Breaking Samaya both ways

[honeydakini]

I couldn't resist reposting this here. There's a conversation going on on one of the Facebook groups about (what else!) Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama.

So there's been this discussion about how being a Shugden practitioner means that you are automatically a Dalai Lama hater - which of course, is completely not true. We know this. All Dorje Shugden practitioners know this. I don't think I've ever met a Shugdenpa who hates the Dalai Lama - even the ones out there protesting against the Dalai Lama don't really hate him in the true sense of the word. So Kate and I were trying to explain that NO, keeping your practice of Shugden does not mean you are against the Dalai Lama, and that in fact, many people still maintain a deep and fundamental respect and love for him.

Then, there was this response:
 

Nearly every practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism has received empowerment from HH Dalai Lama, and therefore have samaya with him--therefore it is a breakage of our Vajrayana vows to do the practice of this gyalpo. Even though some are you have not received empowerment from His Holiness, but your teachers who have given this practice to you certainly have--so they are blatant samaya breakers, heading to the lowest realms, not authentic Gelugpa lineage holders. They broke their connection with lineage when they broke their samaya with Gyalwa Rinpoche.

To which I responded:
Just about every Gelugpa practitioner in the world today would also have received teachings from a lineage that included pabongka rinpoche and of course trijang Rinpoche. To have received empowerments from the Dalai Lama is to be within this lineage. So if we DO give up the practice of Dorje Shugden, then we are ALSO breaking samaya with our lamas. Either way, using your same line of argument, whether one follows Shugden or the Dalai Lama, they would have broken some samaya with one of the lineage teachers, at some point. So this effectively renders the whole Gelug lineage "broken", null and void. You might want to have a read of this article "Has the Gelug lineage lost its effectiveness" which clearly exposes how an argument like yours turns the whole Gelug lineage ineffective and 'empty' of any real blessings. http://bit.ly/PWKJNW

SO - OPENING THINGS UP TO THE FLOOR.
What do you all think?

Who are we breaking samaya with - whichever side we choose?
Or are we just doomed to break samaya either way?
Is it valid to think that perhaps our entire lineage is now broken apart and completely empty of blessings?
Given all the arguments (from both sides), you couldn't fault a girl for thinking this, could you!

[spikyeddie]

Good analysis and thoughts. If HHDL said worshipping Dorje Shugden is wrong, his root lama HH Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, then the entire lineage is already invalid since as a Buddhist we should not take refuge in worldly deities. If the lineage masters are wrong, then HHDL's refuge has been invalid already well.

It doesn't stop there, there are lamas and students from other lineages, for example, HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa who received Kalachakra initiation and other teachings from HHDL. If all those holy Gelug lamas have been wrong, and HHDL had received the bulk of his teachings from HH Trijang Rinpoche, we're throwing the entire Tibetan Buddhism into doubts, no?

[Zach]

This is why you should be careful from whom you take empowerments, I know GKG has never had any Samaya with HHDL. Even if he where to have had his relationship with his Root Guru trumps HHDL, The instruction of your Root Guru Trumps everyone !

[WisdomBeing]

This is good advice from Lama Zopa Rinpoche on giving up a guru who is a Dorje Shugden practitioner. http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=335

It is obvious that it is not good to forsake one's guru unless the guru himself has released the student from the relationship. In which case, we should never give up our guru who has given us Dorje Shugden practice. It is really sad that people are being made to choose between whose samaya to keep. In this case, even though Lama Zopa had received Dorje Shugden practice from HH Trijang Rinpoche, Lama Zopa decided to keep his samaya with HH Dalai Lama instead, outwardly at least. I do believe from the advice Lama Zopa has given on Dorje Shugden that he is privately keeping his practice though. Who knows, maybe the Dalai Lama is too!

Forsaking a Guru
(Advice given 4 April 1998)

A student wrote to Rinpoche saying that he had forsaken one of his gurus, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso*. The student said that he was not keeping his vows and was aware of the negative karma that could result from these actions. Rinpoche answered as follows.

Once you have made a Dharma connection with the virtuous friend, your guru, you cannot give up this relationship unless the guru himself or herself says, “Don’t come,” or “Don’t regard me as your guru.”

By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life. Since you haven’t given me up, I suggest that you confess to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso about what happened, and devote yourself again to this virtuous friend.

According to guru devotion practice, no matter how many gurus you have, you should look at all of them as one being, one mind, and that is Dharmakaya. That view must come from the disciple’s side. You look at them as one mind in different bodies, acting in different ways, according to the karma of sentient beings and their ordinary mistaken minds.

This is what one should practice, if one wants profit and not loss. So, change your attitude and apologize to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Confess to him and follow him again, unless he says, “No”. This will help lighten your heaviest negative karma.

In this world, people are so afraid of getting cancer or AIDS, but they don’t think about eons of suffering in the hell realms. There is such great suffering in the lower realms that cancer and AIDS or whatever suffering one can encounter in the human realm seems a great comfort and pleasure by comparison.

Causing heresy and anger and giving up the virtuous friend is much worse than killing and waging wars. This is because the object is very powerful. One’s guru is the most powerful among all powerful objects, such as buddhas.

The karma from forsaking one’s guru is worse than the karma generated by Hitler and Mao Tse Tung. Mao Tse Tung caused harm to many holy beings, but they were not his gurus. In the world, someone who kills many millions of people can still achieve enlightenment in that same lifetime. But generating heresy toward the virtuous friend and giving up one’s devotion to the virtuous friend makes it difficult to achieve enlightenment, even if one practices tantra with much hardship. It will be like taking a rebirth in hell.

Therefore, what I am saying is this: In the world, actions such as killing and waging war have very bad repercussions and are terrible, but the karma from these actions is mild compared to heresy and giving up one’s guru.

You can see in the outline in the lam-rim, even if one commits the five heinous crimes—killing one’s father, killing one’s mother, drawing blood from a Buddha, causing schism in the Sangha, and killing an Arhant—one can still achieve enlightenment, but not based on mistaken devotion to the virtuous friend. If you read Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, or Essential Nectar, particularly the lam-rim outline on guru devotion, you will understand.

I advise you to make your negative karma smaller by apologizing with regret. Practicing Buddhism is basically your choice. If you want to be free from suffering and its causes, delusion and karma, this is what you need to do: practice the Buddhist path and the Four Noble Truths. If you don’t want to be free from suffering and its causes, then there is no need to practice Buddhism. If you don’t want happiness, then don’t practice virtue.

*Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, a teacher in the UK, who continues to engage in and encourage the Dorje Shugden Protector practice.

[honeydakini]

but kate, that's precisely the dilemma isn't it? There are so many people out there who HAVE to forsake one or the other. One teacher says to practice and the other one (the Dalai Lama, or lamas who support the Dalai Lama's advice) says doesn't. Neither of them are 'releasing' the students from the relationship or the commitment (either commitment, to give up or to continue). So they are in a position where they will break samaya and create negative causes either way. I often wonder how some students of FPMT reconcile this difficult situation - especially the earlier students, who would have received their practices from Lama Yeshe who was a very strong DS practitioner. I mean, is it possible that they don't actually see Lama Zopa as their guru (they have every right not to?) so how do they continue their connection with both their root guru lama yeshe and their sangha, FPMT?

[Dulzie Bear]

but kate, that's precisely the dilemma isn't it? There are so many people out there who HAVE to forsake one or the other. One teacher says to practice and the other one (the Dalai Lama, or lamas who support the Dalai Lama's advice) says doesn't. Neither of them are 'releasing' the students from the relationship or the commitment (either commitment, to give up or to continue). So they are in a position where they will break samaya and create negative causes either way. I often wonder how some students of FPMT reconcile this difficult situation - especially the earlier students, who would have received their practices from Lama Yeshe who was a very strong DS practitioner. I mean, is it possible that they don't actually see Lama Zopa as their guru (they have every right not to?) so how do they continue their connection with both their root guru lama yeshe and their sangha, FPMT?

So in an instant we see how wrong the Dorje Shugden ban is. How can genuine Dharma ever call on a practitioners to break his samaya with one guru or another, let alone the practitioner’s root guru? Let’s think about this clearly. A genuine Dharma practice creates merits and positive karma and therefore any activity that forces a person to create such heavy negative karma is suspect.

Lama Zopa is very clear in his explanation of the heavy karma one will suffer as a consequence of breaking one’s samaya with his guru and for someone like Lama Zopa to know this and yet abandon his Shugden practice, confirms in my mind that there is indeed a bigger picture at play.

For the ban to be justified, the Lamrim has to be wrong about its teachings on the way we should treat our guru.

[Big Uncle]

Interesting line of thought here. I think that the Dalai Lama already has put himself in the line of fire when he said his Guru was wrong about Dorje Shugden. The funny thing about the Dalai Lama's ban, he doesn't go all out with it. He turns around and allows the young Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden. Why would anybody in his position and with his reasoning do that?

Even if Trijang Rinpoche were to continue the practice, he will need help from his assistants and students to set up the offerings for the Dorje Shugden puja and what if he wants to do a full one complete with the longhorn and gyaling- Tibetan clarinets? He must need to get the help of his fellow students right? That's where I am getting at, I think the secret intention is to get Trijang Rinpoche to be the main Lama to release the ban by being the one to spread it, in much like his previous life.

[Ensapa]

If you havent noticed, non-Gelugs like to play the impure lineage card. They like to claim that practicing Dorje Shugden means breaking samaya with the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden is so evil that even saying his name is bad luck. Gelugs usually wont dare to say this because they are aware of what is going on. So, why do these non Gelugs like to play the "your lineage is impure" card? Because they hate Gelugpas and they are jealous. If you ask that person which lineage do they belong to, most probably their answer would not be Gelug, or they will say they're Rime. But I like how you point the question back at them with regards to the broken samaya on both sides. If Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche are as evil as these nongelugs claim for spreading Dorje Shugden, then how did their reincarnations came back? Well, perhaps some of these Dalai Lama fanatics are unable to really think for themselves. all they want to do is hate and raise the pitchfork.

[psylotripitaka]

Whatever our decision, we need to keep deep love for the Gurus and realize they are revealing to us that the real broken samaya is our grasping at our contaminated aggregates, for it is these layers upon layers of contaminated ordinary appearances and conceptions that keep us separated from the Guru. Whether you rely on Dorje Shugden, Kalarupa, Mahakala, Palden Lhamo, Yakya Chamsing or others, do not forget to concentrate on the meaning of your life. Only nirvana is peace!

This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning full circle upon us from wrongs we have done. This heavy burden of our own contaminated aggregates is producing these appearances. Now is the time to put it to rest!

The sadness of things is destroyed in emptiness. Rest right there, over and over and over and over again and again. Cut, cut! Trample, trample! Chop, chop! Crush, crush! Incinerate, incinerate! Clean, clean! Rest, rest!

That is where we will find the Guru in our heart, laughing the heartiest of all laughs.

[Ensapa]

Whatever our decision, we need to keep deep love for the Gurus and realize they are revealing to us that the real broken samaya is our grasping at our contaminated aggregates, for it is these layers upon layers of contaminated ordinary appearances and conceptions that keep us separated from the Guru. Whether you rely on Dorje Shugden, Kalarupa, Mahakala, Palden Lhamo, Yakya Chamsing or others, do not forget to concentrate on the meaning of your life. Only nirvana is peace!

This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning full circle upon us from wrongs we have done. This heavy burden of our own contaminated aggregates is producing these appearances. Now is the time to put it to rest!

The sadness of things is destroyed in emptiness. Rest right there, over and over and over and over again and again. Cut, cut! Trample, trample! Chop, chop! Crush, crush! Incinerate, incinerate! Clean, clean! Rest, rest!

That is where we will find the Guru in our heart, laughing the heartiest of all laughs.

There is a deeper meaning of breaking samaya at play: you break your samaya when you break your vows and you do the opposite of what your teacher tells you to do or you do something that misrepresents your teacher. I doubt very much that your teacher would ask you to badmouth Dorje Shugden and "save" his practitioners, so why do that? Isnt that breaking samaya? We break our samaya not just to our Guru but to the 3 jewels and all the Buddhas when we practice Dharma with a self grasping mind. Condemning others just because they're not following what you think is right, isnt that done out of self grasping? In that case, wouldnt people who focus so much on criticizing Dorje Shugden and their practitioners have broken their samaya? You can always check and you'll find that they never progress on their practice....

[honeydakini]

Whatever our decision, we need to keep deep love for the Gurus and realize they are revealing to us that the real broken samaya is our grasping at our contaminated aggregates, for it is these layers upon layers of contaminated ordinary appearances and conceptions that keep us separated from the Guru.

That's beautifully said psylo.

I think that if we abided just within the love of our Gurus, all our other actions would fall naturally into place, so that whichever side we chose in the Dorje Shugden practice, we don't actually harm anyone - which I think is the bottom line for all our samayas. Or at least the harm is at the lowest degree of harm and minimised to the best of our abilities.

I think if we look at the examples of the lamas and true monks within the monasteries, we will see that whichever side they have chosen, they maintain their devotion to the teachers and respect for masters who aren't their teachers. Unfortunately, we only hear about the 'bad' practitioners - the ones causing trouble for each other, putting each other down and being aggressive. But in reality, there are thousands more wonderful practitioners who have made their individual decisions about the practice and remain quiet and peaceful in their decision. we don't hear of them because they have not made it an issue. They carry on their practices and samaya in the best way they can, without harming anyone nor drawing negative attention (or any attention) to their decisions and actions. I think that if you really look at what the lamas and sangha do, you can see clearly that their practice and samaya is very clearly between themselves and their teachers / the three jewels. They know this and live by this, and because of that, have caused absolutely no sadness or harm to others. At the end of the day, how clear our samaya is, is really just between us and the Buddha, no one else. 

[Ensapa]

Whatever our decision, we need to keep deep love for the Gurus and realize they are revealing to us that the real broken samaya is our grasping at our contaminated aggregates, for it is these layers upon layers of contaminated ordinary appearances and conceptions that keep us separated from the Guru.

That's beautifully said psylo.

I think that if we abided just within the love of our Gurus, all our other actions would fall naturally into place, so that whichever side we chose in the Dorje Shugden practice, we don't actually harm anyone - which I think is the bottom line for all our samayas. Or at least the harm is at the lowest degree of harm and minimised to the best of our abilities.

I think if we look at the examples of the lamas and true monks within the monasteries, we will see that whichever side they have chosen, they maintain their devotion to the teachers and respect for masters who aren't their teachers. Unfortunately, we only hear about the 'bad' practitioners - the ones causing trouble for each other, putting each other down and being aggressive. But in reality, there are thousands more wonderful practitioners who have made their individual decisions about the practice and remain quiet and peaceful in their decision. we don't hear of them because they have not made it an issue. They carry on their practices and samaya in the best way they can, without harming anyone nor drawing negative attention (or any attention) to their decisions and actions. I think that if you really look at what the lamas and sangha do, you can see clearly that their practice and samaya is very clearly between themselves and their teachers / the three jewels. They know this and live by this, and because of that, have caused absolutely no sadness or harm to others. At the end of the day, how clear our samaya is, is really just between us and the Buddha, no one else.

You're absolutely right about the presence of people who do not make the Dorje Shugden issue an issue at all. If everyone just kept quiet and did their practices and try their best to follow what their teacher said and also to keep their samaya, there is no issue with Dorje Shugden. The Dorje Shugden issue dosent affect them because it has nothing to do with pure and real Dharma practice! It is that simple. It is only people who want to make the whole thing political for whatever reasons that make it an issue. Our samaya to the 3 jewels depends on how well we keep our vows, and how well we can curtail our negative qualities.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

The worst samaya you can break is with H.H. the Dalai Lama. Without Dalai Lama there will be no Tibetan Buddhism at all.

So we should be grateful and repay HHDL's kindness with listening AT LEAST to his spiritual advice. 

HHDL should be obeyed. How can anyone choose Shugden over HHDL? Shugden is not even in the flesh and HHDL is our guru of the highest kindness. We should not be ungrateful.

During Losar (Tibetan New Year's), HHDL will give blessing and audience to so many here in Dharamsala. I rushed back for this. So kind. He is our hope and guiding light. Not Shugden.

 

[honeydakini]

That's a ridiculous thing to say, that there is no Tibetan Buddhism without the Dalai Lama. First of all, there was Tibetan Buddhism for many hundreds of years before the institution of the Dalai Lamas even existed.

And anyway, whatever the labels we want to put on it, the heart of Tibetan Buddhism is the Buddhist teachings of Shakyamuni which originated in India! So you really can't make such a general sweeping statement like that. There are still millions of Buddhists in the world today who haven't even heard of the Dalai Lama but are still very great practitioners. It's really not right to infer that unless you have samaya or a relationship with the Dalai Lama, you aren't practising.

However, if you still really want to go down that line to say that there is no Tibetan Buddhism without the Dalai Lama, then you could also argue that there would be no Dalai Lama as we know him today without his teachers - Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche, and their teachings, which can be traced back to Gurus like Pabongka Rinpoche, Dakpo Rinpoch and Taghu Pemavajra. And they are all Shugden practitioners. So who is right and who is wrong there?

Secondly, within Tibetan Buddhism there are so many practitioners who don't hold the Dalai Lama as their Guru, so there is no samaya to be broken if they don't listen to his teachings.

Anyway, I'd like to end this on a happy note: I'm very happy for you are going to be seeing the Dalai Lama this new year. Wishing you a wonderful trip and a good year ahead!

[psylotripitaka]

The worst samaya you can break is with H.H. the Dalai Lama. Without Dalai Lama there will be no Tibetan Buddhism at all.

So we should be grateful and repay HHDL's kindness with listening AT LEAST to his spiritual advice. 

HHDL should be obeyed. How can anyone choose Shugden over HHDL? Shugden is not even in the flesh and HHDL is our guru of the highest kindness. We should not be ungrateful.

During Losar (Tibetan New Year's), HHDL will give blessing and audience to so many here in Dharamsala. I rushed back for this. So kind. He is our hope and guiding light. Not Shugden.

 

Well everybody, I've tried to open some constructive dialogue with this Tenzin Gyatso character, but, as we can see from the lack of response, and especially this posting of theirs, they are simply unable to think clearly with any objective  or realistic logic about the controversy. However, they are kind to present a wonderful opportunity for people reading this site to see a glowing example of the difference between Group A and Group B in the post on The Essence of the Controversy...http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3027.0

Tenzin Gyatso, thanks so much for sharing. Btw, how can you say Dorje Shugden is not even in the flesh, I've been posting on this web forum for some time.

Great response HoneyDakini!