Shugden cannot be applied to Gelug School or any School

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Dhogyal is not applicable to the great school founded by the illuminating king of dharma Tsongkapa. Tsongkapa the all Knowing Himself appointed Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishravana as protectors of the Three Scopes. Why not TRUST Tsongkapa?

Dhogyal is not applicable practice to Gelugs or anyone. Since you place faith in these 'deities' or deities by virtue of your faith in certain lamas' words, why pick some lamas over Tsongkapa?

Well shouldn't you believe and trust Tsongkapa more than Trijang Rinpoche?  ::)How many of you have met Trijang Rinpoche? None right? Unless you are 80 years old. Trijang Rinpoche is your lineage guru and you should trust? Well so is Tsongkapa. Tsongkapa is your lineage guru also. Why choose Trijang over Tsongkapa? Illogical bias?

Trust Tsongkapa. Without Tsongkapa there would be no Trijang and all those masters. Full stop. Stop Dhogyal and pick up with Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishrava as they have zero controversies-ALL ACCEPT THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED. 
   

[Ensapa]

You're right. He cannot be 'exclusive' to any school because he protects the Dharma as a whole, as this is what he promised Nechung he would do. But if we were to make a special commitment to him to receive further blessings, we would need to focus on Je Tsongkhapa's teachings. So in essence, you dont need to be Gelug to receive his help as you can get his help by just thinking of him or looking at him and he will lead you to the Dharma path that you have the most affinity with.

Thanks for pointing this out!

[Q]

I second Ensapa, good logic there.

First of all, HHDL in recent teachings no longer refer DS as Dolgyal... have you been slacking off from listening to Dharma teachings by HHDL or just plain stuck in the past? Please come up to speed.

Secondly, you make it sound like DS practitioners had the choice. HHDL's practitioners had a choice, the chose to follow what HHDL said, we DS practitioners never had the choice. The very fact that this issue is being brought forward is a clear sign that you're trying to force it down our throats.

I do not see the difference between Tsongkhapa and Trijang Rinpoche, for there is a teacher and the kind lineage masters that have kept the teachings alive. Are you saying that our lineage masters is not important? Then you're also saying that HHDL is not important to you.

So, let me remind you once again, the very last words Buddha advised us all that follow His great path to liberation:

“Believe not because an old book is produced as an authority. Believe not because your father said [you should] believe the same. Believe not because other people like you believe it. Test everything, try everything, and then believe it, and if you find it for the good of many, give it to all.”

[Big Uncle]

Well Tenzin Gyatso, it is not proper to say things like that. We are not going against Lama Tsongkhapa's advice. Lama Tsongkhapa lived at the turn of the 14th Century and his advice catered specifically to the practitioners of that era which were mainly monastics. So, the combined practice of Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishravana is still effective today and many people are still propitiating the combination of these 3 Protectors to remove obstacles in gaining insight into the Lamrim.

However, times change and the karma of the people change too. Dorje Shugden as a protector arose after Lama Tsongkhapa passed into parinirvana. Apparently Tagphu Pemavajra, the mystic traveled to Gaden heaven and beheld Dorje Shugden under the throne of Lama Tsongkhapa. Tagphu Pemavajra received the practice in Gaden and bestowed it to Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, and he in turn spread it to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche along with many other Lamas and practitioners. Just before the ban, most Gelug Lamas and monks practice Dorje Shugden.

With his clairvoyance and wisdom, Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche explained that Dorje Shugden is the most suited for the difficult practitioners of our time. But even Pabongka Rinpoche never replaced any of the practice of Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishravana. However, Dorje Shugden's time is near and eventually even the Dalai Lama's ban cannot stop him from growing bigger and bigger. Eventually, the Dalai Lama's ban have to be lifted.

[jessicajameson]

@TenzinGyatso

1.

Well shouldn't you believe and trust Tsongkapa more than Trijang Rinpoche?

The person who banned Dorje Shugden is His Holiness the Dalai Lama. So, it is HHDL along with unenlightened Nechung, that ban Dorje Shugden and first referred to Him as Dhogyal.

So your question should be, why pick His Holiness the Dalai Lama over Trijang Rinpoche's advice? Tsongkhapa did not ban Dorje Shugden.


2.

How many of you have met Trijang Rinpoche? None right? Unless you are 80 years old. Trijang Rinpoche is your lineage guru and you should trust? Well so is Tsongkapa. Tsongkapa is your lineage guru also. Why choose Trijang over Tsongkapa? Illogical bias?

I have not met Tsongkhapa, nor have I met Trijang Rinpoche. Both are enlightened beings, how can I choose one to be right over the other. I choose Dorje Shugden because my Guru trusts him, and he kindly gave me His practice.

So if I needed to pick, the question to myself would be, "Is His Holiness the Dalai Lama correct, or my Guru?"


3.

Dhogyal is not applicable practice to Gelugs or anyone. Since you place faith in these 'deities' or deities by virtue of your faith in certain lamas' words, why pick some lamas over Tsongkapa?

Dorje Shugden is the emanation of Manjushri. It was Manjushri who blessed Lama Tsongkhapa with the ability to recall all of his previous lives, it was Manjushri whom Lama Tsongkhapa had visions of and could communicate with directly with and it was Manjushri's teachings which Lama Tsongkhapa studied.

So really, if I believe in Dorje Shugden, I trust Tsongkhapa.


4.

Stop Dhogyal and pick up with Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishrava as they have zero controversies-ALL ACCEPT THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED.

   

We don't have to trust what everyone accepts is right. If that's the case why even study the Dharma, most of the world does not accept it as a religion.

[beggar]

Yes, we do consider Tsongkhapa as our lineage Guru, the father of our lineage.

This point alone validates the practice of Dorje Shugden. For Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, one of Dorje Shugden's previous emanations, was widely regarded as an emanation of Tsongkhapa himself. And it was in this lifetime, as Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen that he first made the promise to arise as a Dharma protector to protect the teachings of Tsongkhapa.

Another point to support this that Tsongkhapa is an emanation of Manjushri. And so is Dorje Shugden. So they are certainly of the same mindstream and therefore one and the same.

So if there is any validation from Tsongkhapa as to who we can practice, this would actually be the best for we would be propitiating Tsongkhapa himself - just in another 'guise'.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

You missed the whole point. I guess you don't have a verifiable answer, so you have to digress to something else to distract?
You know what I am saying and you didn't address it at all. 

You're right. He cannot be 'exclusive' to any school because he protects the Dharma as a whole, as this is what he promised Nechung he would do. But if we were to make a special commitment to him to receive further blessings, we would need to focus on Je Tsongkhapa's teachings. So in essence, you dont need to be Gelug to receive his help as you can get his help by just thinking of him or looking at him and he will lead you to the Dharma path that you have the most affinity with.

Thanks for pointing this out!

[Zach]

Cittamani Tara also came from the same person as Dorje Shugden, Yet HHDL still grants Cittamani Tara.

Strange that how he would take the vision of one whom would have corrupted their refuge vows according to his logic.

[wang]

Dhogyal is not applicable to the great school founded by the illuminating king of dharma Tsongkapa. Tsongkapa the all Knowing Himself appointed Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishravana as protectors of the Three Scopes. Why not TRUST Tsongkapa?

Dhogyal is not applicable practice to Gelugs or anyone. Since you place faith in these 'deities' or deities by virtue of your faith in certain lamas' words, why pick some lamas over Tsongkapa?

Well shouldn't you believe and trust Tsongkapa more than Trijang Rinpoche?  ::)How many of you have met Trijang Rinpoche? None right? Unless you are 80 years old. Trijang Rinpoche is your lineage guru and you should trust? Well so is Tsongkapa. Tsongkapa is your lineage guru also. Why choose Trijang over Tsongkapa? Illogical bias?

Trust Tsongkapa. Without Tsongkapa there would be no Trijang and all those masters. Full stop. Stop Dhogyal and pick up with Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishrava as they have zero controversies-ALL ACCEPT THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED. 
   

This is a very popular reasoning against DS practice put forward by blind faith guys like Tenzin Gyatso here in the web.  But it cannot be subjected to further challenge.  Reason is:

Tenzin Gyatso, if you really stick to this logic, check it up with your Ningma friends and see what main practice they are doing and when did they start in the history.  You are taking a static view on religious practice(by referring to Tsongkapa's time regardless of Gelukpa lineage's stream of development as time change) but not an dynamic view.

The fact is that the DS 'worship' of Gelukpa is much older that Jigme Lingpa (1730-1798)'s Longchen Nyingthig, and for sure  Dudjom terton which started in 1835 with Dudjom Lingpa.  By the same reason, will you think that they are too 'recent'?  Would you urge the Ningmapa going back to  Longchenpa (1308-1363) and give up their main practice?

Going to the extreme, by your same logic, most of the Tibetan Buddhism practices should be given up including the whole Gelukpa lineage...

Song Rinpoche said:'those always talk about sectarian is sectarian'.

[Ensapa]

You missed the whole point. I guess you don't have a verifiable answer, so you have to digress to something else to distract?
You know what I am saying and you didn't address it at all. 

I'm just seeing what you wrote in another light. After all, all it takes for us to realize something is to see it from another direction. I believe all of us do Kalarupa pujas alongside Dorje Shugden's pujas, so there isnt really a case of "we do Dorje Shugdens pujas but not Kalarupa's" here. I dont think it is exclusive. We can follow Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings AND practice Dorje Shugden at the the same time. After all, the best way to make Dorje Shugden happy is to follow Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings and have Guru devotion so to say that we should 'trust' Lama Tsongkhapa and do only Kalarupa but not our Gurus who told us to do Dorje Shugden is a bit of a logic loop.

This is what I was trying to point out

[Lineageholder]

We propitiate Kalarupa, Mahakala, Vaishravana, Palden Lhamo and countless other protectors every month, as well as Dorje Shugden.  Tsongkhapa didn't say that we should not rely on Dorje Shugden so we rely upon him and all the other protectors as well.

Your argument doesn't really work.  If Lama Tsongkhapa is an enlightened being, he's working for our benefit even today and so we can see Dorje Shugden practice as his development. It's not like he's just sitting around in Tushita Pure Land having a holiday!  The presentation of Dharma and its various practices change in accordance with the karma of living beings.  What was applicable at the time of Tsongkhapa is not so karmically beneficial now so Tsongkhapa has given us Dorje Shugden practice instead.  Great Teachers such as Je Pabongkhapa, Trijang Rinpoche and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso have said that Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden are both emanations of Manjushri - they are the same mental continuum. My question is: why trust the Dalai Lama over Trijang Rinpoche?  Trijang Rinpoche taught the Dalai Lama everything he knows about Dharma, even though he doesn't really teach Dharma these days. I'd trust his views over the Dalai Lama's any day.

[dsiluvu]

Dhogyal is not applicable to the great school founded by the illuminating king of dharma Tsongkapa. Tsongkapa the all Knowing Himself appointed Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishravana as protectors of the Three Scopes. Why not TRUST Tsongkapa?

Dhogyal is not applicable practice to Gelugs or anyone. Since you place faith in these 'deities' or deities by virtue of your faith in certain lamas' words, why pick some lamas over Tsongkapa?

Dorje Shugden arose as the principal Protector of Lama Tsongkhapa’s doctrine about 350 years ago, at the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, who composed the first verses of praise to him.
Tagphu Pemavajra was famed for his special ability to astral travel and one day, he travelled to Tushita Heaven, where Lama Tsongkhapa resides. There, he requested the Buddhist ascended master Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to expound the mystical teachings and practice of Dorje Shugden.
For the first time ever, Dorje Shugden’s full entourage and mandala emanated out from under Lama Tsongkhapa’s throne. Dorje Shugden then transmitted the practice directly to Tagphu Pemavajra, just as the Buddha Maitreya had transmitted five major philosophical treatises to the master Asanga in Tushita Heaven in earlier times.

So yes we are following Lama Tsongkhapa since Dorje Shugden resides under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne protecting the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa. AND YES it is an Dorje Shugden is applicable only until the Dalai Lama banned it. Other wise is was practiced for about 350 years!



Well shouldn't you believe and trust Tsongkapa more than Trijang Rinpoche?  ::)How many of you have met Trijang Rinpoche? None right? Unless you are 80 years old. Trijang Rinpoche is your lineage guru and you should trust? Well so is Tsongkapa. Tsongkapa is your lineage guru also. Why choose Trijang over Tsongkapa? Illogical bias?

I see Lama Tsongkhapa and Trijang Rinpoche as one. It is said that the blessings are stronger based on the length of time of how close they are to you... hence the blessings would be strongest from my current Guru. So actually, Tsongkhapa, Trijang Rinpoche and my Guru is one, so in this case, we trust all and we choose all, they are one and not separated. There is no difference except the difference man chose to make it to be like what you are doing due to your own perceptions. But to impose your ideas and perception on others is not very skillful and influential.

Trust Tsongkapa. Without Tsongkapa there would be no Trijang and all those masters. Full stop. Stop Dhogyal and pick up with Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishrava as they have zero controversies-ALL ACCEPT THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED. 
   
Correct we do trust Tsongkhapa and Lama Tsongkhapa was blessed by Manjushri who Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen who is Dorje Shugden. Hence why don't you ask why not trust the one who blessed Tsongkhapa who is Manjushri? And which we are... ta dah! and surprise surprise we also do Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishrave all with no problems, no controversies.

Also Dorje Shugden's previous incarnation was Panchen Sonam Drakpa and his academic books and teachings of Nagarjuna’s precious philosophy of the Middle Way are still being taught and learn by the sanghas of Gelug schools soooo aren't they like actually studying Dorje Shugden's teachings, why do they like not continue studying from Dorje SHugden?  So in other words... they do accept Dorje Shugden and trust him too 

[dsiluvu]

Oh I forgot to bold my Final points... can't do that incase you did not see it, so here it is again... 

Correct we do trust Tsongkhapa and Lama Tsongkhapa was blessed by Manjushri who Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen who is Dorje Shugden. Hence why don't you ask why not trust the one who blessed Tsongkhapa who is Manjushri? And which we are... ta dah! and surprise surprise we also do Kalarupa, Mahakala and Vaishrave all with no problems, no controversies.

Also Dorje Shugden's previous incarnation was Panchen Sonam Drakpa and his academic books and teachings of Nagarjuna’s precious philosophy of the Middle Way are still being taught and learn by the sanghas of Gelug schools soooo aren't they like actually studying Dorje Shugden's teachings, why do they like not continue studying from Dorje SHugden?  So in other words... they do accept Dorje Shugden and trust him too 

[donoharm]

@Tenzin Gyaltso,

I am only 37years old.  I am lucky enough to meet   His Holiness Previous Trijang Rinpoche la at Ganchen Kyishong in Dharamsala India.  and the Current HH Trijang chocktrul rinpoche  few times.  You don't have to be 80years old FYI.

Your question  " why choose  Trijang rinpoche over Je Tsongkhapa"     Seriously,  what kinda of question is that?   it's like me asking you..   " Why choose dalai lama over Chenrezig" 

"People like you that creates all kinds of problems within our tibetan people and our pure geluk lineage. "

I am tibetan and most of us consider "Dalai Lama is regarded as the principal incarnation of Chenrezig and Trijang rinpoche is regarded as the principal incarnation of Je Tsongkapa.

For me  HH Trijang rinpoche is Je Tsongkhapa and i can see him in person. 

"Je Tsongkhapa, known as the "Jewel Ornament of the Sages of the Land of Snow", he was the founder of the Gelug tradition or New Kadam lineage.  As the sixty-fourth successor of Je Tsongkhapa's throne he was known as Tri Jangchub Choephel, whose name in short form is Trijang and has remained with the line of the Trijang Rinpoche until this day."

Long live His Holiness Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche   and free Dorje shugden.....

[DharmaSpace]

The lama who arose as Dorje Shugden was a Gelugpa lama of the highest calibre and enligthened, who was the recognised incarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa, Buton Rinpoche, Birwapa and Duldzin who was at the same level in terms of attainments as Je Tsongkhapa himself.

The lamas who are now practicing Dorje Shugden are coming from the lineage of Je Tsongkhapa. Gelug lamas are famous for their debates and analytical thinking, and if Dorje Shugden is indeed harmful the practised would have never been adopted by the Gelug tradition at all. I am sure Dorje Shugden as a protector has been more than once debated at the monk's debate courtyard. And they can find no fault in the protector.

We do not practice for it to be controversial, we practice it because we have faith in our gurus and that this practice will lead us towards enlightenment, is beneficial  and is proven to be effective. The 14th Dalai Lama made the right choice to trust Trijang Rinpoche (who requested for Dorje Shudgen oracle to take trance) to leave   Tibet, if the Dalai Lama had trusted Nechung which is equally controversial, we would not have the Dalai lama anymore.

Dorje Shugden is clairvoyant surely he could see the Dalai Lama would create a ban for Dorje SHugden. If Dorje Shugden were not working hand in hand with the Dalai Lama, then Dorje Shugden as a negative spirit would have advised the Dalai Lama to stay. The Dalai Lama would not have lived to such a ripe age like now.  Dorje Shugden prolongs the Dalai lama's life.