EXPLOSIVE ARTICLE! The Karmapas and the Forbidden Buddha

[beggar]

Forgive my naiveté everyone, but why can't there be two Karmapas? Is it not possible for a Master who has achieved the 3 bodies of a Buddha to appear in more than one aspect? Most certainly! Wouldn't it be harmonious and give rise to unbelievable benefits and beauty for both sides to have pure view and respect for both? Is Money and reputation and power really worth the damage this conflict has done? So strange.

Ho ho! Of course there could be two karmapas, there can be an infinite number of karmapas! Just the same with the two panchen lamas. It's amusing to think that all of us silly little beings, governments and the like, try to restrict the numbers or incarnation of tulkus in the world. This can be likened to the way that the tibetan government has also tried to ban the incarnation of tulkus throughout history - imagine! trying to ban Manjushri from incarnating into the world (there's an article on this, with many examples: Banning of Tulkus in History: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/banning-of-tulkus-in-history/)

Even if the name and the incarnation lineage is severed, the being will still return again to benefit beings with a different name. Will the government also try to hunt down all these other incarnations and ban them? and what if they appear in another religion? Or even as an aetheist? It's impossible!

In any case, in this day and age, it does seem slightly ridiculous that the secular government (and yes, the CTA are indeed the secular body - this has been made clear by the Dalai Lama himself), would be "deciding" upon the validity of an incarnated lama and endorsing the "right one", such a very spiritual matter. Either they validate them all - according to what is decreed by the respective high lamas within each school - or they don't validate any of them. Once they start putting their fingers in pies - acknowledging and supporting one, but not another, 'affirming' that one religious practice is good or not - that can only be called unnecessary interference. (again, another article on this, a powerful one about just how much damage the interferences have caused: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/is-it-interference/)

[Ensapa]

Forgive my naiveté everyone, but why can't there be two Karmapas? Is it not possible for a Master who has achieved the 3 bodies of a Buddha to appear in more than one aspect? Most certainly! Wouldn't it be harmonious and give rise to unbelievable benefits and beauty for both sides to have pure view and respect for both? Is Money and reputation and power really worth the damage this conflict has done? So strange.

On a spiritual level, there is absolutely no problem with 2 karmapas, but on a secular level, there is a problem because who would take control of Rumtek? It is like the karma kagyu's potala palace/namgyal as all the treasures of the past karmapas and karma kagyus are stored there. The Karmapa that controls rumtek inherits a lot of money as well as treasures and precious relics. If there was 2 karmapas, it would be difficult to split rumtek as well as the sponsors who were the students of the 16th karmapa. It was never a spiritual issue but more or less a logistic/secular issue that is being made into an issue under the guise of a spiritual dilemma. If Rumtek was suddenly confiscated or impounded by the indian government, you'll see that the issue would suddenly dissolve itself and all of a sudden both karmapas are recognized

[psylotripitaka]

Thanks Ensapa, that puts some real perspective on it in more ways than one. Still, you'd think these people would be able to come up with a virtuous solution that doesn't involve violence.

[Ensapa]

Thanks Ensapa, that puts some real perspective on it in more ways than one. Still, you'd think these people would be able to come up with a virtuous solution that doesn't involve violence.

then there is also the Dalai Lama's intervention into the whole affair when he endorsed Tai Situpa's candidate and is silent about Thaye Dorje. However in the recent few years, it seems that Tai Situpa and the Sharmapa has reconciled and both Thaye Dorje and Orgyen Trinley can be seen doing pujas side by side during the Kagyu Monlams. Over the past centuries, we can say that the karma kagyus who were once the ruling party over Tibet (after gaining the favor of the monguls as well as the Chinese) were basically sidelined by the Ganden Phodrang and they were suppressed. This means that the emergence of the Karmapa's reincarnation did not require the Dalai Lama's approval or endorsement. But in the light of the 2 karmapas, the Dalai Lama showing endorsement only to one karmapa and not the other is causing cracks within the karma kagyu who is already struggling to come to terms that there are 2 emanations of their leader.

[lotus1]

It shows clearly that politics has influence on the Buddhism matters. Indeed it is very sad to see that due to political reasons, there are such differentiation and split between the Buddhist society.

Buddhism is promoting peace, harmony and loving kindness. However, why the leaders are doing otherwise? I sincerely hope that His Holiness Dalai Lama & the CTA would do something different now especially all the circular matter should be handled by CTA leading by Dr Lobsang Sangay while HHDL would focus on the role as the spiritual leader. If Tibet wants to be free and to be independence, they should really work on unite their people first.

[Ensapa]

While I hear that many karma kagyus are accepting both karmapas as the real karmapa, and that they do not take sides after trying hard to reconcile over the years, the one thing that would potentially throw them out of balance is that the Dalai Lama/CTA not endorsing Thaye Dorje as the Karmapa because the CTA has painted a picture of the Dalai Lama being the pope of Buddhism and he has to approve each and every incarnation including of other schools, and this might cause some people to think that Thaye Dorje is the fake karmapa, thus causing division and confusion within the karma kagyu school. Why not just endorse both and promote harmony for them?

[DSFriend]

The dividing line is so great that HHDL would have no relations with Trinley Thaye Dorje. Is Trinley Thaye Dorje's teachings corrupted Buddhism? I don't think so.

The dividing line is so great against Shugden and non-Shugden monks. Are the Shugden monks' teachings corrupted Buddhism when they all came from the same monastery as in the example of Gaden Shartse (which subsequently split and divided into Shar Gaden) Furthermore, the teachings all sprung from the same lineage masters such as H.H. Trijang Rinpoche.

So why is HHDL displaying such strong acceptance towards one and rejection of the other when he is Avalokiteshvara? Or it doesn't really matter at the end of the day but be devoted to your own lineage and the gurus from whom you have received the practices.

[Ensapa]

The dividing line is so great that HHDL would have no relations with Trinley Thaye Dorje. Is Trinley Thaye Dorje's teachings corrupted Buddhism? I don't think so.

The dividing line is so great against Shugden and non-Shugden monks. Are the Shugden monks' teachings corrupted Buddhism when they all came from the same monastery as in the example of Gaden Shartse (which subsequently split and divided into Shar Gaden) Furthermore, the teachings all sprung from the same lineage masters such as H.H. Trijang Rinpoche.

So why is HHDL displaying such strong acceptance towards one and rejection of the other when he is Avalokiteshvara? Or it doesn't really matter at the end of the day but be devoted to your own lineage and the gurus from whom you have received the practices.

for our ordinary minds who can only perceive this from a worldly perspective, it cold be that the Dalai Lama wants to groom the 17th Karmapa into taking over his place. Perhaps Thaye Dorje is too wild for him to be his sucessor, but Orgyen Trinley is just right. Perhaps Orgyen Trinley can give him something Thaye Dorje cant: Information on the Chinese. But in any case, CTA and the Dalai Lama's decision to endorse Orgyen Trinley does not help mend the rift between the Sharmapa and Tai Situpa. In reality, Rumtek is just another building, and the most important thing is for both Karmapas to teach Dharma. Perhaps, the more people know about this controversy, the more they wake up from a personality cult they think Buddhism is that they are not even aware of, as the 16th Karmapa did draw in a lot of people.

[Losang_Tenpa]

Found this interesting picture:

The King of Bhutan with the 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje.

[Ensapa]

Found this interesting picture:

The King of Bhutan with the 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje.

Hmm. That's interesting. Why is it that the Bhutanese royal family is endorsing Thaye Dorje? I heard that Tai Situpa is also given a Bhutanese passport by Bhutan and so is the Sharmapa and Thaye Dorje. But traditionally, the Bhutanese are the Drukpa Kagyus which would not have anything much to do with the Karma Kagyus due to the geographical distance. But with this picture, it seems that the Bhutanese royal family prefers Thaye Dorje over Orgyen Trinley...there hasnt been much news of Orgyen Trinley of late...he has gone quiet after all the Indian troubles...

[WisdomBeing]

Just wanted to share that i just noticed there were 7,327 likes and 142 shares on this article on Dorje Shugden's facebook https://www.facebook.com/DuldzinDorjeShugden! That's pretty amazing stuff!

[Ensapa]

Actually, this issue did make me think a lot because most of what was going on about the karmapa issue is something that is not needed because 1) It is widely accepted in all traditions of Tibetan Buddhism that a Lama can have 5 simultaneous emanations but only the mind emanation is enthroned as the principal emanation aka inherit the title of the lama, so why cant both Karmapas be valid, both emanations of different aspects of the 16th Karmapa? and 2) There are numerous reports out there that the Sharmapa has accepted Orgyen Trinley as the Karmapa as well, and Tai Situ accepting Thaye Dorje as well, so shouldnt this issue resolve itself by now?

The only thing that has surfaced now is that the assistants of Tai Situpa has once again caused him in trouble due to deceiving the Indian government, but that would be temporary.

[Ensapa]

It's actions like these that cause people to be divided and sow the seeds of confusion and misinformation in people...

CTA should also offer one to Thaye Dorje too, to show that they're not using the Karmapa as a puppet.

CTA offers tenshug to the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa Rinpoche
Phayul[Tuesday, February 05, 2013 13:25]


The 17th Gyalwa Karmapa Rinpoche presides over the tenshug offering ceremony by the Central Tibetan Administration on February 4, 2013.

DHARAMSHALA, February 5: The Department of Religion and Culture of the Central Tibetan Administration in Dharamshala offered a long life prayer ceremony (Tenshug) to Gyalwa Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje, Monday.

The tenshug offering was held at the Gyuto monastery near the exile Tibetan headquarters. The 17th Karmapa has lived close to His Holiness the Dalai Lama since his escape from China occupied Tibet at the turn of the new millennium.

Monks of the Gyuto Monastery recited prayers as Kalon Pema Chhinjor made the ceremonial offerings, beseeching Gyalwa Karmapa Rinpoche to continue blessing and guiding the Tibetan people in particular and the all beings in general.

Hundreds of Tibetans and foreigners, along with the two Kagyu Members of Parliament and Secretaries of the Departmens of Religion and Culture and Home of CTA also attended the ceremony.

At 27, Gyalwa Karmapa Rinpoche is the most prominent teacher of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism and one of the most widely followed and respected Buddhist teachers.

Speaking to reporters following the ceremony, Kalon Chhinjor said the tenshug offering to Gyalwa Karmapa Rinpoche was part of the Department of Religion and Culture’s initiative to conduct long life prayer offerings to all prominent lamas of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism and the ancient Tibetan religion of Bon.

Kalon Chhinjor remarked on the deep and ancient bond that the Tibetan lamas and the Tibetan people share and the important role that religion plays in the life of the Tibetan people.

The Department of Religion and Culture has offered tenshug to the 41st Sakya Trizin Rinpoche, the 102nd Gaden Tripa, the 33rd Menri Trizin Rinpoche, Drikung Kyabgon Chetsang Rinpoche and Kyabje Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.