Dalai Lama confirms that Shugden is not negative

[christine V]

When he reached the end of Chapter Eight he announced that tomorrow he will give an Avalokiteshvara empowerment and along with it the generation of the awakening mind, the layperson’s precepts and the bodhisattva’s vow. He also intends to read Chapters Nine and Ten.

Because the empowerment and receiving of vows involves making a pure spiritual bond with the Lama, His Holiness cautioned those who propitiate Shugden or Dolgyal, described by the Fifth Dalai Lama as a perfidious spirit, and who intend to continue to do so, not to attend tomorrow’s session.

In the news report, Dalai Lama requested those people whom practicing Dorje Shugden not to attend to the next day teaching. Of cause!  Those whom practicing Dorje Shugden are not encourage to attend to the empowerment that will be conduct on the next day, as it is an Avalokiteshvara empowerment , so those who are not into practicing Avalokiteshvara will not have to attend any more.

His Holiness mentioned that many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences. He encouraged people to give it up, not just because the Dalai Lama asks them to, but for the various reasons he outlined today and elsewhere.

Why did Dalai Lama purposely need to mention Dorje Shugden name to the public? And "purposely explained" further that stopping Dorje Shugden practice will not cause any harms? Even in the article using the words "encourage" not forbidden people to not practice. What he means various reasons to stop?

At the beginning of the news report

“In order to overcome ignorance, which is the root of all suffering, we need to understand reality. Nagarjuna praises the Buddha for revealing the unmistaken view that enables us to do that.”

They mentioned about Nagarjuna praises the Buddha. If they praises the Nagarjuna, they should well understand that the rise of Dorje Shugden is to protect Nagarjuna's middle's view. If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, why did Dorje Shugden wanted to protect the views?  Why should a harmful spirit, that wanted to harm human and by nature would harm the Dharma rise to protect Nagajurna's middle views? If Dorje Shugden is not Dharma Protector why did Dalai Lama allow Trijang Rinpoche to practice?

[Barzin]

I find that the contradictory is quite ridiculous, do you think the common people will be able to pick up the subtle hints that His Holiness is making?  Most of the people will just take whatever His Holiness said take into account, word by word.  This will continue to create doubt in the people.  On the other hand, those people will want to find out more will do their homework, finding out more information about the issue.  But I do not understand why His Holiness still continue to create doubt in people's mind knowing that they won't be able to get the subtle hints because of the lack of understanding.  The worse of all is there is never a concrete basis from His Holiness about banning Dorje Shugden, all the statements are too much in the air.  No facts and evidence to support.  Yes I do understand His Holiness must have his reason and the reason for the ban.  I am just concern about the common people who has limited understanding, what benefit do they get out of this really?

[Ensapa]

The way he speaks about Shugden practice in the video above continues this train of thought and is expressed in a much more relaxed, even playful, way. He says, “If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!” suggesting again that it is a choice and not an instruction that is so forcibly imposed on practitioners.

I actually read this differently.  I think the Dalai Lama is mocking Dorje Shugden practitioners.  He's saying "if you can attain enlightenment by relying upon a worldly spirit, I rejoice". He knows full well that it's impossible to attain enlightenment by relying on a Gyalpo, so Shugden practitioners must be stupid for trying, and for not realising that they can't.

I don't see any tonal change at all.  He's still bringing up in every public teaching and speaking out against the practice. Also, bear in mind that he's preaching to the converted as Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend his teachings.  No one is given any choice about that.

It could be that he is using reverse psychology on that because people have been enlightened by relying on Dorje Shugden and chaining that logic to the one that you have pointed out  -- that there are already no Dorje Shugden practitioners in the crowd, so what is the Dalai Lama really trying to tell those people? Certainly not to give up Dorje Shugden again right? To me, its more like he is trying to plant seeds and preparing the minds of those people to receive Dorje Shugden in as the Dharmapala of our times. It may take a while, but I do believe that good things will come to all who wait.

[beggar]

I actually read this differently.  I think the Dalai Lama is mocking Dorje Shugden practitioners.  He's saying "if you can attain enlightenment by relying upon a worldly spirit, I rejoice". He knows full well that it's impossible to attain enlightenment by relying on a Gyalpo, so Shugden practitioners must be stupid for trying, and for not realising that they can't.

I don't see any tonal change at all.  He's still bringing up in every public teaching and speaking out against the practice. Also, bear in mind that he's preaching to the converted as Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend his teachings.  No one is given any choice about that.

So exactly - if the people in his teachings are already the converted and not practicing, then why bring it up at all? Surely the Dalai Lama will know that his teachings are being broadcasted all over the world, and will be viewed by both Tibetan practitioners as well as practitioners everywhere else. This is most definitely a pointed comment that he knows will be heard by everyone - both for and against the practice.

It is not just a tonal change, but a change in the content too. Examine the way he addresses the issue through the years. There is definitely a marked difference. If he was maintaining such a hardline stance against it, then wouldn't he continue to maintain the same argument against the spirit - which began as being a definite stance NOT TO PRACTICE. It was uncompromising and no laughing, mocking matter.

Note this video that's also mentioned in the article: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/
Here, he doesn't even just speak about the practice being a choice of the individual, but also overtly mentions how the practice seems to be strong in certain parts of the world. Why even mention something like this (and chuckle) if he's trying to completely discourage it?

[Q]

Big Uncle, I likewhat you said, and to add to it, HHDL said that Trijang Rinpoche was sufficiently attained enough to control this spirit. So then he means that he himself is not attained enough to "control" this spirit? Any boddhisattva, and especially the emanation of Chenrezig as HH is, would subdue and "control" this "evil spirit" if Dorje Shugden was one, to prevent further harm being done to people. Like how Nechung was subdued. So, why doesn't HH subdue this "evil spirit" for the betterment of everyone, instead of just asking people to stop practising this "evil spirit"..unless Dorje Shugden isn't really an evil spirit as what has been proclaimed by HH.

Exactly my thoughts.

Just like how Dorje Shugden could not be destroyed by the 5th Dalai Lama and all the great lamas of that time, similarly DS cannot be destroyed by the present Dalai Lama. The only thing that can be this indestructible is only if DS is a purely enlightened Buddha.

If Pehar, Nechung... which belongs to the Gyalpo class of spirit and also the most powerful spirit in the land; can be subdued by Padmasambhava, then how can DS if he is a mere spirit not be subdued by HHDL? Not logical. Unless... because the DL do not have the blessings of the lineage lamas to destroy DS, thus he is unable to do so?

[Lineageholder]

Note this video that's also mentioned in the article: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/
Here, he doesn't even just speak about the practice being a choice of the individual, but also overtly mentions how the practice seems to be strong in certain parts of the world. Why even mention something like this (and chuckle) if he's trying to completely discourage it?

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen this.  I really don't see any change.  For a Western audience he says things like "it's your choice if you practice or not" but not for Tibetans, he's pretty hard line about it.  Why does he mention it again?  He mentions it in every public teaching I believe for two reasons - firstly, there are probably some people in the audience who are still practising but in secret and he's trying to get through to them, and secondly, he wants to reinforce the ban by keeping the issue alive.  He has a very angry attitude about Dorje Shugden practice and he has shown this many times in the past.  Since he feels so strongly, he will not let it go but will continue to mention it in every teaching.  It's purely politics.

[dsiluvu]

I find that the contradictory is quite ridiculous, do you think the common people will be able to pick up the subtle hints that His Holiness is making?  Most of the people will just take whatever His Holiness said take into account, word by word.  This will continue to create doubt in the people.  On the other hand, those people will want to find out more will do their homework, finding out more information about the issue.  But I do not understand why His Holiness still continue to create doubt in people's mind knowing that they won't be able to get the subtle hints because of the lack of understanding.  The worse of all is there is never a concrete basis from His Holiness about banning Dorje Shugden, all the statements are too much in the air.  No facts and evidence to support.  Yes I do understand His Holiness must have his reason and the reason for the ban.  I am just concern about the common people who has limited understanding, what benefit do they get out of this really?

Ever wondered if may be His Holiness is actually filtering out those that actually practice real "GURU DEVOTION", LOYALTY, and WISDOM? I've been thinking about this ridiculous ban over and over and over.... I just cannot accept that Chenrezig created havoc for no good reasons. So here is my theory and observations... the more HHDL says NO to Dorje Shugden.... the more China says YES. If you do the math... how many people are Tibetans and will listen to Dalai Lama and how many people are there in China? If you combine all those holly smolly ppl who are HHDL followers, they still don't come close to how the billions in China and well it ain't gonna stop there, that is for sure.

Why I say it is filtering is because from such a chaos, during harsh time like this, you see people's true colours emerged, you see how people react, how people dump their Guru like a blink of an eye, people who don't think deeper, don't investigate, don't really practice Dharma and condemn and put others down... well they are not exactly very Buddhist when they become violent... this is when the show of characteristic comes  out and well preserving and protecting the Nagarjuna's middle view. That is why once the ban is gone you will know who follow loyalty.

[Ensapa]

To me, as I have observed again and again, the whole point of the ban seems to be focusing on separating people who are really interested in the Dharma and its practice from people who only like Buddhism from an intellectual level. Many people who get caught with the ban on Dorje Shugden tend to be people who act in such ways where they are actually worse than people who are not Buddhist and do not respect the basic tenets of Buddhism to begin with. There are so many examples of delusional people that you can actually find online whose actions do not match their words and they happen to be supporters of the Dalai Lama and they go against Dorje Shugden. So it seems to me that the Dalai Lama is using this ban to keep those people away from the true lineage of Ganden.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

What a assumption! What are you? A real practitioner? A intellectual or what? Which one are you? If you classify yourself as neither, then you are in trouble as the saying goes!
Ensapa, you are truly entertaining and yet living in a ultra left wing dimension beyond our reality's time and space.
 
I like you though. Your ideas are interesting although they don't make real sense yet creative. Thanks for being here.

To me, as I have observed again and again, the whole point of the ban seems to be focusing on separating people who are really interested in the Dharma and its practice from people who only like Buddhism from an intellectual level. Many people who get caught with the ban on Dorje Shugden tend to be people who act in such ways where they are actually worse than people who are not Buddhist and do not respect the basic tenets of Buddhism to begin with. There are so many examples of delusional people that you can actually find online whose actions do not match their words and they happen to be supporters of the Dalai Lama and they go against Dorje Shugden. So it seems to me that the Dalai Lama is using this ban to keep those people away from the true lineage of Ganden.

[yontenjamyang]

Namdrol. I agree with your logic. It is faultless. If the protector is harmful it will certainly be taking revenge when one stop practicing. Like a vengeful spirit. On the other hand if nothing happens when one stop propitiating Him then his is compassionate or benign. Ironically, that being the case, then we should then be propitiating HIM since he is compassionate and is therefore enlightened.

On another angle, in a teaching at Drepung Loseling Monastery in Mundgod, India, http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/, I quote:

They do not understand the situation but just overtly talk like that in Tibet. They don’t understand. If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!

“Sometimes I tease you. In front of Shakyamuni, we don’t pray or wish for long life, or for no obstacles. Do we even know how to pray like that to Shakyamuni? But in the protector chapel we really ask and pray for no obstacles and long life; we pray, “May things go my way”. And at the end of our prayers, we even pray for an end to our enemies! In the temple, in front of Shakyamuni, we fold our hands. But it’s in the protector chapel that we really open up and lay our hopes.


In the above quote, HHDL is saying if one can gain enlightenment from propitiating Dorje Shugden, he rejoices. I read it that he is offering the possibility of that. Protector practice is a supportive practice and if not the main practice for gaining enlightenment. However, in this degenerate age the practice can help lead many from sufferings and to the proper path of practice.  In this quote also, he is not objecting to the protector per se but to the practice of many in over relying on the protector for mundane worldly objectives and even to eliminate enemies. That is not the fault of any protector but the fault of humans.  (Note that the protector will never grant any wishes that creates negative karma for the practitioner).

My point? Implicitly, he means that since the Protector Dorje Shugden is the most powerful and suitable protector of this age, in that he is the swiftest and grant many wishes, it is also dangerous from the point of view of the practitioner in their over reliance of the protector. Nonetheless, he acknowledges the Protector. I rejoice.

[Ensapa]

What a assumption! What are you? A real practitioner? A intellectual or what? Which one are you? If you classify yourself as neither, then you are in trouble as the saying goes!
Ensapa, you are truly entertaining and yet living in a ultra left wing dimension beyond our reality's time and space.
 
I like you though. Your ideas are interesting although they don't make real sense yet creative. Thanks for being here.

I would classify myself as an intellectual. Before I met Dorje Shugden or met my Guru who showed me other material that proved to me that Dorje Shugden was actually an enlightened being, I would have shunned him altogether. Like I have said, it is only  my observation because so far the really hardcore anti Dorje Shugden followers of the Dalai Lama except for you had said that even mentioning his name brings bad luck, so it is best not to even say his name. That sounds more like something a superstitious person would say rather than a Buddhist.

I may not work according to your reality but i still hope that what i write would one day make a difference in someone's mind. there are so many people in this world and so many readers in this forum and so many different dispositions, if it is this way to you, it might mean something else to others

[Gabby Potter]

Obviously there is a contradiction, do you think that His Holiness the Dalai Lama doesn't know about this? I doubt that, His Holiness is an enlightened Buddha, what do you think His Holiness is? His Holiness is very kind and compassionate to make Himself look bad and so that people would have the chance to "confront" Him. If this is not true compassion, then what is?

[VeronicaSmith]

Of course he is not harmful! Dorje Shugden is not a demon, spirit or a evil thing in any form. There are no negative consequences... Of course there is not! He is an emanation of Manjushri and everybody knows that. i hope this is a start, a stepping stone, to a lifted ban. So the monks and the people being discriminated can be freed from their suffering that they do not deserve and they are being ignored, called over-reacting or people even say that the discrimination isn't there and the worst part is that they didn't do anything wrong other than believe which is not against the law!

But we can boost the process of lifting the bad by showing the world that this discrimination is happening and teach them to look beyond one man and see a situation for themselves. People need to know, we need to shed light on the situation and so the other side of the world if not the whole worlds can know about this. We need to go to them with this news and show them the cruelty and get the whole world to lift the ban. So the poor people can be free.