How are we fighting our battle?

[honeydakini]

I chanced upon this comment on Kate's wall, from someone I'd never met on Facebook and thought it'd be good to share it with everyone here:

I'm not a Dorje Shugden practitioner and admittedly have not done a ton of reading on the matter from both sides to feel like I have much of a grasp on the whole controversy, but what little I have read gives me the sense that this dispute essentially arises from ancient Tibetan *political* conflicts and as such always seems an odd thing for American sangha who are not DS practitioners to put much energy towards. What's all this got to do with anything in contemporary America? So, that they would show aggression towards you guys seems really bizarre to me. But that said, I also have to admit all the hullabaloo has tainted the whole topic for me so I tend to distance myself from practitioners on either side that get all hyper-partisan and nasty about it. Rather just steer clear of all of it.

It was a bit of a wake up call for me to see this. I realised that perhaps I was also becoming a bit too zealous in the way I spoke about things and that perhaps it was starting to be at the expense of other practitioners. Perhaps I was being a little insulting in some of the things I was saying, even if I didn't mean it to be so. Perhaps, no matter how well meaning we are and how passionate we are about our practices, the way we come across to others may be too much and it might frighten them away from the whole issue or worse, from the whole Buddhist scene - I'm sure that's the last thing we want.

It seems quite timely to have seen this as i've also been seeing the comments from poster Karla. While I don't entirely agree with all that she has to say (pardon me, Karla, but you do come across as being very strong and not always in a pleasant way!), I am starting to understand that point she makes about how we might risk painting a picture of Dorje Shugden practitioners that is not altogether who we really are.

Remember that when we're online, there is so much anonymity and world doesn't see the whole of us. They don't see the other good things that we might be doing, our other good qualities, our efforts and attempts to practice, our relationships with our sangha and our teachers, our other practices of lamrim, lojong or yidam practices. They see only what we say and what we write about. So what impression do we give as we write on the forum or on any other internet platforms? We have to be very careful not to come across as just another version of the anti-Shugden camp, where we put the other side down, as well-intentioned as we might be.

I've found it helpful to reread the forum's guidelines because I think this website makes it very clear that they are NOT here to disparage any practitioner or Lama. They make their intentions very clear and their respect for the Dalai Lama is very clearly maintained. I respect that very much and I think it's important that if we want to engage on this forum and the website that we also try to adopt that thinking as much as we can. If we are defending our Dharmapala, we must do it in a way that he too would approve, that is peaceful and inspiring, not denigrating and political.

I apologise if there is anything i may have said in other posts that are offensive or insulting. That recent comment I saw on Facebook has been a good wake up call and a reminder, and I hope it will help you press the reset button as much as it has for me. Have a lovely, peaceful Sunday.

PS: Forum guidelines can be read here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=880.0
it's always on the home page of the forum under "General Information"

[beggar]

honeydakini
in case you're wondering why I edited your post, there was a slight error in your title, so I just fixed that. Good points that you've made here. Hope it gets the floor talking!

[Dulzie Bear]

I am new to this forum and therefore do not have the benefit of time-spent to be a good judge but when it comes to sensitive issues like a person's religion, it is easy to get carried away. So I can understand why some of the posts are a bit heavy and personal especially against the Tibet government. However it is still quite tame compared to reactions I have seen when religion is being insulted. I remember Salman Rushdie writing The Satanic Verses which the Muslim community took offense to and the religious head called for a jihad to deliver the author's head. That was extreme but it just shows how easily religious arguments can flare up.

In reading the older posts I still cannot get why there was even a ban on Gyalchen Shugden. Are there not far more nefarious religious practices that should be questioned instead of something the Tibet people have worshipped for hundreds of years? If I am not mistaken, spirit worship is very common and shamanism have also been a traditional practice in Tibet. I am not sure if they can be regarded as a religion but for sure it is not something everyone will agree with. I have even heard of Satan worshipping. But all these are just things some people believe in and no one is ever harmed by another person's religious practice unless it involves something like child sacrifices which is not the case here.

Having said all that, quarrels within the same religious community is never good for the religion and I am wondering why the Shugden people have not sent representatives to negotiate with the Tibet government? And where does the Dalai Lama stand on this issue now?

[WisdomBeing]

i recently shared the article on HH Trijang Rinpoche giving a teaching tour in Europe on Vajrayana (Tibetan) Buddhist facebook and immediately i got jumped on for promoting Shugden and being from NKT. And the biggest critic is an ex-NKT person. It was really sad to see the vicious rhetoric hurled at me and it made me think- what impression are we giving others as BUDDHISTS? Forget pro-Shugden or anti-Shugden, Vajrayana or Mahayana, Gelug/Nyingma/Sakya or Karma Kagyu...  if we are ALL Buddhists, shouldn't we behave with loving kindness? Mutual respect? Or are these unrealistic idealistic views? As Buddhists, can we not talk kindly to each other, can we not put people down, can we not scream at each other and hurl poison tipped verbal barbs? Can we stop being so angry? What are you angry about? That i think differently from you?

Ironically i think the anti-Shugden crowd would not criticise Christians in the same way as they criticize us. They would have to respect someone of a different religion, so why can't we all do that - respect each other.

The way people bicker and attack regarding the Dorje Shugden issue online really puts off people who does not want to be involved in the politics. They think Buddhism should be all sweetness and light, rightly or wrongly, they just don't want to know and prefer to steer clear of what they see as politics. It's a conundrum i don't know how to solve, personally. Any ideas?

[Losang_Tenpa]

I chanced upon this comment on Kate's wall, from someone I'd never met on Facebook and thought it'd be good to share it with everyone here:

I'm not a Dorje Shugden practitioner and admittedly have not done a ton of reading on the matter from both sides to feel like I have much of a grasp on the whole controversy, but what little I have read gives me the sense that this dispute essentially arises from ancient Tibetan *political* conflicts and as such always seems an odd thing for American sangha who are not DS practitioners to put much energy towards. What's all this got to do with anything in contemporary America? So, that they would show aggression towards you guys seems really bizarre to me. But that said, I also have to admit all the hullabaloo has tainted the whole topic for me so I tend to distance myself from practitioners on either side that get all hyper-partisan and nasty about it. Rather just steer clear of all of it.

It was a bit of a wake up call for me to see this. I realised that perhaps I was also becoming a bit too zealous in the way I spoke about things and that perhaps it was starting to be at the expense of other practitioners. Perhaps I was being a little insulting in some of the things I was saying, even if I didn't mean it to be so. Perhaps, no matter how well meaning we are and how passionate we are about our practices, the way we come across to others may be too much and it might frighten them away from the whole issue or worse, from the whole Buddhist scene - I'm sure that's the last thing we want.

It seems quite timely to have seen this as i've also been seeing the comments from poster Karla. While I don't entirely agree with all that she has to say (pardon me, Karla, but you do come across as being very strong and not always in a pleasant way!), I am starting to understand that point she makes about how we might risk painting a picture of Dorje Shugden practitioners that is not altogether who we really are.

Remember that when we're online, there is so much anonymity and world doesn't see the whole of us. They don't see the other good things that we might be doing, our other good qualities, our efforts and attempts to practice, our relationships with our sangha and our teachers, our other practices of lamrim, lojong or yidam practices. They see only what we say and what we write about. So what impression do we give as we write on the forum or on any other internet platforms? We have to be very careful not to come across as just another version of the anti-Shugden camp, where we put the other side down, as well-intentioned as we might be.

I've found it helpful to reread the forum's guidelines because I think this website makes it very clear that they are NOT here to disparage any practitioner or Lama. They make their intentions very clear and their respect for the Dalai Lama is very clearly maintained. I respect that very much and I think it's important that if we want to engage on this forum and the website that we also try to adopt that thinking as much as we can. If we are defending our Dharmapala, we must do it in a way that he too would approve, that is peaceful and inspiring, not denigrating and political.

I apologise if there is anything i may have said in other posts that are offensive or insulting. That recent comment I saw on Facebook has been a good wake up call and a reminder, and I hope it will help you press the reset button as much as it has for me. Have a lovely, peaceful Sunday.

PS: Forum guidelines can be read here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=880.0
it's always on the home page of the forum under "General Information"

Nice! A good reminder.

[beggar]

Ironically i think the anti-Shugden crowd would not criticise Christians in the same way as they criticize us. They would have to respect someone of a different religion, so why can't we all do that - respect each other.

This has been one of the big questions throughout the endurance of this ban: that the Dalai Lama and his many supporters would see, meet and even pray with anyone, of any other religion, even faiths that completely contradict the teachings of Buddhism (such as the cult of Aum in Japan under Shoko Asahara) but they would not even enter into dialogue with Dorje Shugden practitioners. Okay, so let's not even talk about something as serious as dialogue. A Dalai Lama supporter cannot even permit a Shugden practitioner into their shop!

The most ironic thing about this (and I'm not even sure if the anti-Shugden pas are aware of this), is that they go around proclaiming that they are doing to preserve the religious purity of the lineage, to keep a clean samaya with the Dalai Lama etc. But they treat their own people, fellow Buddhists, in such atrocious ways. Is this behaviour like This keeping with the religious purity of the lineage? is discrimination, aggression and ostracism a way to keep a clean samaya with our teachers? how is it hurting or damaging Buddhism (and our own practices!) in the long run?

So while these Buddhists run around on inter-faith, inter-cultural, inter-religious exchanges, dialogues, prayer sessions, debates and conferences, they forget that charity starts at home. How about trying to create some inter-faith harmony just among ourselves first?

[beggar]

Having said all that, quarrels within the same religious community is never good for the religion and I am wondering why the Shugden people have not sent representatives to negotiate with the Tibet government? And where does the Dalai Lama stand on this issue now?

Hey Dulzie Bear,
Great to see you on the forum. A big welcome to you and I hope you'll be here to stay for long. Always good to hear new voices.

As to why Shugden people have not sent representatives to negotiate... well they have certainly tried but all requests for dialogue and negotiations have been largely ignored. There are a lot of stories about this. Even Tibetan parliament representatives who are approached directly have been known to respond very rudely and turn away any requests for further discussion. Check out this video on the subject:

The Dalai Lama's Rep Lies about Dorje Shugden Ban	Small | Large

This has also been one of the most puzzling things about the ban - that no debate, dialogue or questioning has been permitted at all, which is completely against the tenets of Buddhism, which always encourages debate and questioning! So Shugden practitioners have had to find other methods to have their voice heard, and without being disruptive or disrespectful to the Dalai Lama. This is how monasteries like Shar Gaden and Serpom have arisen, and how Dorje Shugden lamas are now travelling more frequently and to many countries across the continents to bring the lineage and practice to others that way instead.

Secondly, where the Dalai Lama now stands on the issue - well, this we can't really tell. There are many speculations as to what his stance is in the first place, some of them more unpleasant than others. The overall view of this website and many of the supporters of dorjeshugden.com can be read here:  http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0
It's a little long but a very clear and detailed explanation of how we can look at the ban without creating any wrong view about either the Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden.

In short, it lends the view that the ban has been a deliberate way for the Dalai Lama to actually promote the practice of Dorje Shugden - in creating so much controversy around this practice and aggressively telling people NOT to do it, many, many more people have now heard of Dorje Shugden; many more are also doing the practice now. It is a kind of reverse psychology that has allowed the practice to grow stronger than it would have if the Dalai Lama had merely allowed it continue the way it was. There's some good reading on how the ban is actually making us stronger: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-ban-has-made-us-stronger/

Now, while we cannot know for sure what his intentions are, we have however see how the Dalai Lama's tone has changed towards this issue of Dorje Shugden. For all outward appearances, he still seems to be "against" the practice, but he is also softening his tone and approach towards those who continue to practice. A full explanation here, including videos to track how he has changed the way he talks about Shugden:
True Hamony or a Change in Tone? http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/

Hope this helps your queries. Keep asking. Like I said, always good to have new thoughts!

[JD]

I rejoice that this site has been highly informative on the subject and controversy that arise around this splendid Dharmapala defender king. Thank you tons!!

We never hear the holy beings bickering. The lineage lamas are an example of the virtues we need to cultivate.  Please may all practitioners always communicate respectfully with equanimity to holders of any views as our words and actions will have an impact on our shared future/karma/lives. Please may everyone's words be blessed with humility, friendly eloquence, persuasion and filled with pure truth/wisdom - this way it is possible to win trust and respect and become better students/followers/disciples of our gurus.

Peaceful practice, peaceful words, peaceful acceptance - not easy but what happens if we don't try? Out of respect for the holy beings and precious teachers, if when peaceful words are not easy then it is better to keep silent and focus on peace? If you have a fire, is it going to burn itself out if you keep adding oil?

We are surrounded by suffering everywhere in all areas of life, it is so hard to keep the Bodhisattva vow, let's not pursue a fight/battle at a mundane level - it's better to support the gurus, compassionate causes and make our own practice swiftly work wonders in reality!

So I hope that this little comment helps in the discussion, thank you honeydakini for raising this topic/making it possible! <3

[Dulzie Bear]

Thank you Beggar. I had a look at the video and was quite shocked that despite Shugden worshippers reaching out to the Dalai Lama and his parliament, no one even bothered to respond. I cannot imagine that such a thing can happen in the modern world, where a person's religion is suddenly banned and followers of the religion made to swear that they have given up the practice otherwise they cannot even but provisions from grocery stores. I doubt if a leader of any other modern community can get away with this kind of stunt.

I tried looking up the internet for analysis of the ban and could not find a a consistent and logical one. It is said that the practice is harmful to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan's freedom. But for the life of me, my brain cannot register the logic in that. Even if that is true, it seems a bit silly to follow Buddhism if all the holy and powerful beings in the Buddhist heavenly realms cannot stand up to a spirit. I would have thought that all things in samsara can be subdued by the power of the Dharma and there are so many Buddhas and deities whose practice are specifically to combat malicious spirits and spells? No, it doesn't make sense to me, especially when it comes from a government body. Plus, apparently the parliament consulted the state oracle who took trance of ANOTHER SPIRIT for advice on what should be done with the Shugden practice!

Just looking at the conflict in the Middle East that arose out of a religious quarrel a long time ago. Until now and after so many wars, there is still no solution but even then there has been dialogue and attempts at peaceful compromise. But in this case, I guess the Tibet government is not going against another government but ordinary people who they can bully into submission.

So what is the official stance on Gyalchen Shugden now?

[honeydakini]

Peaceful practice, peaceful words, peaceful acceptance - not easy but what happens if we don't try? Out of respect for the holy beings and precious teachers, if when peaceful words are not easy then it is better to keep silent and focus on peace? If you have a fire, is it going to burn itself out if you keep adding oil?

Hi JD, looks like you're a newbie here. Hope you're finding your way around the forum alright.

I'm not sure I agree entirely with keeping silent. I think it's important to keep finding other ways to make ourselves heard that don't have to be violent or aggressive or hurt anyone. I think what this website does is good. They are constantly "speaking" but their words are not harmful, they are education and informative. I understand what you mean about keeping things peaceful, but sometimes keeping quiet and being passive doesn't allow for peace in the long run - it means that we are allowing others to get away with their NON-peaceful actions and create harm for others.

So what we can do is to bring knowledge about this protector to others without putting anyone down or hurting anyone's practice. We don't want the fire to die completely because it would mean that the cause for freedom of practice isn't being fought anymore. I think it's good to keep the embers alive, but without it spitting flames at others if you know what I mean! I think it's important to keep the fight going, but in a compassionate and humble way, and always with respect to other lamas and their students.

[dsiluvu]

Peaceful practice, peaceful words, peaceful acceptance - not easy but what happens if we don't try? Out of respect for the holy beings and precious teachers, if when peaceful words are not easy then it is better to keep silent and focus on peace? If you have a fire, is it going to burn itself out if you keep adding oil?

Hi JD, looks like you're a newbie here. Hope you're finding your way around the forum alright.

I'm not sure I agree entirely with keeping silent. I think it's important to keep finding other ways to make ourselves heard that don't have to be violent or aggressive or hurt anyone. I think what this website does is good. They are constantly "speaking" but their words are not harmful, they are education and informative. I understand what you mean about keeping things peaceful, but sometimes keeping quiet and being passive doesn't allow for peace in the long run - it means that we are allowing others to get away with their NON-peaceful actions and create harm for others.

So what we can do is to bring knowledge about this protector to others without putting anyone down or hurting anyone's practice. We don't want the fire to die completely because it would mean that the cause for freedom of practice isn't being fought anymore. I think it's good to keep the embers alive, but without it spitting flames at others if you know what I mean! I think it's important to keep the fight going, but in a compassionate and humble way, and always with respect to other lamas and their students.

I agree honeydakini that we should not just keep silence and stand aside and watch our Dharma brothers and sisters face their own pain and suffering. How could we ignore their tremendous difficulty. How do we consider this Dharmic? But yes I do agree that perhaps how we approach our plight in creating awareness about the ban and the suffering it causes must be presented in a way where by it draws people's attention to find out more instead of sounding aggressive and push people further away from the cause and from the Dharma.

On the other side of the coin, I have also come across some positive comments on FB which is from a curios person in regards to the Dorje Shugden ban we are all facing. This to me is a good sign, because it shows that though people may not completely understand what is going on, but they are starting to notice and wish to learn or find out more...

Thanks for befriending me. I honestly don't understand the debate over Dorge Shugden. It breaks my hear to hear people disrespect his Holiness the Dalai Lama, but from what I have seen the Shugden followers like yourself are pretty awesome.

I gave up my Buddhist vows about ten years ago because they seemed so medieval and neurotic. I often have obstacles in business, friendships and art (I'm a writer) that I need help over-overcoming and would be happy to hear about your experiences with Dorge Shugden.

PS: Enjoy New York. I'll be there in five weeks to pitch a novel.

[/size]

This gave me a chance and an opportunity to share with him my experience and to point him in to this website because I believe here in ds.com they try their best to present the facts with logic in the most unbiased manner that allows us to think and decide for ourselves.  Also let us not forget about the whole motivation of why we are here and our stance which is good to contemplate on time and time on the mission http://www.dorjeshugden.com/mission-statement/

[Ensapa]

i recently shared the article on HH Trijang Rinpoche giving a teaching tour in Europe on Vajrayana (Tibetan) Buddhist facebook and immediately i got jumped on for promoting Shugden and being from NKT. And the biggest critic is an ex-NKT person. It was really sad to see the vicious rhetoric hurled at me and it made me think- what impression are we giving others as BUDDHISTS? Forget pro-Shugden or anti-Shugden, Vajrayana or Mahayana, Gelug/Nyingma/Sakya or Karma Kagyu...  if we are ALL Buddhists, shouldn't we behave with loving kindness? Mutual respect? Or are these unrealistic idealistic views? As Buddhists, can we not talk kindly to each other, can we not put people down, can we not scream at each other and hurl poison tipped verbal barbs? Can we stop being so angry? What are you angry about? That i think differently from you?

Ironically i think the anti-Shugden crowd would not criticise Christians in the same way as they criticize us. They would have to respect someone of a different religion, so why can't we all do that - respect each other.

The way people bicker and attack regarding the Dorje Shugden issue online really puts off people who does not want to be involved in the politics. They think Buddhism should be all sweetness and light, rightly or wrongly, they just don't want to know and prefer to steer clear of what they see as politics. It's a conundrum i don't know how to solve, personally. Any ideas?

Well, for one, the internet can be filled with all kinds of odd people. Also, people tend to be more bold on the internet because they have a cover, a front where they dont have to be physically accountable for their speech on the internet. Thus, some people might sound all puffed up and might online but in real life they could just be a socially awkward person who cant assert himself. This is called the white knight syndrome. The other thing is, some ex-NKT members are known to be suffering from some mental thing that causes them to have a warped vision of the world they tend to blame all their misfortunes on Dorje Shugden when its their own karma. We should have compassion for them because they do need it as they have no control of their thoughts.

[dslucky]

Thank you Honey Dakini for bringing up this interesting point. Your writing made me contemplate deeply how I have been approaching this Dorje Shugden issue.

From a personal point of view, I think I got it all wrong from the start. Because of the ban, every time I speak about Dorje Shugden I will somehow relate the practice to the ban. So indirectly, I am not promoting the practice but the ban. How incredibly silly I am..

The fact is that the ban is there. We can choose to harp on it and get no where or practice well to show the world we Dorje Shugden practitioners can gain attainments through this holy practice. So do we focus on the ban or the practice? I would choose to PRACTICE for sure because by focusing on the ban there is a huge possibility we will be filled with anger which in turns creates negative karma for us. But if we focus on the practice sincerely, we will eventually gain attainments and this will create the cause for the ban to be lifted!

This does not mean we should ignore the ban totally though. I guess the key here is to balance it out. So yes...I shall focus on the practice from now on!

[Ensapa]

Thank you Honey Dakini for bringing up this interesting point. Your writing made me contemplate deeply how I have been approaching this Dorje Shugden issue.

From a personal point of view, I think I got it all wrong from the start. Because of the ban, every time I speak about Dorje Shugden I will somehow relate the practice to the ban. So indirectly, I am not promoting the practice but the ban. How incredibly silly I am..

The fact is that the ban is there. We can choose to harp on it and get no where or practice well to show the world we Dorje Shugden practitioners can gain attainments through this holy practice. So do we focus on the ban or the practice? I would choose to PRACTICE for sure because by focusing on the ban there is a huge possibility we will be filled with anger which in turns creates negative karma for us. But if we focus on the practice sincerely, we will eventually gain attainments and this will create the cause for the ban to be lifted!

This does not mean we should ignore the ban totally though. I guess the key here is to balance it out. So yes...I shall focus on the practice from now on!

On the contrary, we should portray Dorje Shugden in a positive light and raise the  ban up as something that we should tolerate to other people and most importantly not criticize CTA or the Dalai Lama so that we do not disturb their minds. As Buddhists, we should not disturb other peoples' minds and we should always be a good example to others and be good representatives of Dorje Shugden practitioners and from that, His practice will spread and we will give people a positive imprint of Dorje Shugden. Not everyone will follow the Dalai Lama without questioning and not everybody will follow the crowd. They will make their own choices after observations.