The Essence of the Controversy with a Few Frank Questions

[psylotripitaka]

I wrote the following post in response to writings by a member calling themselves Tenzin Gyatso, and though it is directed as such, it is really an open letter to any member of this site that is anti-Shugden. To the rest of you, please excuse my multiple posting of this but I've wanted to express it for some time.



The Essence of the Controversy with a Few Frank Questions

Tenzin Gyatso, it is important to get an objective perspective on the controversy, looking at it from the outside without an emotionally charged interest in either party. Such perspective sees that actions speak for themselves. I stepped back and had a good look, and saw how easy it is for people to get so emotionally fired up they miss the point completely.

Though there are many facets to the controversy, the fact of the matter is, the main and most important thing to acknowledge is it boils down to very well-documented religious and human rights abuses. It is so strange to me how a person can be so obsessed with a popular personality that they refuse to see how what is actually going on is totally inappropriate, destructive, and disrespectful. When we look at the situation objectively, here is what you typically see:

One group of people(Group A) - through coercion, death threats, economic threats, shrine and home destruction, ostracism and so forth - forcing another group of people(Group B) to stop their religious practices and give up their human rights.

Group B peacefully communicates the damage being done and requests the forced ban to be lifted; they peacefully and repeatedly request open dialogue and clarification; they peacefully demonstrate to encourage Group A to stop their abusive and destructive campaign; they provide excessive valid logical reasons for their religious views and so forth.

Group A disregards all these things, and quite simply engages in actions that clearly contradict the BuddhaDharma; contradict basic human and religious rights; and contradict common sense.

If some popular teacher came along and told Christians they had to stop believing in Christ and gave all sorts of ridiculous superstitious reasons why they have to do this and constantly contradicted themselves in the process, then forced the ban through various illegal and harmful actions, only someone who was not in their right mind would think this is ok. I mean Jeezus, this isn't rocket science people.

I can understand why some people (out of fear of the extensive negative repercussions of not doing so) would tow the party line and go along with the ban. However, to those free thinkers who are not necessarily impacted directly by the negative consequences to ones life of not abandoning their religious right, people all over the world with objective common sense are forced to ask the question - wtf is wrong with these people?

So I'm asking you directly Tenzin Gyatso, in the light of so much evidence and sincere objective contemplation of the situation at hand, how is it possible for a "Buddhist" to look at this situation and be so intensely supportive of actions that completely contradict the Dharma and cause intense harm to living beings?

I ask, because when I give a non-biased explanation of the circumstances to non-Buddhist friends of mine, its a no-brainer for them. So do please explain to all of us here reading your posts, as a Buddhist who strongly supports all the intense non-virtue arisen from this ban, how have you come to have complete disregard for empirical evidence of human and religious rights abuse? How have you come to the conclusion that this shit is ok for Buddhists to do? Seriously, all the deity/demon stuff and who's who aside(totally irrelevant really), the reality of abuse laid bare, how can anyone in their right mind think this shit is ok?

The controversy really isn't about Dorje Shugden after all, it's about Freedom vs. a Destruction of Freedom that has destroyed the reputation of Buddhadharma and the faith and lives of many.

Seriously Tenzin Gyatso, why is it so hard for Buddhists to be kind? I know, it sounds fucking crazy right!

It doesn't have to be like this.

With Much Sincere Love,
psylotripitaka

[beggar]

BRAVO Psylotripitaka, thank you for your views. What a fantastic letter, so eloquently and excellently put. I couldn't have said it better.

This is what has always astounded me - that the people of group A do all this in the name of preserving religious purity (whatever that means to them!) and out of their loyalty to the Dalai Lama.

Okay, so, sure. They're devoted to the Dalai Lama and follow his instructions to stop the practice of Dorje Shugden. But if they're so devoted, and love the Dalai Lama so much, then is this how they reflect him as their Guru? That they would desecrate other people's items of religious worship, physically and emotionally hurt other fellow Buddhists and fellow Tibetans?  Where is the Buddhism in that? Where is the kindness, tolerance and the 8 verses of mind transformation - all qualities that the Dalai Lama passionately teaches all the time.

We are taught that we should view our enemies with compassion, and we must be even kinder to people who are doing supposedly "wrong" and "bad" things because we wish to help them. We shouldn't go out of our way to make their lives even more miserable - isn't this common sense?! So why is it that followers of the Dalai Lama - the world's most famous monk, and a Nobel Peace Laureate - acting in such opposite ways that are so harmful, so unloving, so destructive? Again, is this how they reflect a Guru they supposedly admire so much?

Psylotripitaka, I totally agree with you that at the crux of the issue and when we put aside all claims of spirits and demons and all the rest of it, it comes down to a basic question of human and religious rights and freedoms. At an even more fundamental basis, it's about how humans treat other humans - a humanistic question. If we can't even answer that satisfactorily, then forget about even talking about being Buddhists or supporters of the Dalai Lama.

[vajratruth]

Excellent post Psylotripitaka, and you nailed it on the head. For the longest time and even before I personally started propitiating Dorje Shugden, I searched hard to find some common and religious logic to substantiate the ban and frankly I could not find any. Not then, and even less so now. I might be able to understand how the Tibetan people would want to obey the Dalai Lama out of blind faith but I do not see the same kind of faith in His Holiness when it comes to question of Tibet's independence.

Take the Tibetan Youth Congress for instance. They were only too eager to enforce the Shugden ban and went to the extent of conducting door to door witch hunts and yet they have thus far ignored the Dalai Lama's wish for Tibet to abandon its demand for outright independence from China and instead take the "Middle Way" approach. So, in fact they do not have that much devotion to the Dalai Lama after all.

I especially like what you wrote about how it was a no-brainer for your non-Buddhist friends to grasp the unfairness of the situation. It seems that Buddhism, instead of giving clarity to those who participated in the persecutions or otherwise stood by idly and allowed it to happen, have clouded their sense of what is right and what is clearly wrong.  We all know that Buddhism is supposed to instill practitioners with more wisdom and compassion, not less. There are many countries and communities in the world who treat those proven of their crime with more fairness and humanity, than the Tibetan people have treated innocent Shugden worshippers.

What astounds me is the behaviour of the CTA. Not only did the government fail to preserve the basic rights of their people, the CTA even participated in the persecutions, with the ex-Prime Minister Samdhong Rinpoche, a monk himself, calling for the Tibetan people not to be afraid of inflicting violence on Shugden practitioners. Dr Lobsang Sangay is no better. How come the CTA has managed to get away with such blatant disregard for their own constitution and laws? Even more important, how can anyone not see that the actions resulting from the ban are all contrary to the Dharma?

[Ensapa]

Like I have mentioned in the other thread, the controversy isnt really about Dorje Shugden because there is so little facts against Dorje Shugden that most of it had to be fabricated. It is more about the attitudes of the followers of the Dalai Lama and how it affects people around them and psylotripitaka had wrapped that up in a nice and concise letter. In that sense, the ban separates people who are Buddhist because they are truly interested in the Buddhist practice and its application, or that the are Buddhist for some other reasons or that they are simply following out of blind faith and who does not put Dharma into practice. Perhaps that would be the objective of the ban...

[psylotripitaka]

When we look at the history of Buddhists in Tibetan culture, it is unfortunate to see how far "Buddhists" are willing to do for good reputation, high positions, money, property, power and control over others, and a higher head count than the other group! What a great lesson from the Guru of what to abandon, what not to do, how not to behave. A powerful object of our own consciousness manifested by the Guru to stimulate realizations in our minds.

When we look at the history of Buddhists around the world following the start of the ban, it is unfortunate to see how far "Buddhists" are willing to do in the name of something they haven't researched objectively or stopped to use common sense before acting. One woman even explained to me how her Lama had them do wrathful "Buddhist" rituals to kill some Dorje Shugden practitioners "because they were doing practices against us" and some people actually died. I heard that and was like 'wwwwhaaaaat?' I thought to myself, 'I really need to get out of samsara so I can help these poor people'. Seriously, it's like, this is literally the same type of mentality of people who think its ok to brutally gang rape a woman to death.

Then you have these people taking away flyers(stealing) for teaching programs or talking shit about (divisive speech) a spiritual community to the owners of a teaching venue or retreat facility (causing a schism in the sangha). These people actually probably feel they're doing this out of compassion, but lets face it, compassion without wisdom leads to flawed actions. Compassion + Wisdom = Skillful Means. At the Mad Hatter's Tea Party in Alice in Wonderland, the March Hare says 'aaah, if you don't think, you shouldn't speak'. 

There's a thread asking if we'd stop our Dorje Shugden practice if our Lama asked us to. This same logic applies here...if our Lama asks us to kill others, put up death threat flyers with peoples pictures, obstruct Dharma activities through slander and spreading as much negative gossip as possible about some people, would you do it? Some of you answered you'd do it without question!

There is nothing wrong with questioning authority and asking for explanations. There is nothing wrong with doing our research and getting an objective perspective. If it contradicts the teachings, we should act in accordance with the Dharma.

Many of these people are so emotionally wrapped up with their positions and money and power over others and....that it is very difficult to change their minds and actions. Pressure will eventually force them to change. I know it looks like the pressure is coming from people such as the Western Shugden Society and China and India and Nepal and he people, but the pressure is really the feet of Dorje Shugden's snow lion stepping on their inner enemies.

Let's never forget people do not have faults, they have delusions and delusions have faults. The wrath of the Protectors is aimed at the inner enemies of living beings.

[Ensapa]

When we look at the history of Buddhists in Tibetan culture, it is unfortunate to see how far "Buddhists" are willing to do for good reputation, high positions, money, property, power and control over others, and a higher head count than the other group! What a great lesson from the Guru of what to abandon, what not to do, how not to behave. A powerful object of our own consciousness manifested by the Guru to stimulate realizations in our minds.

When we look at the history of Buddhists around the world following the start of the ban, it is unfortunate to see how far "Buddhists" are willing to do in the name of something they haven't researched objectively or stopped to use common sense before acting. One woman even explained to me how her Lama had them do wrathful "Buddhist" rituals to kill some Dorje Shugden practitioners "because they were doing practices against us" and some people actually died. I heard that and was like 'wwwwhaaaaat?' I thought to myself, 'I really need to get out of samsara so I can help these poor people'. Seriously, it's like, this is literally the same type of mentality of people who think its ok to brutally gang rape a woman to death.

Wow. this is interesting. it sounded as if the Dharma practice was done to increase and protect one's ego rather than to serve others and focus outside. In general I believe that all Lamas are good, but i wouldnt say that all of them are perfect and some of them do make 'mistakes' (but i will not see my own Guru in that way, either. I see his mistakes as examples and as his humility) and I'll just think, too bad for the disciples who never checked properly beforehand. You're right, the mentality is the same.

Then you have these people taking away flyers(stealing) for teaching programs or talking shit about (divisive speech) a spiritual community to the owners of a teaching venue or retreat facility (causing a schism in the sangha). These people actually probably feel they're doing this out of compassion, but lets face it, compassion without wisdom leads to flawed actions. Compassion + Wisdom = Skillful Means. At the Mad Hatter's Tea Party in Alice in Wonderland, the March Hare says 'aaah, if you don't think, you shouldn't speak'. 

People you just described are exactly the same kind of evangelists who believe that they are doing the world a favor and God a favor by "saving"/converting as many people as they can: deluded. And usually they lack a Lama to guide them at the same time. They are not doing it for others, they're doing it for their own ego and insecurities.

There's a thread asking if we'd stop our Dorje Shugden practice if our Lama asked us to. This same logic applies here...if our Lama asks us to kill others, put up death threat flyers with peoples pictures, obstruct Dharma activities through slander and spreading as much negative gossip as possible about some people, would you do it? Some of you answered you'd do it without question!

There is nothing wrong with questioning authority and asking for explanations. There is nothing wrong with doing our research and getting an objective perspective. If it contradicts the teachings, we should act in accordance with the Dharma.

Actually the context is a bit different. In the thread, the context of it is that the Lama as the spiritual guide has a say in our spiritual practice. If he asks us to do secular things, then obviously he has to provide a good explanation on why beforehand. I dont think a real and qualified lama would encourage negative actions like these. Again, it is the students' duty to check the Lama out before committing. If they skipped that, the only have themselves to blame.

Many of these people are so emotionally wrapped up with their positions and money and power over others and....that it is very difficult to change their minds and actions. Pressure will eventually force them to change. I know it looks like the pressure is coming from people such as the Western Shugden Society and China and India and Nepal and he people, but the pressure is really the feet of Dorje Shugden's snow lion stepping on their inner enemies.

If they were not wrapped up in those, they would have focused on their Dharma practice as opposed to spending time and busying themselves with trapping and downgrading others and other unbuddhistic actions.

Let's never forget people do not have faults, they have delusions and delusions have faults. The wrath of the Protectors is aimed at the inner enemies of living beings.
yup and always have forgiveness and never hold grudges....

i really love what you have written here as it kind of reflects the whole situation and the people involved. It is always good and interesting to see things from the perspective of someone who is more experienced.

[dsiluvu]

Oh my my psylotripitaka... I think you have just ripped out our hearts and said exactly how most of us have been feeling and thinking all these years!!! Very powerful words and thank you for spewing it out so directly and honest! Please do send this letter/frank questions of yours to the UN, Indian authorities, and especially CTA... I am sure they will loveeeee your fabulously written frank questions!!!

When we look at the history of Buddhists in Tibetan culture, it is unfortunate to see how far "Buddhists" are willing to do for good reputation, high positions, money, property, power and control over others, and a higher head count than the other group! What a great lesson from the Guru of what to abandon, what not to do, how not to behave. A powerful object of our own consciousness manifested by the Guru to stimulate realizations in our minds.

When we look at the history of Buddhists around the world following the start of the ban, it is unfortunate to see how far "Buddhists" are willing to do in the name of something they haven't researched objectively or stopped to use common sense before acting. One woman even explained to me how her Lama had them do wrathful "Buddhist" rituals to kill some Dorje Shugden practitioners "because they were doing practices against us" and some people actually died. I heard that and was like 'wwwwhaaaaat?' I thought to myself, 'I really need to get out of samsara so I can help these poor people'. Seriously, it's like, this is literally the same type of mentality of people who think its ok to brutally gang rape a woman to death.

Then you have these people taking away flyers(stealing) for teaching programs or talking shit about (divisive speech) a spiritual community to the owners of a teaching venue or retreat facility (causing a schism in the sangha). These people actually probably feel they're doing this out of compassion, but lets face it, compassion without wisdom leads to flawed actions. Compassion + Wisdom = Skillful Means. At the Mad Hatter's Tea Party in Alice in Wonderland, the March Hare says 'aaah, if you don't think, you shouldn't speak'. 

There's a thread asking if we'd stop our Dorje Shugden practice if our Lama asked us to. This same logic applies here...if our Lama asks us to kill others, put up death threat flyers with peoples pictures, obstruct Dharma activities through slander and spreading as much negative gossip as possible about some people, would you do it? Some of you answered you'd do it without question!

Actually I have a question here for you... you see in Vajrayana Buddhism, especially in Tantra, you are suppose to follow your Guru's instructions without question. This is not to say it like a fanatical person in a cult but rather to test one's trust and devotion in the Guru who guides you to "enlightenment". Like how Samdhong Rinpoche followed His Guru Trijang Rinpoche's instructions to serve HHDL, and hence he was the previous PM but He mentioned clearly to us it was because His Guru told Him to do so. In the beginning we were not too please with Him but in the end when we found out his mind blowing reasons and amazing Guru devotion, we, I bow down to his humbleness... wow what an amazing act of devotion! No ordinary person can do this. So how would it work in this case with those who follow HHDL and hence gave up on their practice? Could they have turn around and say, well they are following their Guru's instructions too, no?

But I guess it is pretty easy for us to sus them out, because well look at the results of their practice and what they do... are they kinder, wiser, and open to others? Even the very basics of esthetics are not there. You can choose to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, it is not a problem, but just don't harm others and put a huge majority who does down until this discrimination spread in to other parts of the world.... I guess this is one way I check to see the bull behind it all.


There is nothing wrong with questioning authority and asking for explanations. There is nothing wrong with doing our research and getting an objective perspective. If it contradicts the teachings, we should act in accordance with the Dharma.

Many of these people are so emotionally wrapped up with their positions and money and power over others and....that it is very difficult to change their minds and actions. Pressure will eventually force them to change. I know it looks like the pressure is coming from people such as the Western Shugden Society and China and India and Nepal and he people, but the pressure is really the feet of Dorje Shugden's snow lion stepping on their inner enemies.

Let's never forget people do not have faults, they have delusions and delusions have faults. The wrath of the Protectors is aimed at the inner enemies of living beings.

True that... but not only pressure will force a change... so will our determination to push forth compassionately the truth and eh hmm advertise it to create awareness around the world. Nothing is stopping us from teaching other about Dorje Shugden. Take a count... there are more non-Buddhist than Buddhist in this world, and there are definitely more non-Vajrayana Buddhist than V-Buddhist in this world... we can create change just by creating awareness about Dorje Shugden and benefiting others... share with your kids, friends, and family about Dorje SHugden and his benefits... whether or not they will be practitioners is secondary, but at least they are aware of who he is and how Ds can help... so it is up to them. And later on when the ban is lifted and we talk more about Dorje Shugden, their imprints will ripen. These are positive ways to spread Dorje Shugden, weaken the ban because it does not have any affect on countries strong in democracy like the US and the UK and Europe and fabulous China (though they are not democratic yet)... then we have the nice fabulous letters also... like yours

[psylotripitaka]

Directing people to information about Dorje Shugden and all the abuse is useful, but it seems like there is a need to speak directly to people's common sense and conscience; to place more emphasis on imploring people to see reason and use their common sense.

Because there is so much information about the issue, it is very very easy for people's minds to get lost in the details of who said what and whether or not the ban is justified and so on that they miss the most important consideration in it all (as explained in my letter here),

It is wonderful and important that there is so much information, but above all we need to continuously get people to look at the real issue because everything else becomes irrelevant in that light. It doesn't matter what reasons are given by the Dalai Lama or CTA or whoever, you do not have the right to destroy the religious and human rights of others. It is harmful, and Buddha did not teach us to harm others did he.

Bottom line. If you support the ban via actions that exacerbate the schism and encourages many others to do the same, you support non-virtuous actions, no if's and's or but's about it, that is not how Buddhists should behave. It is non-conscientious, lacking sense of shame and consideration, one of the 5 actions of immediate retribution, lying, stealing, divisive speech, hurtful speech, malice, wrong view, resentment, anger, aggression...the list goes on and on and is a wheel of sharp weapons. I'd stop this shit immediately and start giving extensive apologies and doing purification practices and make every attempt to rectify the situation if I were you!

Look at that list. Such a useless heavy burden to put into your mind isn't it?

[Ensapa]

Directing people to information about Dorje Shugden and all the abuse is useful, but it seems like there is a need to speak directly to people's common sense and conscience; to place more emphasis on imploring people to see reason and use their common sense.

Because there is so much information about the issue, it is very very easy for people's minds to get lost in the details of who said what and whether or not the ban is justified and so on that they miss the most important consideration in it all (as explained in my letter here),

It is wonderful and important that there is so much information, but above all we need to continuously get people to look at the real issue because everything else becomes irrelevant in that light. It doesn't matter what reasons are given by the Dalai Lama or CTA or whoever, you do not have the right to destroy the religious and human rights of others. It is harmful, and Buddha did not teach us to harm others did he.

Bottom line. If you support the ban via actions that exacerbate the schism and encourages many others to do the same, you support non-virtuous actions, no if's and's or but's about it, that is not how Buddhists should behave. It is non-conscientious, lacking sense of shame and consideration, one of the 5 actions of immediate retribution, lying, stealing, divisive speech, hurtful speech, malice, wrong view, resentment, anger, aggression...the list goes on and on and is a wheel of sharp weapons. I'd stop this shit immediately and start giving extensive apologies and doing purification practices and make every attempt to rectify the situation if I were you!

Look at that list. Such a useless heavy burden to put into your mind isn't it?

There are just so many things that I want to co-relate here. It's not just about the Dorje Shugden issue, but as Buddhists in a whole. I have observed devout Buddhists acting worse than agnostics or people without a religion. It was in my old workplace and it really brought down the name of Buddhism as a whole in the workplace. Not surprisingly, these are the same type of Buddhists who are obsessed with being in the right tradition or to study only the purest form of the teachings (the Pali canon) and will not accept otherwise as they were not what the Buddha has thought. Back to the issue, the ban has literally filtered out the quality practitioners from the inferior ones, like how milk solids separate from the whey when acid is added into milk. This is very clear to me.

[psylotripitaka]

Ensapa, you mentioned something similar to the following another time and I've been wanting to respond:

"...the ban has literally filtered out the quality practitioners from the inferior ones, like how milk solids separate from the whey when acid is added into milk."

I believe this kind of thing should not be said. The circumstances are not black and white like that, especially to make such a broad statement. There are practitioners in the neutral zone and anti that have profound realizations (despite what appear to be actions that contradict Dharma), and the circumstances surrounding their beliefs, practice, and personal decisions with regard to Dorje Shugden and the ban are quite complex. The ban has complicated our spiritual lives and spiritual relationships, and it does not automatically follow that people who practice Dorje Shugden are "quality practitioners". When I look at my own mind throughout the day and my actions, I am ashamed to have a great deal more black stones than white, while some practitioners I know that are either neutral or totally support the ban are incredibly stable and constant in their virtue. If we have not greatly weakened the 8 worldly concerns and accomplished at least a good sense of renunciation, we certainly should not think of ourself as a quality practitioner as everything we do is polluted.

I just don't see the point in making such a statement.

[beggar]

I think this discussion about intention is an interesting one and one that I'm not quite sure how to "resolve" (if that's the right word?). Psylotripitaka brought up an interesting point about how people responded that they would just go off and kill someone if their Guru asked them to... I'm not sure I've ever heard of a genuine, compassionate Guru asking any student to do something like this but we have certainly heard of many instances where there are certain charismatic or spiritual leaders who have led their followers to committing atrocious things - the Japanese aum group's poison gas attack on the trains springs to mind, as does the many terrorist acts of recent decades.

The thing is, these people all truly and "sincerely" (at their level) believe that they are doing the right thing, the holiest and most virtuous thing. Their intentions, as it were, are "pure". That it THEIR way of showing their devotion and spiritual purity (as absurd as it all sounds).

So I've asked this question before and the answer was that to be in this situation itself comes from our individual karmas, to be led into faiths where we believe that wrong views are very good and correct. It is like being born as a snake who thinks it is good to kill - it's natural, and an inherent part of our nature, in fact. It is our unfortunate and terrible karma to be led into a rebirth where it is okay to commit terrible crimes. Our karma becomes to create more negative karma. - and not even know or think that there's anything negative about what we're doing. What an absolutely terrible place to be.

So how do we influence these types of "spiritual seekers" or groups in the right way? How do you point out to a snake that he is doing something wrong? Or can we only hope to bring them some respite and help in an indirect way, by planting positive karmic imprints with the prayer that they will open up at a later time so they can be led to correct and truly beneficial paths?

On a more relational level and in the context of the Dorje Shugden ban, it is, as you have rightly pointed out, how each of us individually contribute to bettering or worsening the situation for practitioners everywhere. I think we have to be careful about not falling into the trap of feeling very righteous and "good" as DS practitioners and end up becoming just like the very people who are discriminating against Shugden practitioners. Then it all just becomes a silly revenge kind of game.

I have found it helpful to just focus on how our individual behaviours vis -a-vis this ban reflects well or badly upon the "side" that we are on - do we reflect the Dalai Lama well (if we have chosen to follow HH's advice and stop the practice) or do we reflect Dorje Shugden and our own Shugden lamas well (if we have chosen to continue our practice). Our speech and actions should follow accordingly. If we really loved our lamas and practices (whichever that may be), then our action should accord as such. Ultimately then, there shouldn't really be any distinction in the behaviour between a real Dalai Lama student and a Shugden practitioner, should there?

[psylotripitaka]

Hi Beggar,

Very interesting points. I would say though, that if you combine your last sentence with what you're saying in the example about the karma of a snake, you see that out of love and devotion to the Dalai Lama people have acted and continue to act very inappropriately whether directly or indirectly instigated by the advice from the Dalai Lama regarding Dorje Shugden followers. One of way too many examples is what took place in NYC with 3000 very angry Tibetans descending on 800 peaceful protesters at the direct instigation of the Dalai Lama telling them to stop these people, them taking pictures of the Tibetans participating in the peaceful protest then making flyers with their pictures and encouraging violence and ostracism even in America. So childish, and really, like I said earlier, so strange that so-called "Buddhists" think it's justified to do this shit. Like you say though, they totally believe what they're doing is virtuous and right and they're "doing what their Guru tells them". From the pov of a general sense of devotion to the Lama, sure, not much difference between the two practitioners, BUT, from the pov of devotion based in wisdom and common sense and the quality of actions that follow, a very big difference.

Also, though they may regard their actions as virtuous, the fact there is intense anger, aggression, resentment, and actions clearly contradicting the Dharma and common sense about religious and human rights shows that they are quite different when compared to Group B. This is generally speaking of course, as I said, it is not completely black and white and even Buddhists peacefully protesting can have many delusions in their mind. The real line of difference is drawn where mind starts translating into verbal and physical actions: Group B, violent, Group B, peacefully asking some very logically valid points of the Dalai Lama.

Encouraging others to respect the Dalai Lama's wishes regarding Dorje Shugden seems virtuous, but it contributes to great non-virtue and schism in the international Buddhist community and destroys the reputation of holy Dharma. Making great effort to continue encouraging others to have a negative view of Dorje Shugden during talks or through writing seems virtuous, but it is really creating a culture of slander and schism in the international Buddhist community. It isn't as simple as 'we're just encouraging people not to rely on this Protector', it is proactively preventing harmony.

I would think that as practitioners, Lamas, and politicians with the welfare of others in their hands, we would be extremely concerned about the reputation of the BuddhaDharma and its community, not in the worldly sense, but out of a deep love, compassion, and wisdom that knows that a good reputation makes it much easier for people to develop faith and respect, and thereby enter progress on and complete the path to permanent freedom from this nightmare of samsara.

Is it not concerning that things such as the ban and the Karmapa feud have not only destroyed the spiritual lives of many practitioners, but has literally slammed the door in the face of many people who are in need of the medicine of Dharma? I do not mean any disrespect to the Lamas, and of course I cannot comprehend the vast skill of the Buddhas, but conventionally speaking, in light of what I just said, I would feel very ashamed of my actions and make an immediate effort to lift a ban that has cause ONLY suffering; I would accept responsibility for my behavior that is inappropriate by the standards of both Dharma and society and give a deep and sincere apology for what I'd done; and do everything in my power to re-establish a great harmony in the international Buddhist community, simply because I care about people and the reputation of Dharma and its community.

And why can't there be two Karmapas? Is it not possible for a Master who has achieved the 3 bodies of a Buddha to appear in more than one aspect? Wouldn't it be harmonious and give rise to unbelievable benefits and beauty for both sides to have pure view and respect? Is Money and reputation and power really worth the damage this conflict has done. Love is all you need, really. Like Israel and Palestine, just let it go and favor harmony, sincere apologies and so on.

I guess, alas, in samsara there will never be real peace, but we can certainly own up to our inappropriate behaviors and start practicing what we preach. There's nothing more damaging to reputation than to give such holy pure authentic teachings then acting the complete opposite. It's not rocket science my friends. Please change this situation.

[Ensapa]

Ensapa, you mentioned something similar to the following another time and I've been wanting to respond:

"...the ban has literally filtered out the quality practitioners from the inferior ones, like how milk solids separate from the whey when acid is added into milk."

I believe this kind of thing should not be said. The circumstances are not black and white like that, especially to make such a broad statement. There are practitioners in the neutral zone and anti that have profound realizations (despite what appear to be actions that contradict Dharma), and the circumstances surrounding their beliefs, practice, and personal decisions with regard to Dorje Shugden and the ban are quite complex. The ban has complicated our spiritual lives and spiritual relationships, and it does not automatically follow that people who practice Dorje Shugden are "quality practitioners". When I look at my own mind throughout the day and my actions, I am ashamed to have a great deal more black stones than white, while some practitioners I know that are either neutral or totally support the ban are incredibly stable and constant in their virtue. If we have not greatly weakened the 8 worldly concerns and accomplished at least a good sense of renunciation, we certainly should not think of ourself as a quality practitioner as everything we do is polluted.

I just don't see the point in making such a statement.

The statement that I have made is more or less in general and it somewhat reflects what the ban looks like in general. I dont consider myself as a good practitioner to be honest. I still have much, much more things to improve and apply to practice but when i compare Dorje Shugden practitioners and Gelugs that dont practice him, i do see a difference that is somewhat stark. Dorje Shugden practitioners seem to focus less on intercenter politics and more on other things. There are of course, the practitioners that decide to remain neutral on this issue and not comment or participate in this and focus on their own practice, and that itself is good as well.

[psylotripitaka]

Hi Ensapa,

I guess my point is that such comments detract from the main issue, especially when we can see that there are and have been many great practitioners who rely on Protectors other than Dorje Shugden. Likewise, I've seen a great deal of nonsense over the years with respect to administrative and social politics perpetuated by practitioners of Dorje Shugden too, so we need to be careful when making comments such as that. I feel it is more important to keep focussed on the main issue, which is the behaviors that are harming people and the reputation of Dharma. That is not to do with what Protector people are propitiating, it has to do with what appears to be a gross lack of common sense and consideration.

I distinctly recall the great Yogi and Scholar Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche saying in a teaching that if our teachers are acting inappropriately we need to respectfully speak up and ask them to explain themselves. So that is what I'm doing in this thread and elsewhere. I do not have qualms standing up and saying what I'm saying to the Lamas perpetuating this ban and the ensuing disharmony because their actions do not accord with the Dharma and basic human freedoms. While maintaining pure view, I am considering what is appearing to the human conventions of our world society and saying, this is very wrong and not only does it need to stop, but measures need to be taken immediately to improve the reputation of Buddhism in our world. Therefore, I mean no disrespect in saying this, but how can we sit in front of people teaching loving kindness and how true and powerful the Dharma is as a medicine for the suffering of the world, then turn around and perpetuate the exact opposite by continuing to maintain the ban, writing slanderous things about Dorje Shugden, and encouraging others to do the same and worse.

Seriously, this must be asked: How is it possible to not see how that destroys peoples faith and trust in the 3 Jewels? What is especially so perplexing about this to me is that we are talking about people who have mastered debate and logic based on compositions such as Commentary to Valid Cognition by Yogi Dharmakirti.

When people ask about this hypocritical behavior, we can only say so many times that 'it isn't the fault of the Dharma itself' before they turn away having lost respect for the Teachers behaving this way. After all, if we can't set a good example of how Dharma works wonders, why would people want to devote the amount of energy and change required to accomplish a path that clearly isn't working for people?

This brings tears to my eyes.

[psylotripitaka]

Hi Beggar,

A few posts back you said:

I'm not sure I've ever heard of a genuine, compassionate Guru asking any student to do something like this but we have certainly heard of many instances where there are certain charismatic or spiritual leaders who have led their followers to committing atrocious things - the Japanese aum group's poison gas attack on the trains springs to mind, as does the many terrorist acts of recent decades.

I would like to reiterate this story because it was perpetuated by someone regarded as a genuine, compassionate Guru.

"When we look at the history of Buddhists around the world following the start of the ban, it is unfortunate to see how far "Buddhists" are willing to go in the name of something they haven't thoroughly researched objectively or stopped to use common sense before acting. One woman even explained to me how her Lama had them do wrathful "Buddhist" rituals to kill some Dorje Shugden practitioners "because they were doing practices against us" and some people actually died."

"They were doing practices against us" was the reason. I know a huge amount of Dorje Shugden practitioners and have sat in on many private and group Protector pujas and never have I ever seen or heard anyone deciding "the intention of our practice today is to throw black magic at those Nyingmas down on such and such street." And even if I saw with my clairvoyance that certain people did do something, there are many stories of the power of compassion to avert curses, not to mention a huge plethora of practices for averting harm such as protection wheels, amulets, mantra recitations, reciting the Heart Sutra and so forth. Why kill people over it? Why not go over and give them a hug next time.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I want to point out that this circumstance arose from two things: the ban, and the subsequent slander and divisive speech about Dorje Shugden perpetuated throughout the international community.