Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche - best of friends

[Namdrol]

The 16th Karmapa and the previous Trijang Rinpoche

[Dulzie Bear]

Such a brilliant picture of two of the greatest masters of Tibetan Buddhism. Although Trijang Rinpoche was a Gelugpa monk and the 16th Karmapa, a Karma Kagyu, there were no conflict or rivalries between them. In fact they enjoyed a good relationship based on respect and trust. The 16th Karmapa even warned that one day Gyalchen Shugden will so revered and powerful that the monasteries will have to rely on the Protector

The 16th Karmapa and Dorje Shugden	Small | Large

In a few short years since that picture was taken the truth was twisted into something unrecognizable . Gyalchen Shugden has never been sectarian, political or evil or the 16th Karmapa would have reacted very differently. Isn't that only logic?

[beggar]

Well of course they would be the best of friends - enlightened beings of this supreme and ultimate level of attainment would have nothing to squabble about. We might imagine, that ultimately, in the Dharmakaya, the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are also taking photographs together.

Remember also the famous story that the 16th Karmapa had manifested great disapproval at the fact that a Nyingma monastery had an image that depicted their protector stepping upon Dorje Shugden. And later, also acknowledged the rising prominence of Dorje Shugden in the world whereupon eventually, one day, said the Karmapa, "you will definitely need to rely on this deity."

Here's an old post by poster Vajraprotector:http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.msg25133#msg25133

While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on.

Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event. - from Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's sungbum

[Big Uncle]

1. Karmapa Migyo Dorje
2. Sur Choying Rangdrol
3. Gaden Tripa Jangchup Chopel
4. Gaden Tripa Losang Tsultrim

The relationship between the Karmapa were known to have begun very early on and in one of the previous lives of the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche, they switched places. Hence, in the previous lifetime of Trijang Rinpoche as depicted in the thangka above, you will see Trijang Rinpoche as Karmapa Migyo Dorje. This has been described to be some sort of divine play from these spiritually evolved beings as they have no identity and do not have to belong to any school of Buddhism as long as the lineage and teachings benefit others.

PS: The full biographical thangkas of Trijang Rinpoche's previous lives are available here on this forum and here's the link directly to that thread:- http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=635.msg5238#msg5238

[honeydakini]

Hi Big Uncle, that's a wonderful thangka and a lovely story. I'd not heard that before but it's fascinating to think of how the divine beings swap roles across lifetimes. Their ability to help us is endless of course, so actually their outward manifestations are only for us. Karmapa would help us as much as the Karmapa as he would if he was Trijang Rinpoche LOL!

I think this is a wonderful show of non sectarianism and a reminder to all the silly earth people that the different labels we place on sects are only there because we have put them there. at an ultimate level, the beings we pray to and aspire to be have no labels and their compassion isn't boxed into categories. We put the labels, then we also put up the walls around us and we start the finger pointing when we don't like the other people on the other side of the wall. How ridiculous we look. Ultimately, we're all living in the same space and trying to achieve the same things.

So for all the people who say that Dorje Shugden practitioners are sectarian, this example of the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche blows things out of the water. They broke down all the walls! LOL

[WisdomBeing]

[img] This has been described to be some sort of divine play from these spiritually evolved beings as they have no identity and do not have to belong to any school of Buddhism as long as the lineage and teachings benefit others.

Dear Big Uncle,

Ok, i understand what you say on a certain level (i think) but i would like to ask ... are all Buddhas the same energy, as in they are all ONE and not separate beings, but they manifest as separate beings in order to deal with our simple, deluded minds which cling to form, duality and labels etc.

When we say that the lineage of a master is the continuation of his mindstream from lifetime to lifetime, does that mean that the mindstream of Trijang Rinpoche manifested as the 8th Karmapa Migyo Dorje (so they 'switched')? So the Karmapa's mindstream hopped over and then back again?

Does the karmapa's lineage recognise this - that Migyo Dorje was Trijang Rinpoche's midstream?

I'd appreciate any clarification.. thanks!

[Big Uncle]

Dear Big Uncle,

Ok, i understand what you say on a certain level (i think) but i would like to ask ... are all Buddhas the same energy, as in they are all ONE and not separate beings, but they manifest as separate beings in order to deal with our simple, deluded minds which cling to form, duality and labels etc.

When we say that the lineage of a master is the continuation of his mindstream from lifetime to lifetime, does that mean that the mindstream of Trijang Rinpoche manifested as the 8th Karmapa Migyo Dorje (so they 'switched')? So the Karmapa's mindstream hopped over and then back again?

Does the karmapa's lineage recognise this - that Migyo Dorje was Trijang Rinpoche's midstream?

I'd appreciate any clarification.. thanks!

Dear Wisdom Being,
I am not a Buddha so I cannot really explain but this is what I know of the Buddhas, they are all separate beings but possessed the same qualities of perfection. They cannot be put into labels and yet, you still cannot say they became one being.Those are conventions we hold in our limited mind. They can emanate into countless beings because of their compassion. 

With regards to the Karmapa, yes, it is traditionally believed that Trijang Rinpoche was recognized as the Karmapa Migyo Dorje and the real Karmapa, I have no idea where he went. Maybe, he was taking a holiday up there in paradise for one lifetime. Just kidding, I dunno. I don't think this is a view shared by the Kagyus because I went to their official site - http://www.kagyuoffice.org/ site and there's no mention of this switcheroo. What i presented is what is traditionally believed. Hope that helps...

[Ensapa]

on this part, it is pretty well known that the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche were extremely close, but there is another interesting account:

From Speech by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama to the Second Gelug Conference (Dharamsala, 6 December 2000)

Now I would like to say something about Trijang Rinpoche. He and Karmapa Rinpoche were very close. He himself related one incident that occurred after we had moved here. He said that on the previous day he had received a bit of a shock. Karmapa Rinpoche had turned up out of the blue just as he was doing Dolgyal propitiation.  When he heard that Karmapa Rinpoche had arrived, he said that he had to hurriedly clear away all of the offerings in order to conceal them. The reason was that Karmapa Rinpoche was not at all keen on Dolgyal. Think about this. What sort of a tutelary protector for the Gelug is it that one has to conceal when a Kagyu Lama arrives? The Gelug tradition has the Six-Armed Mahakala as a tutelary deity. It also has Damchen Chogyel (Kalarupa). If it had been Mahakala there in full view, Karmapa Rinpoche would have been quite happy. He would probably have offered a symbolic libation to him. I do not know whether the same is true for Damchen Chogyel (Kalarupa).

Note that this article has been removed from the Dalai Lama's main website and what the Dalai Lama had said above cannot be verified by anyone at all and most anti Shugden propaganda seems to have this pattern.

[kris]

I have heard my Lama said that Buddhas has no sect, and they appear to be sectarian because we perceive it. Just like Tara, some sects choose to practice Her more intensely than others, but that should not make Tara sectarian.

There are many ways to enlightenment, and Dorje Shugden is definitely one of the many ways to achieve enlightenment, and He is definitely not sectarian, just like the case of Tara. It is only us who put labels on Them.

Just like the case that I rejoice when seeing practitioners of different religions having peaceful gatherings, I too rejoice when seeing great Lamas of different sects together. After all, "sects" are just labels in our lay person's mind...

[Big Uncle]

on this part, it is pretty well known that the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche were extremely close, but there is another interesting account:

From Speech by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama to the Second Gelug Conference (Dharamsala, 6 December 2000)

Now I would like to say something about Trijang Rinpoche. He and Karmapa Rinpoche were very close. He himself related one incident that occurred after we had moved here. He said that on the previous day he had received a bit of a shock. Karmapa Rinpoche had turned up out of the blue just as he was doing Dolgyal propitiation.  When he heard that Karmapa Rinpoche had arrived, he said that he had to hurriedly clear away all of the offerings in order to conceal them. The reason was that Karmapa Rinpoche was not at all keen on Dolgyal. Think about this. What sort of a tutelary protector for the Gelug is it that one has to conceal when a Kagyu Lama arrives? The Gelug tradition has the Six-Armed Mahakala as a tutelary deity. It also has Damchen Chogyel (Kalarupa). If it had been Mahakala there in full view, Karmapa Rinpoche would have been quite happy. He would probably have offered a symbolic libation to him. I do not know whether the same is true for Damchen Chogyel (Kalarupa).

Note that this article has been removed from the Dalai Lama's main website and what the Dalai Lama had said above cannot be verified by anyone at all and most anti Shugden propaganda seems to have this pattern.

Dear Ensapa,

You brought up a very interesting point and perhaps, this occurred toward the end of Trijang Rinpoche's life and when the Dalai Lama already had expressed his doubts on Dorje Shugden and the start of the ban as well. I am not sure if this follows the chronological order and I feel that perhaps, it may be an incident that was taken totally out of context. Perhaps.

You never know with such anecdotes because it is really subject to the observer. I search Trijang Rinpoche's autobiography and this incident was not related within the autobiography. I wonder why. I am not sure but if the source is valid, perhaps, Trijang Rinpoche didn't think it was important to relate or the fact that it was taken totally out of context.

[WisdomBeing]

I don't think this is a view shared by the Kagyus because I went to their official site - http://www.kagyuoffice.org/ site and there's no mention of this switcheroo. What i presented is what is traditionally believed. Hope that helps...

It is interesting that this story is not in the Kagyu website but it is in HH Trijang Choktrul's official website http://www.tbiusa.org/trijangdorjechang/biography/incarnations. This means to me that the "switch" was official and not just a legend. Whatever the purpose of the "switch" was, if people accept this to be true, then there can be no such thing as sectarianism between schools or between Dorje Shugden and non-Dorje Shugden practitioners. Which leads me logically to be very skeptical about the story related by HH Dalai Lama at the Second Gelug Conference in 2000 regarding Trijang Rinpoche allegedly concealing his Dorje Shugden practice from the Karmapa. I cannot imagine that the Karmapa would really think that Dorje Shugden or any practice in a Tibetan monastery is bad. That would be real schism.

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa,

You brought up a very interesting point and perhaps, this occurred toward the end of Trijang Rinpoche's life and when the Dalai Lama already had expressed his doubts on Dorje Shugden and the start of the ban as well. I am not sure if this follows the chronological order and I feel that perhaps, it may be an incident that was taken totally out of context. Perhaps.

You never know with such anecdotes because it is really subject to the observer. I search Trijang Rinpoche's autobiography and this incident was not related within the autobiography. I wonder why. I am not sure but if the source is valid, perhaps, Trijang Rinpoche didn't think it was important to relate or the fact that it was taken totally out of context.

Actually, if you read the statement above, it was more like the Dalai Lama is trying to share something Oprah style rather than giving concrete evidence (Oh I met Trijang Rinpoche during this day at this date as he was teaching this teaching to me and he brought this up) it's the lack of details that support these claims that make me feel weird when i read about them. And this is a pattern throughout whatever anti Dorje Shugden stories or materials that HHDL or his team of writers come out with because most of them are 1) taken out of context 2) based on rumours and 3) Lack details and credibility.

[Manjushri]

Love this post.

Sectarianism wasn't something that Buddha taught. No where in the Kagyur is there anything on sectarianism. Therefore it could only arise due to the ignorance of man.

Buddhism has one root - Buddha. Whatever school you learn from and practise with, it leads you to the same ultimate goal. The path may differ but the achievement/goal is the same. There is no difference in the goals of each school.

It is like maths. the fundamental concepts of mathematics is the same. You can become a mathematician from doing your studies at cambridge, oxford, imperial, australia, canada. Whatever school you choose, the end result is that you will become a mathematician. Same thing. There is no division in the schools.

Sectarianism arose from schismatic mindsets.

Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche are best of friends, because their fundamental goal is the same. To benefit others and lead others out of samsara.

[whitelion]

Since many previous life time ago both HH Karmapa & HH Trijang Rinpoche have this very strong connection/relationship, which means both lama have choose to come back to this human reals based on their wish to benefit sentient beings, which also mean both lamas must have very strong compassion towards the sentient beings.

If HH Trijang Rinpoche have so much compassion toward sentient beings, will the previous and current HH Trijang Rinpoche introduce us something that will harm us ? Of course not!! Hence the Dorje Shugden practice will only benefit us in many different levels or HH Trijang Rinpoche will not choose this as the main protector practice to confer to disciples out of many others.

Also HH Trijang Rinpoche have spread Dorje Shugden practice to almost all of his disciples from all main monasteries. If Dorje Shugden practice is not authentic or will harm people in anyway or form, do you think HH The 16th Karmapa will not stop him of doing that ?? If even HH Karmapa not worried about Dorje Shugden lineage, do you think this practice will have a problem ?

If Dorje Shugden practice have harm any sentient being in any way, the nagetive karma will go back to the person who conferred the lineage or practice, so why is HH Trijang Rinpoche still reincarnated back to our life ?

That's too many question on this "Dorje Shugden is a demon" issue, it's because all these stories are made out by men without any authentic evidence, hence Dorje Shugden is growing bigger and bigger...

[Ensapa]

I actually wonder now: if the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche were very close for so many lifetimes, how come in this lifetime both Karmapas are not showing that they are close to Trijang Rinpoche? (I.e. visiting him, making statements to support him) and both Karmapas are quiet about Trijang Rinpoche. I find this aspect quite interesting on why they do not manifest this relationship. Is it due to the Dorje Shugden ban as neither Karmapa is bold enough to defy His Holiness the Dalai Lama? Other than that, I cannot think of any reasons as to why they would not want to resume a friendship with Trijang Rinpoche.