17th Karmapa

[theloneranger]

What gives the Dalai Lama and the government in exile the right to interfere in issues regarding the Karma Kagyu school?

An excerpt from a Karma Kagyuwebsite:-

“I believe that the Karma Kagyu should be able to choose its own spiritual leader in the traditional way,” Shamar told me. “Ogyen Trinley was not chosen in the traditional way, but through political interference from the Tibetan exile government, the government of China and many others. All the other religious schools of Tibet are able to choose their leaders on their own. Why can’t we choose ours? His Holiness Dalai Lama is putting politics before religion in this case.
“Because his devotees in foreign countries are not in the habit of questioning his actions, they blindly support His Holiness Dalai Lama in this case. I call such followers ‘package believers.’ They follow the Dalai Lama because he is a Buddhist teacher and leader of Tibetans, so that is all they need to know. They just accept the whole package without investigating for themselves whether what His Holiness does is really right in this case. For example, if I had a house, and the Dalai Lama wanted to take it for himself, these package believers among his devotees would say that I am wrong to protect my property or even to complain, and that he is right to take it.
“I understand when Tibetans feel this way; their livelihood may depend on being on good terms with the Tibetan exile administration in India. Maybe they would lose their job if they questioned the Dalai Lama’s right to choose the Karmapa. But for people around the world, this is an unhealthy development in Buddhism. If one man is so admired around the world that he can do anything he wants without fair scrutiny, then he is effectively a dictator. There is no oversight. And, if the Karma Kagyu school cannot choose its own leader, does this set a precedent for the other religious schools of Tibet? Will the Dalai Lama choose their leaders too?
“Dharma is about thinking for yourself. It is not about automatically following a teacher in all things, no matter how respected that teacher may be. More than anyone else, Buddhists should respect other people’s rights—their human rights and their religious freedom.”

[DharmaDefender]

They have no right. From a spiritual point of view, the Gelugs should not interfere in Kagyu affairs. From a political point of view, the Tibetan government as a democratic government should remain objective and not get involved in religious issues.

From another perspective, consider this - whatever "major" decisions the Dalai Lama and the government have made in relations to practice have always ended up becoming politicised and causing great rife in the Tibetan population. Either the government and His Holiness are very silly (only fools make the same mistake twice, right?) or they have a bigger purpose. Since I choose to believe that His Holiness is not THAT stupid (although the same cant be said of the government), there has to be another reason why they keep getting involved again and again, despite the glaring hypocrisy of their actions.

[Galen]

Politics and Religion should not be mixed but in this case, the Dalai Lama has interfered into the affairs of the Karma Kagyu school in their right to choose their leader. By right, the Dalai Lama has no right to do so. The Dalai Lama was the head of Tibetans and also head of the Gelug school of Buddhism. If this is possible and that is accepted by other schools, does that mean that in the future, the Karmapa has the right to appoint the future Dalai Lama? Isn't this not right?

We can see that the Dalai Lama is in support of Ogyen Trinley as the rightful Karmapa and is set to take over the head of Buddhism in Tibet when the Dalai Lama enters into clear light. If that is so and if the Karmapa lifts the Dorje Shugden ban in the future (for freedom of religious practice for all), it would also mean that all Gelug school will follow the Karmapa's instruction?

[Ensapa]

I think the post really describes the current state of the Dalai Lama's believers:

“Because his devotees in foreign countries are not in the habit of questioning his actions, they blindly support His Holiness Dalai Lama in this case. I call such followers ‘package believers.’ They follow the Dalai Lama because he is a Buddhist teacher and leader of Tibetans, so that is all they need to know. They just accept the whole package without investigating for themselves whether what His Holiness does is really right in this case. For example, if I had a house, and the Dalai Lama wanted to take it for himself, these package believers among his devotees would say that I am wrong to protect my property or even to complain, and that he is right to take it.

Because this is not what the Buddha taught and neither is this what the Dalai Lama has taught. But why is it that so  many people just blindly accept the Dalai Lama? Is it because it is simply easier to do so? I mean, we're all scientific people especially people in the west but they seem to be caught up with all the mysticism that Buddhism appears to be to them, while ignoring the actual teachings that will help them but are challenging to take up.

[beggar]

I love the way the articles are reincarnating here! *chuckles*

There seem to be quite a number of karmapa-related articles going round the big bad world of the internet right now. It's been a hotly contested issue for many years, after all, and continues to be so. I hear that even in Bodhgaya, both Karmapas turned up for the karma kagyu monlam this year, though at separate times for separate crowds. Imagine! That in the very seat of enlightenment, politics divides two separate groups as they both traverse the path equally for enlightenment. How is this possible?

But I digress.

What the karmapa issue does bring to light are, above all, the discrepancies in the policies of the tibetan leadership and in the blatantly doubled double standards that are being dole out to different religious groups. This was just up a few days ago, Two Karmaps and the Forbidden Buddha  (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-karmapas-and-the-forbidden-buddha/) and looks at just how ridiculous the whole situation has become. The hypocrisy is startling, even primitive, for how obvious the inconsistency is in the way a government can treat and respond to its own people.

There's also this startling piece about the Karmapa and his obviously close and endorsed relationship with the Chinese-backed Panchen Lama, a most unlikely friendship, you'd have to agree:
The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama: A Chinese Conspiracy?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-17th-karmapa-and-the-11th-panchen-lama-a-chinese-conspiracy/

So why is it that the Dalai Lama and his government can exercise such blatant bias - that the Karmapa can freely associate with the Chinese (and it's OKAY) but Dorje Shugden are so often (wrongly) accused of being Chinese spies, taking Chinese funds etc? Another great big whopping inconsistency, isn't it?

[vajratruth]

There are a few things I find very disturbing about the 17th Karmapa controversy. First, I cannot understand how the CTA can stand quite idly by as China and India lay their hands on the Karmapa issue, with China appearing to have endorsed the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley (Tai Situ Rinpoche camp) and the Indian government seemingly supporting Karmapa Thaye Dorje (Shamar Rinpoche camp). The traditional seat of the Karmapa is Rumtek Monastery located at Sikkim - one of the subject matters of the Sino-Indian border issues. Given that the Karma Kagyu sect has one of the largest followings amongst Tibetans and further, that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley may very well succeed the Dalai Lama as the head of Tibetan Buddhism, I would have thought that the CTA would manage the issue better instead of leaving it to foreign hands and taking sides. This shows very clearly that the CTA is miserably incapable of managing its own domestic affairs, let alone sensitive matters involving foreign states.

Second, The CTA did literally nothing to arbitrate for weeks and allowed the occurrence of the event in 1993 when both sides of the Karmapa issue clashed openly and violently, even storming the hallowed grounds of Rumtek Monastery behaving more like soccer hooligans than members of the sangha [see: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/others-old/rival-tibetan-lamas-compete-for-recognition/. Instead of containing the problem, the CTA in talking sides in fact stoked the fury of Tibetans like they did in the Dorje Shugden case. Again, the CTA is proven not to be able to handle its own problems like any responsible government in a free country should.

Third, the Dorje Shugden ban split the Tibetan community and the Karmapa issue divided them even more. Why is the CTA interfering in sectarian and religious issues to the detriment of Tibetan unity? It is the CTA that is creating schisms within the monastic and secular communities and yet they blame Dorje Shugden for being sectarian and divisive. How odd that the CTA should get away with that. They seemed to have divided and conquered the Tibetan nation for the Chinese, again.

[Ensapa]

The Karmapa issue has been a very complicated one and one that cuts deep into the hearts of the Karma Kagyus as there can only be one Karmapa that occupies Rumtek. The whole saga draw out the depth of Tibetan political games and we can see how ugly it can get. Both the Sharmapa and Tai Situ has been writing some not very nice stuff about each other, or at least their supporters are and CTA seems to side Tai Situ's side, lending them Robert thurman to write nasty stuff about the sharmapa, while the sharmapa has took swift and decisive actions against tai situ. Both were trained and nurtured by the 16th Karmapa and it is indeed a sad thing that it ended up this way. One thing for sure is that CTA should stop adding salt to the wound as their meddling in would not result in any benefit at all.