proven beyond an iota of doubt, by various indusputable sources that Shugden is not a spirit, but an emanation of Manjushri.

Dalai Lama also mentioned that "many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences". Well, Dalai Lama is right, THERE IS NO NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES PROVES THAT DORJE SHUGDEN IS NOT HARMFUL! If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, as he always claimed, then by giving up the practice, Dorje Shugden will take revenge, like any other vicious spirit will do.

Therefore Dalai Lama has reaffirmed here, that because he and his friends met with no negative consequence by giving up Shugden, infers that Shugden is not a harmful spirit afterall, but a kind and compassionate Bodhisattva who will not become jealous even if you stop propitiating Him.

(the article)

.........................

Because the empowerment and receiving of vows involves making a pure spiritual bond with the Lama, His Holiness cautioned those who propitiate Shugden or Dolgyal, described by the Fifth Dalai Lama as a perfidious spirit, and who intend to continue to do so, not to attend tomorrow’s session. His Holiness mentioned that many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences. He encouraged people to give it up, not just because the Dalai Lama asks them to, but for the various reasons he outlined today and elsewhere.

(http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/897-third-day-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lamas-teachings-in-sarnath)


I think that the irony is immense.

First, we will go down to the Three Lower Realms. Then we WONT go down to the Three Lower Realms.

First, Dorje Shugden will harm us if we stop practising him because he wants torma cakes. Then he WONT harm us because hes not harmful.

No disrespect intended AT ALL to His Holiness, but I wish hed make up his mind about these things. It creates so much confusion in the ignoramuses that form the general Tibetan population who simply cant (or refuse) to see the contradictions.

Although, you COULD always say that the Dalai Lama manifests confusion to get them to think and debate the issues amongst themselves. You know, to provide a catalyst for tea shop talk and make Tibetans acquire independent thinking, without relying on the establishment to TELL them what they SHOULD think.

Has anyone heard of the Dalai Lama saying Tibetans need to learn to think more for themselves?

Q

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 10:44:51 AM »
Hmm... Namdrol has a good point.

The very fact that no one got hurt from the cessation of Dorje Shugden's practice clearly indicates that He is a manifestation of an enlightened mind.

I have heard of many cases where people who go to worldly Gods or spirits for advice, when they stopped, many misfortunes happened and even some of these spirits are so unhappy that they threaten these people through the channeler. The very fact that the people that have 'given up' DS practice and their Guru's advice to practice DS just because the DL said so, and not come to any harm indicates the compassion of DS.

Take for example in the case of Nechung, during the incident when the monks did not listen to his advice... on the next consultation with the Nechung Oracle, Nechung refused to give any advice. This is the quality of a worldly spirit, he takes to heart and am offended that his advice was not followed.

While on the other hand, when Lama Zopa, when he was ill, his close students actually went to DS monasteries quietly to do DS pujas for Lama Zopa's recovery. If DS was truly an ill spirit, Lama Zopa will be in a worst condition as FPMT is known to be very much against DS, but that's not the case... Lama Zopa healed and is well.

In a more recent teaching that the Dalai Lama gave, he no longer call DS as Dolgyal, but call Shugden. He also mentioned playfully that he believes that everyone has listened to his advice and thought for themselves that it is the right thing to give up DS practice.... only few in the audience laughed while the others remained quiet... so @DharmaDefender, what do you think? I think this answers your question regarding Tibetans thinking for themselves... the fact that they don't find it 'entertaining' at all just means the followed blindly...

Positive Change

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 05:08:35 PM »
Hmm... Namdrol has a good point.

The very fact that no one got hurt from the cessation of Dorje Shugden's practice clearly indicates that He is a manifestation of an enlightened mind.

I have heard of many cases where people who go to worldly Gods or spirits for advice, when they stopped, many misfortunes happened and even some of these spirits are so unhappy that they threaten these people through the channeler. The very fact that the people that have 'given up' DS practice and their Guru's advice to practice DS just because the DL said so, and not come to any harm indicates the compassion of DS.

Take for example in the case of Nechung, during the incident when the monks did not listen to his advice... on the next consultation with the Nechung Oracle, Nechung refused to give any advice. This is the quality of a worldly spirit, he takes to heart and am offended that his advice was not followed.

While on the other hand, when Lama Zopa, when he was ill, his close students actually went to DS monasteries quietly to do DS pujas for Lama Zopa's recovery. If DS was truly an ill spirit, Lama Zopa will be in a worst condition as FPMT is known to be very much against DS, but that's not the case... Lama Zopa healed and is well.

In a more recent teaching that the Dalai Lama gave, he no longer call DS as Dolgyal, but call Shugden. He also mentioned playfully that he believes that everyone has listened to his advice and thought for themselves that it is the right thing to give up DS practice.... only few in the audience laughed while the others remained quiet... so @DharmaDefender, what do you think? I think this answers your question regarding Tibetans thinking for themselves... the fact that they don't find it 'entertaining' at all just means the followed blindly...


It is certainly an interesting point to be highlighted. Much of what HHDL says is not without a purpose. Most often than not, every word HHDL utters from his holy mouth is with precision of thought and clarity of mind. Let not our own misconceptions or lack of understanding of HHDL's pure mind be the spark of arrogance against HHDL.

There is certainly a change in tone in HHDL deliverance on issues such as Dorje Shugden. One can clearly see it here in this article. Read on: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/

vajrastorm

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 08:52:37 AM »
Yes, in very recent times, HH Dalai Lama seemed to have toned down in language when he spoke against Dorje Shugden. His anti-Shugden stance is more muted. It is true he still alludes to the fact that the Fifth Dalai Lama had also imposed a ban on Shugden practice. Yet even in regard to this, the reasons he has given on two recent occasions - on 9 December 2012 in Drepung Loseling Monastery and on 9 January 2013 at Sarnath - are rather general and less vitriolic.

On the former occasion, he said that the Fifth Dalai Lama had banned the practice of Shugden because people were praying to Protectors like Shugden for mundane reasons and not spiritual ones. On the latter occasion, he said that the Fifth had seen Dorje Shugden as "a perfidious spirit"(not as bad as referring to Shugden as a malevolent being of the preta realm, as he had previously done).   

Yes, HH Dalai Lama gives us hope indeed that perhaps he is moving towards the day when he will declare the ban lifted.
 

beggar

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 04:09:24 PM »
Hey all there's a good article up on this talk also, which looks deeper into the way the Dalai Lama has been speaking about Dorje Shugden. There's a good comparison of the different ways in which he has talked about Shugden and the changing tones - is the Dalai Lama being contrary? Or is showing a definite change in heart about the ban?

Which do you think it is?


True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/

His Holiness spoke on Religious Harmony and Dorje Shugden at Drepung Loseling Monastery in Mundgod, India, during a Lamrim teaching on December 9, 2012. Please refer especially to 21.00 minutes of the video onwards. A translated summary of what the Dalai Lama says can be found under the video.

His Holiness speaks on Religious Harmony & Dorje Shugden Small | Large


or watch on our server:
http://video.dorjeshugden.com/videos/dalailamareligiousharmony.flv

A translated summary of video above, from 21:00 minutes onwards:

“Within the Gelug, the Tsema Namdrol text has become the best. It used to be in Sakya but this has lessened. It would be good if others invited Geshes to teach it. We must have inter-sect harmony. That is why the practice of Gyalpo Shugden is not good. One reason is that Gelugpas have said not to study Nyingma texts. Saying this is not good. We need all lineages to unite and be harmonious.

“In Tibet and here (India), around 99% of you all have reasoned out my explanations of why we shouldn’t practice Gyalpo Shugden. There is no point to pray to a dead monk spirit (Drekpa).

“Since all of you are not practicing and I have talked about Shugden before, I do not need to talk about it again.

“In Tibet, they say that the Three Great Seats of learning (Gaden, Sera and Drepung Monasteries) have turned Nyingma because they have abandoned the practice of Gyalpo Shugden. What purpose is that? Are we now all Nyingmas here?

“They do not understand the situation but just overtly talk like that in Tibet. They don’t understand. If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!

“Sometimes I tease you. In front of Shakyamuni, we don’t pray or wish for long life, or for no obstacles. Do we even know how to pray like that to Shakyamuni? But in the protector chapel we really ask and pray for no obstacles and long life; we pray, “May things go my way”. And at the end of our prayers, we even pray for an end to our enemies! In the temple, in front of Shakyamuni, we fold our hands. But it’s in the protector chapel that we really open up and lay our hopes.

“The 5th Dalai Lama observed this situation and thus banned Shugden, relegating Shugden practice to that of praying to a dead monk spirit which was clearly not advised.”

Throughout the ban on Dorje Shugden, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has maintained his stance against the practice. However, what has become notable are the changes in his tone of delivery and the way in which he speaks of the issue. What these apparent inconsistencies portray or if they have a much deeper connotation is of course up to one’s interpretation.

The video of the Dalai Lama’s speech above clearly illustrates this considerable tonal change in manner and speech as well as the ‘lyrical’ change in the way he refers to the subject.

First, there is a noticeable change in the way the Dalai Lama now refers to Dorje Shugden. Since the implementation of the ban, the Dalai Lama has always referred to this protector as “Dholgyal”, meaning “King Spirit of Dhol”. This is a derogatory term which suggests that he must have done something very wrong to reincarnate back as a “spirit king. Now, the Dalai Lama refers to him as Gyalpo Shugden – it is significant that he refers to him by his name Shugden now. Although the term “Gyalpo” is still not respectful, the inclusion of his name and acknowledgement of his identity marks a step up from the previous referrals.

Secondly, the Dalai Lama used to maintain a very hard stance against the practice of Dorje Shugden and even overtly encouraged the expulsion of monks (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-encourages-expulsion-of-monks/), speaking in very strict tones. He has also been very firm about stating that his own Gurus were wrong for pursuing their practice of Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/videos/news-ban/the-dalai-lama-says-his-gurus-are-wrong/)

Over the years, we have noticed considerable change in the way the Dalai Lama speaks about the practice. From saying that we should not practice at all, he has begun to say that it is up to the individual to decide if they wish to practice Shugden; that he is not telling us what to do but a choice we can make for ourselves. (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/)

The way he speaks about Shugden practice in the video above continues this train of thought and is expressed in a much more relaxed, even playful, way. He says, “If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!” suggesting again that it is a choice and not an instruction that is so forcibly imposed on practitioners.

Further, the essence of this message seems to have evolved from merely emphasizing the harm of spirit worship. Instead here, the Dalai Lama engages in a broader discussion about how most practitioners relate to their Protector practices in a very mundane, base way, when in fact, true essence of enlightenment comes from a more serious propitiation to the Three Jewels.

This evolution of delivery, method and message seems to point to a more relaxed stance towards the ban, in an almost deliberate and conscious precursor to its eventual release in due time. We certainly hope that in time, the tone will relax completely to a point that the ban is released and the practice is freed.

Lineageholder

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2013, 07:18:50 PM »
Quote
The way he speaks about Shugden practice in the video above continues this train of thought and is expressed in a much more relaxed, even playful, way. He says, “If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!” suggesting again that it is a choice and not an instruction that is so forcibly imposed on practitioners.

I actually read this differently.  I think the Dalai Lama is mocking Dorje Shugden practitioners.  He's saying "if you can attain enlightenment by relying upon a worldly spirit, I rejoice". He knows full well that it's impossible to attain enlightenment by relying on a Gyalpo, so Shugden practitioners must be stupid for trying, and for not realising that they can't.

I don't see any tonal change at all.  He's still bringing up in every public teaching and speaking out against the practice. Also, bear in mind that he's preaching to the converted as Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend his teachings.  No one is given any choice about that.

kris

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2013, 08:47:13 PM »
@Namdro, yes, I agree with what you said... If Dorje Shugden is indeed an evil spirit, then if a person stop practicing it, the evil spirit will definitely hard the practitioners. However, such "bad" things didn't happen to the practitioners. From this logic alone, we can said that Dorje Shugde is NOT evil.

Thank your for such this simple yet important! information

lotus1

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2013, 10:39:28 PM »
Agreed with your logic, Namdrol.
As HHDL and his friends who stop practicing Dorje Shugden that met with no negative consequence, it infers that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being. If it is a harmful spirit, it will still have anger and hatred and will harm others if stop practicing him.
Another point that is HHDL is compassion and emanation of Chenrezig. If one is compassionate, he would not have differentiation that do not allow his enemy or other people from attending his talk. It is just so contradictory to his teaching.

Ensapa

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 04:50:38 AM »
Obviously Dorje Shugden cannot harm. He cannot harm the way how a mother will never harm her own child because he is a fully enlightened Buddha. The Dalai Lama saying this is to drop off more hints that Dorje Shugden is enlightened. It seems that during the recent years  he seems to have soften up a lot on Dorje Shugden and perhaps he is easing up people into accepting Dorje Shugden as a positive entity in the minds of  his followers? I believe very strongly that the Dalai Lama will be the one to lift the ban because of how he is talking about Dorje Shugden. Maybe the next time we'd find him saying that he has been mistaken about Dorje Shugden all along and that Dorje Shugden practitioners are allowed to come to his teachings?

WisdomBeing

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2013, 08:16:21 AM »
Also, bear in mind that he's preaching to the converted as Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend his teachings.  No one is given any choice about that.

That is an interesting point. If there are no Shugden practitioners in the audience, then why bother bringing it up? The possible conclusions are that there are people who privately still practice and the Dalai Lama knows this so he is reiterating the point. Secondly, the Dalai Lama wants to bring attention to this issue, whether there are practitioners in the audience or not. The bigger picture hypothesis requires Dorje Shugden to be constantly in the news, thus the Dalai Lama has to keep talking about Dorje Shugden in order to achieve the goal of ensuring that Dorje Shugden is the most well-known Dharma Protector at the present time.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Manjushri

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Re: Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2013, 03:50:05 PM »
Well, if Dorje Shugden was so bad, why would Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, Ven. Gangchen Rinpoche and many great Lamas would recommend Dorje Shugden? These are some of the most influential and most senior ranking High Lamas within the Gelug tradition.

Now, the 14th Dalai Lama had famously granted the permission to the young Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden. Why would the Dalai Lama do this? The Dalai Lama said that Trijang Rinpoche was sufficiently attained enough to control this spirit. If the spirit is so harmful, why would the Dalai Lama allow Trijang Rinpoche the exclusive right to practice? Is it because he is preparing him to spread it later?

Big Uncle, I likewhat you said, and to add to it, HHDL said that Trijang Rinpoche was sufficiently attained enough to control this spirit. So then he means that he himself is not attained enough to "control" this spirit? Any boddhisattva, and especially the emanation of Chenrezig as HH is, would subdue and "control" this "evil spirit" if Dorje Shugden was one, to prevent further harm being done to people. Like how Nechung was subdued. So, why doesn't HH subdue this "evil spirit" for the betterment of everyone, instead of just asking people to stop practising this "evil spirit"..unless Dorje Shugden isn't really an evil spirit as what has been proclaimed by HH.