The instant animosity towards Shugdenpas

[Ensapa]

I guess this kind of patterns towards someone we don't like are almost the same in all religions. Many Christians wants to spread the compassion and love of Jesus, but when someone who is LGBT, suddenly the compassion is gone. Same as how some people treated Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Like Beggar said, platforms such as this forum are important to spread Dharma without hatred and anger.

There is a saying in Buddhism, where even a person has performed hideous acts such as killing, if he is willing to let go of his knife, he has a chance to be a Buddha. Why can't we all have this kind of compassion?

Conditional compassion is just so funny and sad because it goes against the values of compassion that the Buddha taught. It is like them anti Dorje Shugden practitioners making prayers saying that we will only be kind to all mother sentient beings except for the mother sentient beings who have been tainted by Dorje Shugden...it doesnt really make sense in the Buddhist context because all beings are supposed to be loved unconditionally. Perhaps they misread of what loving others unconditionally mean? But in any case, if it was not for the Dorje Shugden ban, we would not be able to see such display of human nature that uses the Buddha's teachings as a mask for their internal demons, so i do find this side effect of the ban very interesting indeed.

[WisdomBeing]

I totally agree with Zach - why provoke them? I'm sorry to say that, although you may entertain ideas that the Dalai Lama's ban has done some good, this Facebook page reveals the real, ugly schismatic truth.

I think it would be better to stay away from Dalai Lama supporters. - who are all, almost exclusively anti-Shugden - if you practise Dorje Shugden, otherwise you're guilty of provoking them. Just do your own practice and don't try to evangelise where your efforts are not appreciated.

Funnily enough, i did not intend to provoke them at all... it was them flying at me with bells on! I also was not addressing Dalai Lama supporters though i would hazard a guess that majority of Vajrayana practitioners are Dalai Lama supporters? Anyway, regardless of being attacked, their comments keep pushing my post to the top of their page so anyone who visits their page will see my post! Ironic (and stupid on their part!).

[Ensapa]

Funnily enough, i did not intend to provoke them at all... it was them flying at me with bells on! I also was not addressing Dalai Lama supporters though i would hazard a guess that majority of Vajrayana practitioners are Dalai Lama supporters? Anyway, regardless of being attacked, their comments keep pushing my post to the top of their page so anyone who visits their page will see my post! Ironic (and stupid on their part!).

In a way, it does look like reverse psychology promotion as the people who keep bad mouthing Dorje Shugden do not realize how very unbuddhist do they appear to others and how stupid they sound to people who are just neutral or who are not involved with the whole Shugden debacle. Somehow, they forget all of the Buddha's teachings and all that they have learnt and practiced in one moment of talking about Dorje Shugden. Again, it would be interesting to ask the people in that thread if they are Gelugpa, because if they are not Gelug, then what has Dorje Shugden have got to do with them from their point of view? And if they are Gelugpa, then they should realize that their lineage Gurus have dabbled in Shugden before and they should keep quiet.

[Lineageholder]

Funnily enough, i did not intend to provoke them at all... it was them flying at me with bells on! I also was not addressing Dalai Lama supporters though i would hazard a guess that majority of Vajrayana practitioners are Dalai Lama supporters? Anyway, regardless of being attacked, their comments keep pushing my post to the top of their page so anyone who visits their page will see my post! Ironic (and stupid on their part!).

Dear Kate, you may not have intended to provoke them, but then is it not a little naive to go to a forum where the majority of people are Tibetan Buddhists who are devoted to the Dalai Lama and uphold his views about Dorje Shugden and then start talking about this subject?  This is the reason why discussion of NKT and Dorje Shugden is banned from some Buddhist forums - it's a very divisive topic because of people's strong feelings about it.  Discussions quickly degenerate into angry name calling and then the moderators have to deal with the fall out.

I do think it's sad that Buddhists are showing the bad example of getting angry and upset about the issue but knowing that, I don't think it's wise  to 'walk into the lion's den' as it were and start a discussion about something that makes the majority of Tibetan Buddhists (or so it seems!) angry and upset.

Degenerate times, huh?

[Ensapa]

Dear Kate, you may not have intended to provoke them, but then is it not a little naive to go to a forum where the majority of people are Tibetan Buddhists who are devoted to the Dalai Lama and uphold his views about Dorje Shugden and then start talking about this subject?  This is the reason why discussion of NKT and Dorje Shugden is banned from some Buddhist forums - it's a very divisive topic because of people's strong feelings about it.  Discussions quickly degenerate into angry name calling and then the moderators have to deal with the fall out.

I do think it's sad that Buddhists are showing the bad example of getting angry and upset about the issue but knowing that, I don't think it's wise  to 'walk into the lion's den' as it were and start a discussion about something that makes the majority of Tibetan Buddhists (or so it seems!) angry and upset.

Degenerate times, huh?

Sometimes when i read some of this hate stuff, NKT always gets dragged into it and people often say how much NKT has hurt them and now they're practicing another tradition blabla...but in reality, them running away from NKT and not facing the difficulties have made them worse people in general and made them more cloistered. They could have viewed whatever difficulties they go through in their Dharma center as purification and stick with it till the very end, and at least gain some mental stability and freedom from depression, hate and bitterness, but i guess some people just love samsara more than the others.

[beggar]

hah. This isn't about an NKT thing or a non NKT thing. It's shouldn't even be about a "Buddhist" thing or a Dalai Lama thing. Surely, it is about just being matured, intelligent, thinking adults and kind people! The "instant animosity" that honeydakini talks about is a great irony in itself; also the preconceived notions and pre-fixed hatred of certain forums that Lineageholder talks about. How can we even call ourselves Buddhists or purport to have a "forum" (which in itself suggests openness and discussions) when we go in with all our blinkers on and guns flaring against those we have already previously decided to dislike. That's like saying, "For the sake of all sentient beings (except Dorje Shugden practitioners), I will gain enlightenment".

Anyhow, while I do agree about it not being necessary to walk into a lion's den (ie not being unnecessarily provocative), I do feel it's necessary to keep talking, even in such spaces. To just skirt around these people and space is only to show that we are afraid of them and to 'allow' them to continue acting and speaking in such bigoted ways. We have as much right to discuss on a Vajrayana Buddhist group as any one else, regardless of our practice! After all, the group isn't just about being for or against Shugden; it is about many other issues and we should have the right to be able to talk freely there on this as well as many, many other issues.

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Beggar

Well said - this is exactly what i wanted to do by raising the issues in the Vajrayana facebook. Many Vajrayana practitioners, especially the newer ones, may not even have heard of Dorje Shugden so this was one of the reasons why i wanted to bring it up. The critics of Dorje Shugden shoot themselves in the foot by their rude reactions and behaviour. Hopefully the open minded Vajrayana practitioners will read the thread and think what is the fuss about, come to this website for more information and be educated. Truly i am not seeking for them to become Dorje Shugden practitioners though of course it would be great if they did, but my wish was just for more people to understand the situation and if they do not want the practice, at the very least, they will not condemn it because they are informed.

[Ensapa]

hah. This isn't about an NKT thing or a non NKT thing. It's shouldn't even be about a "Buddhist" thing or a Dalai Lama thing. Surely, it is about just being matured, intelligent, thinking adults and kind people! The "instant animosity" that honeydakini talks about is a great irony in itself; also the preconceived notions and pre-fixed hatred of certain forums that Lineageholder talks about. How can we even call ourselves Buddhists or purport to have a "forum" (which in itself suggests openness and discussions) when we go in with all our blinkers on and guns flaring against those we have already previously decided to dislike. That's like saying, "For the sake of all sentient beings (except Dorje Shugden practitioners), I will gain enlightenment".

Anyhow, while I do agree about it not being necessary to walk into a lion's den (ie not being unnecessarily provocative), I do feel it's necessary to keep talking, even in such spaces. To just skirt around these people and space is only to show that we are afraid of them and to 'allow' them to continue acting and speaking in such bigoted ways. We have as much right to discuss on a Vajrayana Buddhist group as any one else, regardless of our practice! After all, the group isn't just about being for or against Shugden; it is about many other issues and we should have the right to be able to talk freely there on this as well as many, many other issues.

I personally think that Dorje Shugden should be discussed there and also that the conversation there would benefit people as it would expose them to what is really going on as opposed to not really knowing what is happening with the whole Dorje Shugden issue and never learning about it at all. Perhaps, some people may turn to Dorje Shugden for help or they would learn more about Dorje Shugden and receive assistance from him. People of our time need Dorje Shugden. It is not about just promoting another protector, it is about bridging between what people need and to something that can help them. That is how I see it but we cant be too pushy about it.

I am sure that as a result of the post in facebook, many people would want to find out more about Dorje Shugden and perhaps come here to learn more about the Dharma protector and will soon learn that he is not as sectarian as those people on facebook claim he is.

[Big Uncle]

Well, the truth of the matter is that we can all discuss about how the other party should act. We can impose all our Buddhist ideals onto the other party but when they don't want to abide by it, we can't do much about it except bitching about it on this forum. We can't live their lives for them nor can we stop the karma that will come back for them and for the rest of us, which is dependent upon on our actions.

But then again, there's nothing really wrong about bitching about it. It would be great there were more from the Dalai Lama supporters that would come in here to talk and discuss with us like Tenzin Gyatso. Somehow I wonder why they are not forthcoming and more  don't come on this forum because they too are secretly practicing Dorje Shugden. I am sure not everyone is just silently reading and if they are silently reading, i must be because they know that Dorje Shugden is not a ghost but actually the emanation of Manjushri. 

[Ensapa]

Actually, I have been going round with a little social experiment, and that is by posting writeups about Dorje Shugden in various websites and forums. What is interesting is that about 75% of these so called Buddhist websites banned my account and deleted my comments. Ironically, one of these forums are called Buddhism without Boundaries, and they're supposedly okay with talking about Dorje Shugden (not stated in their terms and conditions that I am not supposed to talk about it) and even Huffington post deleted my comments, when in their FAQs and terms and conditions, they encourage free speech and for people to post their thoughts. I am completely aware that Huffington post is controlled media which means that they do want to sell a certain angle of things and any views that do not fit in will be removed.

So, there is discrimination against Dorje Shugden practitioners. They are not allowed to voice their opinions in many Buddhist platforms. If this is not suppression or discrimination, what is?

[WisdomBeing]

What did you post on Huff po, Ensapa? Was it relevant to the article you were commenting on? if it wasn't, it is likely that the moderators would just delete it, not because of its content but because of relevancy. I still find it unbelievable that Buddhists are completely unable to have a decent discussion about Dorje Shugden. But you know what, usually the name calling starts when they cannot refute the logic of why Dorje Shugden IS a Buddha. It's really like being back in kindergarden sometimes. May Dorje Shugden bless them all!

[Ensapa]

What did you post on Huff po, Ensapa? Was it relevant to the article you were commenting on? if it wasn't, it is likely that the moderators would just delete it, not because of its content but because of relevancy. I still find it unbelievable that Buddhists are completely unable to have a decent discussion about Dorje Shugden. But you know what, usually the name calling starts when they cannot refute the logic of why Dorje Shugden IS a Buddha. It's really like being back in kindergarden sometimes. May Dorje Shugden bless them all!

I posted on 2 places: the article of the Dalai Lama with Nelson Mandela, with material related to the Dalai Lama suppressing and banning Dorje Shugden, and what would Nelson Mandela say if he knew about what the Dalai Lama did, and also on the post where various Buddhist leaders signed a memorandum against the violence against the rohgiyas in myanmar, asking them again what would they react if they know that the Dalai Lama has been suppressing Dorje Shugden. Both comments were not approved...probably because it did not fit their agenda to promote Dalai Lama as a compassionate pope of Buddhism. After all, free speech is subjective. But it is still sad to see how discrimination against talk about Dorje Shugden is rampant across the internet.

[honeydakini]

I'm surprised this post has gotten so much discussion. Thank you for your thoughts! I am glad to know there is support here at the very least!

I do agree with WisdomBeing that it's very strange how difficult it is to hold a normal discussion about Dorje Shugden. It IS an issue within the Buddhist world and it IS an important one. Can't we just talk about it like matured adults? If it really was such an important and even 'harmful' issue as some claim it to be, then all the more, shouldn't we talk about it to educate people on the issues involved? Shouldn't we talk about it more so people have an understand what it's about? Why do we just shut it off? And is that Buddhist behaviour to just stop discussion and debate like this? The very nature of Buddhist practice and learning is to be able to question and debate in order to understand an issue better. Why does this apply to every subject except the Dorje Shugden one? (which is still also Buddhist).

I agree too with Beggar though, that we shouldn't be disheartened or avoid these places but keep talking. It's important to keep the discussion going and have our voices heard, no matter how much they're being beaten down. If nothing else, we will prove to the world that Shugdenpas have faith in their practice; and speak and act maturedly and kindly.

[Ensapa]

I'm surprised this post has gotten so much discussion. Thank you for your thoughts! I am glad to know there is support here at the very least!

I do agree with WisdomBeing that it's very strange how difficult it is to hold a normal discussion about Dorje Shugden. It IS an issue within the Buddhist world and it IS an important one. Can't we just talk about it like matured adults? If it really was such an important and even 'harmful' issue as some claim it to be, then all the more, shouldn't we talk about it to educate people on the issues involved? Shouldn't we talk about it more so people have an understand what it's about? Why do we just shut it off? And is that Buddhist behaviour to just stop discussion and debate like this? The very nature of Buddhist practice and learning is to be able to question and debate in order to understand an issue better. Why does this apply to every subject except the Dorje Shugden one? (which is still also Buddhist).

I agree too with Beggar though, that we shouldn't be disheartened or avoid these places but keep talking. It's important to keep the discussion going and have our voices heard, no matter how much they're being beaten down. If nothing else, we will prove to the world that Shugdenpas have faith in their practice; and speak and act maturedly and kindly.

the discrimination against Shugdenpas is clear and evident across the net which I myself has experienced. There is nowhere else online where people can discuss, share and understand more about Dorje Shugden other than this website freely without any problems, harsh clampdowns or being at the receiving end of the wrath of the Dalai Lama's followers or having their voices stifled by moderators who think that by not talking about Dorje Shugden, it would bring  more benefit. But the thing is, when moderators do that, it promotes ignorance and causes people to learn less and suffer more as it could be that there are people whose solution to their problems is Dorje Shugden, but due to these Dalai Lama groupies, these people have to suffer more and might not even get a solution to their problems and might even leave Buddhism altogether.

[Manjushri]

In the Tibetan Buddhist world, Dorje Shugden practitioners are like people with a transmittable disease, where everyone avoids.

Funny that people are judged by what they choose to do, not by who they inherently are. Dorje Shugden practitioners have a kind heart too, have wisdom, compassion, genorisity and are just like non-DS practitioners. You cannot distinguish between a DS practitioner and a non DS practitioner just by looking at them. In the same way, they should not be discriminated against because they are just like you and I. Many attained masters and lamas are DS practitioners too, and by far much more virtuous and compassionate than some non ds-practitioners.

The animosity towards Shugdenpas can be likened to say, a Buddhist  and a Christian. What the Dalai Lama has said is saying his way or no other way. A Buddhist shouldn't discriminate a Christian becuase religious freedom pervades. In the same way, Shugdenpas shouldnt be discriminated against by non-shugdenpas