Dorje Shugden's aspect: worldly or not?

[Zach]

Trijang Dorjechang says that Dorje Shugden shows the aspect of a worldly being. Je Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche says in his commentary that this is incorrect; that Dorje Shugden's aspect reveals all the stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra.

Any thoughts?

Conventionally yes Dorje Shugden does show the aspect of a worldly being, He manifests as is mentioned, But even this aspect demonstrates his good qualities as Geshe Kelsang says so there isn't any contradiction at all.

Both Trijang and GKG know the nature of Dorje Shugden is inseperable from that of Manjushri.

[thaimonk]

I agree with Zach's explanation. There is no contradiction.

Trijang Rinpoche says Shugden is in the ASPECT OF A WORLDY BEING NOT THAT HE IS A WORLDLY BEING in essence.

Shugden's body does clearly reveal the stages and paths to enlightenment starting with the round domed hat representing the infallible view of Nagarjuna and so on which Tsongkapa help dearly to and further elucidated.

Trijang Dorjechang says that Dorje Shugden shows the aspect of a worldly being. Je Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche says in his commentary that this is incorrect; that Dorje Shugden's aspect reveals all the stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra.

Any thoughts?

Conventionally yes Dorje Shugden does show the aspect of a worldly being, He manifests as is mentioned, But even this aspect demonstrates his good qualities as Geshe Kelsang says so there isn't any contradiction at all.

Both Trijang and GKG know the nature of Dorje Shugden is inseperable from that of Manjushri.

[Ensapa]

Lemme just add a colophon to those who are still confused by the concepts that have been explained by this thread.

Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being, by merit of his past lives and his attainments as he is the reincarnation of many highly esteemed masters, starting with Virupa, Sakya Pandita, Buton Rinpoche and so on. His body/form is that of a tsen or earthbound spirit, but at the same time shows the aspects of an enlightened being through his iconography as well as his attainments, emanations and power. Even though his body is that of a tsen, his mind is enlightened and not tainted by samsara, making him an enlightened being in the form of a tsen that emanated specifically to be close to us and to help us out.

[Big Uncle]

The very fact the teacher (Trijang R) and disciple (Geshe Kelsang)conflict in their thoughts about Shugden shows clearly Shugden creates conflicts.

I am sorry to not agree with Shugden being a proper vessel to propitiate. We can debate till the cows come home, but seriously. Who are we to believe? I personally choose the perspective of His Holiness Dalai Lama for the simple reasoning his 'arguments' against Shugden make more sense to me and many others.

Sorry but I want to bring this up again. I just want to know what is it in Dorje Shugden's practice that causes conflicts? From what I can see, it is actually the ban and CTA enforcing the ban that is causing all this conflict. There was no conflict prior to the Dorje Shugden ban.

Some people say that the calamities that befell Lhasa after the untimely demise of the High Lama Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was caused by Dorje Shugden. That was clearly untrue because the Dalai Lama along with some of the best ritual lamas of his time, the great Nyingma Lamas were unable to subdue Dorje Shugden. It was only when the Dalai Lama accepted him as a Dharma Protector that things calmed down. Therefore, scholars actually interpret this to mean that the calamities were not caused by the raging spirit but the horrible collective negative karma of the people of that time.

Even the infamous murder of the monk was alleged attributed to fanatical Dorje Shugden practitioner. There were no arrests and it was basically an inconclusive case. Even if it was proven to be caused by a Dorje Shugden practitioner, it has got nothing to do with the deity and practice. Therefore, there's really nothing we can pin down to Dorje Shugden as the main instigator of conflict. Therefore, Tenzin Gyatso, what you say is refuted and you cannot say that it is clear that Dorje Shugden causes conflict. That's definitely NOT TRUE. I just wanted to make this clear.

[Ensapa]

The very fact the teacher (Trijang R) and disciple (Geshe Kelsang)conflict in their thoughts about Shugden shows clearly Shugden creates conflicts.

I am sorry to not agree with Shugden being a proper vessel to propitiate. We can debate till the cows come home, but seriously. Who are we to believe? I personally choose the perspective of His Holiness Dalai Lama for the simple reasoning his 'arguments' against Shugden make more sense to me and many others.

Sorry but I want to bring this up again. I just want to know what is it in Dorje Shugden's practice that causes conflicts? From what I can see, it is actually the ban and CTA enforcing the ban that is causing all this conflict. There was no conflict prior to the Dorje Shugden ban.

Some people say that the calamities that befell Lhasa after the untimely demise of the High Lama Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was caused by Dorje Shugden. That was clearly untrue because the Dalai Lama along with some of the best ritual lamas of his time, the great Nyingma Lamas were unable to subdue Dorje Shugden. It was only when the Dalai Lama accepted him as a Dharma Protector that things calmed down. Therefore, scholars actually interpret this to mean that the calamities were not caused by the raging spirit but the horrible collective negative karma of the people of that time.

Even the infamous murder of the monk was alleged attributed to fanatical Dorje Shugden practitioner. There were no arrests and it was basically an inconclusive case. Even if it was proven to be caused by a Dorje Shugden practitioner, it has got nothing to do with the deity and practice. Therefore, there's really nothing we can pin down to Dorje Shugden as the main instigator of conflict. Therefore, Tenzin Gyatso, what you say is refuted and you cannot say that it is clear that Dorje Shugden causes conflict. That's definitely NOT TRUE. I just wanted to make this clear.

Why blame something when something bad happens? blaming something means that we reject the Buddha's teaching on karma. Everything that happens to us is a result of our karma and should not be blamed on an existing entity. The very act of blaming something or someone is like saying that when something bad happens, it is not a result of our karma but it is because of a 3rd party that caused it. To blame what happened on Dorje Shugden or Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen would negate the law of karma which the Buddha teaches and also negates the fact that Dharma attainments can be carried forward to the next life and beyond for someone who was one of the 84 mahasiddhas to become a demon?! where is the logic?...if that is the case then why even bother to practice the teachings?