Violence in the name of moral principal is very sad

[beggar]

One of my Dharma brothers just sent me this old article - seems he is doing some research on the instances of violence in modern religions and has remembered me railing about the violence against Shugdenpas. Violence seems to be the name of the game these days.

Have a read (and stop for a moment to appreciate the irony that it comes from the Tibetan Phayul site!)

My questions for the Dalai Lama?
1. Is it therefore not also sad that violence is being carried out in the name of that "moral principal" of suppressing DS practice? Why did your ban on the practice have to result in such horrible violence against Shugdenpas?

2. You say this, Your Holiness: "We have to make an effort to talk to each other." Then why have you refused any dialogue with people wanting to talk to you about the Shugden ban? Why have no discussions about this been allowed among your own people or among Tibetan Buddhists?

3. Your Holiness and the CTA, if we want to talk about violence, might I also recommend that you read this, and consider how much violence is being perpetrated within your own religion!
how can there be violence in paradise?: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/how-can-there-be-violence-in-paradise/


Violence in the name of moral principal is very sad
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=29973
Thursday, September 08, 2011 DHARAMSHALA, September 8: “If you criticize Islam due to a few mischievous Muslims, then you have to criticise all world religions,” the Dalai Lama said in a keynote address at an interfaith meet explaining that “all religions – including his own – have faithful who carry the seeds of destructive emotions within them.”

The Tibetan spiritual leader was speaking Wednesday in Montreal at a conference examining how religions can foster peace in the post-9-11 world. The event, Second Global Congress on World’s Religions after September 11 took place just days before the 10th anniversary of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.

“Violence in the name of moral principle is very sad,” the Dalai Lama said, comparing it to a “medicine that is supposed to cure you but only makes you sicker.”

Stressing on the need to promote dialogue as the only means to resolve conflict, the Dalai Lama said that the bloodshed of 20th century failed to resolve human problems.

“We will not achieve understanding through prayers to God or Buddha,” the Dalai Lama said. “We have to make an effort to talk to each other.”

Talking on the role of individuals in building a better world, the Dalai Lama said that individuals, not governments, have the power to bring more honesty into the world.

“The practice of compassion must start with one individual, then share with your own family members,” said the Dalai Lama, who was granted honorary Canadian citizenship in 2006.

The Nobel laureate shared his views on how to tackle global challenges like climate change and corruption.

“Corruption is some new kind of disease on the planet,” the Dalai Lama said.

The Dalai Lama also chided Chinese communism for having “no ethics” and warned against mining in the Himalayas. “You can change political mistakes, but for ecology it is more difficult,” he said.

The Tibetan exiled spiritual leader was quoted by AFP as saying that China should allow information to flow more freely and to create an independent judiciary.

A quick transition in China from communism to democracy “would create many problems. For now, what China needs is free information and an independent judiciary,” the Dalai Lama was quoted as saying.

The one-day conference also featured a panel discussion by prominent religious scholars and spiritual thinkers — including Oxford University Islamic scholar Tariq Ramadan and author Deepak Chopra along with experts representing Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism.

[Q]

Well, HHDL did mention to make the 21st century full of tolerance and dialogue... lets just say DS practitioners is not enjoying the 21st century just yet.

It is so strange that when in public, the stance is to have tolerance, understanding and to 'talk it out' for peace... but when it comes to DS practice, it is absolute and no dialog or negotiations...

HHDL mentioned “You can change political mistakes, but for ecology it is more difficult". Perhaps the CTA is playing around with these words to make all the mistakes and still have their a** covered by using the standard dialog that HHDL said so? lol...

[beggar]

Well, HHDL did mention to make the 21st century full of tolerance and dialogue... lets just say DS practitioners is not enjoying the 21st century just yet.

Perhaps it's a little bit too much for us to expect "tolerance and dialogue" just yet. We are happy enough to celebrate the fact that the Dalai Lama has recently said he would stop condemning Dorje Shugden in public. Of course, this doesn't mean the ban is off but it does create some hope that with the Dalai Lama speaking less forcefully about it, perhaps his followers will back off too eventually.

It does seem that everything the Dalai Lama teachers is in complete contradiction to what is being enforced within the Dorje Shugden ban - all his teachings on loving kindness, patience, compassion, tolerance, being spiritually progressive in a modern age... Can it really be that the Dalai Lama is completely blind to the fact that he is going against his own advice in the case of Dorje Shugden? I don't think it could be that simplistic. There must be something he's plotting. The contradiction is far too startling to be for real. So keeping that in mind, I would like to think that the recent change in tone towards DS is not just another show of fickleness or misjudged contradictions, but a part of a larger plan that the Dalai Lama has.

He's said his piece, kicked up a ruckus throughout the world about Dorje Shugden, thus elevating to a very public, prominent place. So now, perhaps, he's backing off and letting DS take it from there. Could this well be the plan? For making DS bigger than he could have ever been?

This is the only way I can really try to explain the contradictions in the way the Dalai Lama speaks publicly and what is happening behind the closed doors of the Tibetan (Buddhist) communities. For surely, someone like the Dalai Lama cannot be making such obvious, blundering contradictions for so many years!

[WisdomBeing]

Personally i think that violence cannot be condoned under any circumstances, although perhaps in cases of defending others from harm, but then where does the line get drawn? If i shoot someone to stop him from shooting my mother, is that justifiable? I guess under the law, it would be manslaughter instead of homicide, and karmically, the 'sentence' would be less harsh also since the motivation was to save rather than to hurt.

So can we deduce that violence with a good motivation is acceptable, in which case, the Dalai Lama condoning violence in the name of the Shugden ban is acceptable because Shugdenpas are all evil and should be gotten rid of. And all the people who are pro-Dalai Lama and anti-Shugden are merely following this line of thought? That they are 'saving' us from an evil demonic practice thus it is justifiable?

Of course i do not agree with this at all because if we look at the issues, it is obvious that Dorje Shugden is not a demon, therefore the whole basis of violence against Dorje Shugden practice becomes immediately moot. However, i do understand that many people who follow the Dalai Lama DO have this view, but unfortunately it comes from a lack of examination and looking deeper into the issues. They just trust the Dalai Lama and go all out to enforce this 'ban', often more violently than necessary.

For us here, who have examined the allegations against Dorje Shugden from all angles, objectively and carefully, and found there to be no bearing on them, we can see that the violence against Shugden practitioners is baseless. And here, i mean violence not just physically, but verbally or emotionally, which scars as much and which aside from being without just cause, is also so contrary to the Buddhist teachings. Harsh speech, divisive speech immediately break our refuge vows, do they not? What kind of Buddhists are we?

[honeydakini]

It's important to know that violence isn't just about physical violence where there are physical fights or attacks. There is psychological violence and the passive violence of denying people's rights and freedoms. That can be much more damaging because from the outside, it looks like nothing is really wrong and nobody's physical safety is being hurt; but inwardly, the damage is very strong and very painful.

There are thousands of monks who are suffering every minute of every day because they are now separated from their root teachers. They may not be beaten or see bricks flying through their windows, but I daresay that this separation could be far worse for many of them. If you would only see that video of the monks in Gaden being forced to swear out of their practice of Dorje Shugden, you would begin to see what I am talking about. That is violence also. Look how hurt and traumatised some of the old monks are. Why would you force an old monk to swear against something he has believed in and prayed to his whole life? Isn't that aggression? Violence? A form of 'beating someone into submission'?

There is violence is not always about doing something to others. It could also be in denying the most basic necessities for a peaceful life. So the monks (and laypeople) who don't give up their practice will be denied welfare, contact with their spiritual community. This leaves them out in the cold to suffer poverty, alienation and having to live with the fear of being attacked. Even if they aren't actually being attacked, the fear and everything else creates a tremendous suffering. They makes them victims of violence as much as the ones who are being attacked.

[vajratruth]

I fully agree with the Dalai Lama but at the same time I cannot help but notice that much of the actions of the Dalai Lama's government, the CTA have led to violence instead of tolerance and dialogue. Perhaps His Holiness should look at ways to have this own advice prevailed upon the CTA to make them examples of how religion and indeed a religious based government can foster peace instead of conflict.

The Dorje Shugden ban certainly did not arise out of any dialogue between the CTA and the people nor can it be exemplary of a policy of tolerance. In fact, the contrary applies! The Shugden practice was simply prohibited by government decree without any explanations by the CTA and far from being tolerant of the Tibetan people's respective religious practice, the CTA was in fact behind a spate of violence spearheaded by various government sponsored bodies, afflicted upon Shugden practitioners.

In 1993 when supporters (including monks) of both sides of the Karmapa controversy clashed in Sikkim, the Dalai Lama's office and the Tibetan government did literally nothing to restore peace. Instead they just kept mum on the conflict and allowed the Indian government and what was alleged to be Chinese-sponsored parties to manipulate the outcome of the incident.

And lately, we have seen so many violent cases of self-immolations by frustrated Tibetans desperate for the CTA to take affirmative steps to return them to their homeland, and other than trying to use those self-immolations for whatever political mileage they could throw against China, the CTA have been very quiet and have refused to take steps to make sure that such violence albeit to the person of the self, cease immediately.

Therefore I do fully agree with the Dalai Lama but the first His Holiness must acknowledge that his own government are today one of the biggest purveyor of medicine that does more harm than cure.

[Ensapa]

Well, HHDL did mention to make the 21st century full of tolerance and dialogue... lets just say DS practitioners is not enjoying the 21st century just yet.

Perhaps it's a little bit too much for us to expect "tolerance and dialogue" just yet. We are happy enough to celebrate the fact that the Dalai Lama has recently said he would stop condemning Dorje Shugden in public. Of course, this doesn't mean the ban is off but it does create some hope that with the Dalai Lama speaking less forcefully about it, perhaps his followers will back off too eventually.

It does seem that everything the Dalai Lama teachers is in complete contradiction to what is being enforced within the Dorje Shugden ban - all his teachings on loving kindness, patience, compassion, tolerance, being spiritually progressive in a modern age... Can it really be that the Dalai Lama is completely blind to the fact that he is going against his own advice in the case of Dorje Shugden? I don't think it could be that simplistic. There must be something he's plotting. The contradiction is far too startling to be for real. So keeping that in mind, I would like to think that the recent change in tone towards DS is not just another show of fickleness or misjudged contradictions, but a part of a larger plan that the Dalai Lama has.

He's said his piece, kicked up a ruckus throughout the world about Dorje Shugden, thus elevating to a very public, prominent place. So now, perhaps, he's backing off and letting DS take it from there. Could this well be the plan? For making DS bigger than he could have ever been?

This is the only way I can really try to explain the contradictions in the way the Dalai Lama speaks publicly and what is happening behind the closed doors of the Tibetan (Buddhist) communities. For surely, someone like the Dalai Lama cannot be making such obvious, blundering contradictions for so many years!

I'd really see that the recent change of tone that the Dalai Lama has towards Dorje Shugden of him preparing to unleash Dorje Shugden as the world's Dharma protector. I mean, when you press down a spring, it will come back at you at almost double the force. Perhaps all the oppression that has happened within the past few decades is the Dalai Lama pushing down the spring so that the spring can come back up and with double or triple the force and based on advice from Trijang Rinpoche and hints from the Karmapa, we have to be very patient and bear these grievances as the dawn of a new Dharma protector ushers in.

[honeydakini]

I'd really see that the recent change of tone that the Dalai Lama has towards Dorje Shugden of him preparing to unleash Dorje Shugden as the world's Dharma protector. I mean, when you press down a spring, it will come back at you at almost double the force. Perhaps all the oppression that has happened within the past few decades is the Dalai Lama pushing down the spring so that the spring can come back up and with double or triple the force and based on advice from Trijang Rinpoche and hints from the Karmapa, we have to be very patient and bear these grievances as the dawn of a new Dharma protector ushers in.

Ensapa, what do you mean when you talk about hints from the Karmapa? Do you mean the current 17th Karmapa and what hints are those?

I do appreciate your analogy about the spring - like a jack in the box! But while I do agree that Trijang Rinpoche and the Karmapa could very well turn the tide for Shugden practitioners, I'm not quite sure how they would get to a position that is a powerful and strong as the Dalai Lama. There have been hints that the Karmapa may succeed the Dalai Lama - and this could be very good because he may very well lift the ban (seeing as it's a practice that has nothing to even do with his sect) or it could also lead to things getting worse. As he is so clearly the head of a particular sect, the risk is that no one of the other three sects are going to want to listen to him so whatever he has to say may hold no weight.

Remember that whoever becomes the next spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism, we also have to contend with the CTA who are the ones behind enforcing all these nasty bans and the ones who are actually making the situation of day-to-day living very difficult for people.

[Ensapa]

Ensapa, what do you mean when you talk about hints from the Karmapa? Do you mean the current 17th Karmapa and what hints are those?

I do appreciate your analogy about the spring - like a jack in the box! But while I do agree that Trijang Rinpoche and the Karmapa could very well turn the tide for Shugden practitioners, I'm not quite sure how they would get to a position that is a powerful and strong as the Dalai Lama. There have been hints that the Karmapa may succeed the Dalai Lama - and this could be very good because he may very well lift the ban (seeing as it's a practice that has nothing to even do with his sect) or it could also lead to things getting worse. As he is so clearly the head of a particular sect, the risk is that no one of the other three sects are going to want to listen to him so whatever he has to say may hold no weight.

Remember that whoever becomes the next spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism, we also have to contend with the CTA who are the ones behind enforcing all these nasty bans and the ones who are actually making the situation of day-to-day living very difficult for people.

I was referring to the incident where the 16th Karmapa was very unhappy when he saw Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden:

Quote of a famous incident: in the 70s or 80s the 16th Karmapa went to an opening of a Nyingma monastery in Nepal. There, they had a statue of Dorje Drolo which had been modified and shown to be stepping on Dorje Shugden. Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.

More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden.


This incident has been written and recorded down by Dagom Rinpoche himself, see the sungbum in the attached pic

That is more than enough hints to tell me that everyone without exception will have to practice Dorje Shugden in the near future, including the Nyingmas that seem to hate him so much now.

Perhaps, when the Dalai Lama's replacement takes over, whoever it may be, CTA will be dissolved by then and a new body that governs the Tibetans emerges that will not stick their hands into any religious affairs. This is my wish as the current CTA is really bad at doing their job.

[prodorjeshugden]

I really don't understand how the Dalai Lama can be so friendly and nice with muslims while hating people from his own religion.
Dialogue is what all Shugdenners wish for, but that has not happened yet. A dialogue could be one of the first few steps that will bring peace between people who practice Dorje Shugden and those who don't.

I really hope that there will soon be peace instead of violence amongst everyone regardless of whether they practice Dorje Shugden or not...

[grandmapele]

There is never ever a good enough excuse for violence in any form. We will be no better than animals if that is all we have to try and get people to follow your instructions or advice especially if used in relation to religion. So, we should practice kindness and tolerance and acceptance as advocated by the Dalai Lama and not try to bend it to suit our purpose.

[pgdharma]

Dalai Lama is contradicting himself again. He is always promoting peace, non-violence, harmony, and love amongst all religions yet when it comes to his own religion he is creating a division amongst his own people. How can he be so acceptance of other religion and always encouraging world peace and religious harmony but incite so many disharmonies to his own people? The ban has created so much suffering for Dorje Shugden practitioners. Dalai Lama stressed on the need to promote dialogue to resolve conflict, but when it comes to Dorje Shugden practitioners there is absolutely no dialogue or discussions. Well if bloodshed of 20th century failed to resolve human problems, why not a peaceful dialogue in the 21st century to resolve the ban issues?

[James Bond]

I think violence in the name of anything is just bad, period. There should never be a reason to use violence on others. Especially the reason of religion and spiritual belief. If people want to practice and study Dorje Shugden, they should do so freely and without interruption. That is what spiritual freedom is all about. And its sad that the world still lacks this freedom.