Karma of people who mislead others.

[Ensapa]

My friend was asking me the other day, of what is the repercussions of people who cause others to lose faith in their own Lamas and cause them to break their samaya and abandon their Lama, or misrepresent them. He said that if we break samaya, that itself is already really bad, would it be worse for people who cause others to abandon their teachers? I dont really know how to answer him on that one, does anyone else here know?

[Q]

Hmm... in my opinion (which means I do not know the answer for sure but I strongly believe it is)... if a person is able to steer another person away from their lama, then that person has already 'left' the Lama or have ill thoughts of their lama.

Fact is, how can someone with unshakable Guru Devotion cause another person to think negatively of the teacher? Not logical.

So is it worst for people who cause others to abandon their teacher. The answer would be Yes.

After all, the whole reason to have the Dharma in us is so that we can help others... and steering people away from their Lama is definitely not a method of helping them!

[apprenticehealer]

It is our Lama who teaches us, guides us, loves and cares for us so that we are able to practice the Dharma fully, that we initiate good karma and upon death - have a good rebirth. I believe no other person would or could do this for us, not even our own parents,

However , if for some reason or other, a person breaks his samaya with his Lama, then it is up to his own decision and eventually causes his own negative karma.
But to mislead others in breaking their samaya with their Lamas, in my opinion, causes even worse karma for himself.
Misleading, misrepresenting, giving falsehood, telling lies , omission of speaking the truth all are probably done with ill intention and motivation.  To hold on to such negative emotions will cause him much harm.

And the people who listens to him should also use their own intelligence and should hold on firmly and steadfastly to their faith, devotion and dedication to their Lama, and not be so easily influenced by others.

[fruven]

I would think one would have created the karma of lying when one misled another person to leave their guru. We are saying things which are untrue therefore it is a lie and in future we will be lied to and we would be lying more and more to ourselves and others. We would become distrustful of others and we would start blaming others not being honest and we think people are responsible for our unhappiness. I think it work both ways. By understanding you create what you sow you can be positive of whatever negative things people do to you so that you don't create more negative karma in future. Whatever it is happening now is created from the past long ago you are suffering it now.

Also we would have created the karma of not having good relationship with others whether it is our closed ones, friends and families. When we bring people away from something good we ourselves are supporting something negative and therefore in future we will attract the same kind and not having harmony and peace in our lives and loneliness.

In fact there are so much negative karma in misleading others because the guru contains an oceans of virtues I cannot imagine how can one create any positive karma leaving someone who is pure virtue. It is totally illogical and non-sensical. If one can has such thought and care to reflect on it, then one needs to evaluate why one is having a disciple and guru relationship in the first place. If one find that the reason is shaky and perhaps not sound one can find a better and solid reason to continue having a disciple and guru relationship. 

[sonamdhargey]

On the surface level when we lose faith in our Guru, the direct consequences is we could not receive the teachings from the Guru. We would generate such negative karma to not receive the teachings of the Guru. It is like going to school and disparage the teacher, thus we cannot learn anything from the teacher as we have nothing but negativity towards the teacher. For those who prevent others to abandon their teacher or the dharma, they are creating more negative karma for themselves by hurting others more and that will prevent him or her to be able to receive the teachings from the Guru and would create more conditions to cause more harm.

[Big Uncle]

My friend was asking me the other day, of what is the repercussions of people who cause others to lose faith in their own Lamas and cause them to break their samaya and abandon their Lama, or misrepresent them. He said that if we break samaya, that itself is already really bad, would it be worse for people who cause others to abandon their teachers? I dont really know how to answer him on that one, does anyone else here know?

Well, that's simple, what you are talking about is mentioned in the 50 Stanzas of Guru devotion. Here's what it says in the 50 Stanzas:-

Whatever fearful hells have been taught, such as Avici, the Hell of Uninterrupted Pain, it is clearly explained that those who disparage their Guru will have to remain there (a very long time).

The repercussions are very heavy especially if one holds Tantric or Bodhisattva commitments of any sort to the Lama. The same would be for the person who instigated another practitioner, a fellow Dharma brother. However, for this person, it would be one of the 5 heinous crimes of causing schism because one is creating a rift between Dharma brothers and sisters. That's very bad because you are literally making another person go away from the Dharma.

Therefore, we have to be careful how we talk and represent our Guru. If we are skillful, we can bring people to the Dharma and have faith in the Lama. If we are not skillful or we have ill motive, we turn people away from the Lama and the Dharma. The consequences are very heavy. Sometimes, its not even our speech but with our actions and the way we regard our Lama would be a turn off for some people. This is especially pronounced if one is a senior student of the Lama.

[diamond girl]

My friend was asking me the other day, of what is the repercussions of people who cause others to lose faith in their own Lamas and cause them to break their samaya and abandon their Lama, or misrepresent them. He said that if we break samaya, that itself is already really bad, would it be worse for people who cause others to abandon their teachers? I dont really know how to answer him on that one, does anyone else here know?

Well, that's simple, what you are talking about is mentioned in the 50 Stanzas of Guru devotion. Here's what it says in the 50 Stanzas:-

Whatever fearful hells have been taught, such as Avici, the Hell of Uninterrupted Pain, it is clearly explained that those who disparage their Guru will have to remain there (a very long time).

The repercussions are very heavy especially if one holds Tantric or Bodhisattva commitments of any sort to the Lama. The same would be for the person who instigated another practitioner, a fellow Dharma brother. However, for this person, it would be one of the 5 heinous crimes of causing schism because one is creating a rift between Dharma brothers and sisters. That's very bad because you are literally making another person go away from the Dharma.

Therefore, we have to be careful how we talk and represent our Guru. If we are skillful, we can bring people to the Dharma and have faith in the Lama. If we are not skillful or we have ill motive, we turn people away from the Lama and the Dharma. The consequences are very heavy. Sometimes, its not even our speech but with our actions and the way we regard our Lama would be a turn off for some people. This is especially pronounced if one is a senior student of the Lama.

Dear Big Uncle,
Thank you for your explanation and sharing. I agree with you completely and I like how your answer can be substantiated with the 50 Stanzas and the 5 heinous crimes.

To break one's own samaya is already negative karma enough and even more compounded if one takes one's negative speech and thoughts to influence another to break their samaya. I like to put it this way, how would it be if one person breaks up a family just because there was a falling out with one party in the family. Imagine the pain, hurt and disharmony caused. The fact that one can hurt another is already so bad. Imagine this is 100 times more dangerous when it comes to one's spiritual path with a Lama.

Knowing all this, people still commit these acts of causing drift and broken samayas. Is it really ignorance that one can commit these acts? Or is it simple human nature of ego and pure evil that they can have no remorse of their actions? Are people that ignorant and stupid to think that negative karma does not apply to them?

I have met people who have been disgruntled and speak poorly of their teachers and centres. Most of the time they justify their actions with how much hurt they have suffered and how disappointed they are. When I hear this I can only conclude that ego plays on them and that there is a strong element of wanting to take "revenge" thus justifying their actions. This is so sad that ego can blind people from right and wrong actions. It is this type of selfishness that results in so much suffering in life.

[dondrup]

In his advice to one of his students, Lama Zopa Rinpoche emphasised the importance of not forsaking one’s guru.  To forsake one’s guru is very heavy negative karma.  Causing heresy and anger and giving up one’s guru is much worse than killing and waging wars.  This is because the object is very powerful.  One’s guru is the most powerful among all powerful objects, such as buddhas. Someone who kills many millions of people can still accomplish enlightenment in that same lifetime.  But forsaking one’s guru makes it difficult to achieve enlightenment even if one practises tantra with much hardship.  Forsaking one’s guru is worse than the karma generated by Hitler or Mao Tse Tung! Hence, someone who causes others to forsake their gurus will experience similar or worse consequences as mentioned above!

[Tenzin K]

There was once I heard from a Lama saying that if we make someone leave their Guru we must make sure that we are able to bring that person to enlightenment. This shows how much a Guru responsibility is which to bring one for liberation. Even for one to forsake one’s Guru there shows what kind of person we are and obviously we have not follow the teaching correctly.

Spiritual learning is very important for everyone at this degenerate time. Nothing could save us from negative rebirth unless we gaining much merits to understand and practice dharma and eventually to enlightenment. We should support each other towards the spiritual journey even though we are not from the same lineage but we could create the harmonious among the dharma brothers and sisters because the key is not influencing others but is to encourage others to follow what their Guru’s says because without devotion and clean samaya one will not get attainment and further their practices.

[lotus1]

If we are looking at the law of karma, bringing Dharma to others have a lot of good karma or merits,  so vice versa, bringing others away from Dharma will have a lot of negative karma. One’s Guru is very important, as he would guide and show one the way to practice and bring one to be out from Samsara and to be enlightened, so, if we are causing someone to abandon his or her teachers, definitely the karma is worse.

[Aurore]

In addition to what Big Uncle has highlighted from the 50 stanzas of Guru Devotion, the repercussions are surely very bad:-

(10) Having become the disciple of such a protecting (Guru), should you then despise him from your heart, you will reap continual suffering as if you had disparaged all the Buddhas.

(11) If you are so foolish as to despise your Guru, you will contract contagious diseases and those caused by harmful spirits. You will die(a horrible death) caused by demons, plagues or poison.

(12) You will be killed by (wicked) kings or fire, by poisonous snakes, water, witches or bandits, by harmful spirits or savages, and then be reborn in a hell.

(13) Never disturb your Guru’s mind. Should you be foolish and happen to do this, you will surely boil in hell.


By causing others to break their samaya (leaving and having bad thoughts about their guru), this person is also breaking his/her samaya and will receive the same repercussions.

If we can receive merit from encouraging others to dharma, we can also receive demerit from turning others away.


(16) (If from a lack of awareness you have shown disrespect) to your Guru, reverently present an offering to him and seek his forgiveness. Then in the future such harm as plagues will not befall you.

As a Buddha, a Guru will never hold a grudge, showing him disrespect cannot possibly offend or hurt him. The only one you harm is yourself. Therefore if you repent and beg his forgiveness, he will accept what you offer with great compassion. Then by the force of your faith, respect and devotion, you need not experience great misfortune.

The beneficial effects of Guru-devotion and the dire consequences of a breach of it are not rewards and punishments from a godly Guru. They follow directly from cause and effect. Your Guru is the focal point for your practices leading to Enlightenment. The more devoted you are towards the state of perfection he represents, the closer you come toward this goal. Despising him can only tale you further away into darkness and ignorance.

Point 16 from the 50 stanzas of Guru Devotion shows it is possible to seek for forgiveness. People who has done harm and caused others to leave have more chances to repent if they are still with their guru. How about those who has completely left and whose mind is less stabil? Will this person meet dharma in the future ever again?

Time to contemplate deeply before we cause schism and put other's happiness in jeopardy because of our selfish, unhappy mind.