Dalai Lama's Latest Words on Dorje Shugden

[Lineageholder]

Hi everyone,

This comes from the latest interview with the Dalai Lama on BBC Radio Nottingham

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2008/05/26/dalai_lama_interview_feature.shtml

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Sumeer Kalyani: Of course, with secularism comes a whole different viewpoint of people from different walks of life, for example in Nottingham we've seen protests from people who may not agree with your policies, for example Tibetans who say that His Holiness hasn't done something right.  What is your reaction to those people who criticize you? How do you cope  with that criticism?

Dalai Lama: ah, that is something different...  the Shugden group?

Sumeer Kalyani: Yes.

Dalai Lama: That is actually, strictly speaking, not religion.  This spirit worship.  So actually I myself since early 50 until 70, I myself also worship that (laughs) out of ignorance.  Then eventually I notice...this spirit happen during 5th Dalai Lama.  The 5th Dalai Lama, I think this happened during his lifetime, so he knows, I think, much better the reality.  So he consider this spirit is evil spirit.  So therefore after I realized that though his own autobiography and also some of his sort of, writings, and also many important lamas also consider that this is evil spirit, so therefore it remain lasted more than 370 years, it remain very controversial worship.  So then it is my duty or moral responsibility to make clear, but whether listen or not, up to them. So some people criticize me, I banned that sort of spirit worship, that is not true.  I just simply make clear what is the reality, whether as we are follower of Nalanda tradition, we are not spirit worshipper.  So there is a sort of danger, I feel in my eye, the degenerating, the pure Nalanda tradition eventually become like spirit worship.  That is not good. 

And then another point is sectarian. Follower of this spirit, for example, among the yellow hat sect who worship this, there are stories, anyone who keep even text from other tradition in his or her room, this spirit will harm you, that kind of thing.  So sectarian sort of practice very strong.  Therefore my approach is promotion of non-sectarian.  I myself receive teaching from all different Tibetan Buddhist sect, like that.  Some of them very, very critical. Some even describe me as the destroyer of  the Buddhadharma (laughs) okay....so anyway that expression they are using, freedom of expression, so welcome, very good.

Sumeer Kalyani: Obviously, despite the protest, despite the criticism, you have such a mass following, people would throng to see you at venues like here in Nottingham  What's the secret of your success?  How do you attract so many people to you?

Dalai Lama: I don't know, I don't know.  One thing I feel, I always talk frankly, straightforward and honestly, so perhaps I think people eventually realize this person talking sincerely (laughs) that might be one factor.

[Ewin]

It was clear from what the DL said in the US (Colgate Uni) "that every person has a right to practice the religion of their choice" and his comments in the UK, "that the DS prayer should not be practiced" is clearly contradicting himself.

Very sincere he is!

[Lineageholder]

Taking the first point of his criticism of Dorje Shugden practice,  it seems that he trusts the Fifth Dalai Lama's view more than that of his own Teacher Trijang Dorjechang.  He says " The 5th Dalai Lama, I think this happened during his lifetime, so he knows, I think, much better the reality.  So he consider this spirit is evil spirit."  How does the Fifth Dalai Lama know much better what the nature of Dorje Shugden is?  Where are his valid reasons for believing this?

Who are the other Teachers who said that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit?  The stuff on the Antishugden website is inconclusive on this point.

[Guru]

And then another point is sectarian. Follower of this spirit, for example, among the yellow hat sect who worship this, there are stories, anyone who keep even text from other tradition in his or her room, this spirit will harm you, that kind of thing. So sectarian sort of practice very strong.  Therefore my approach is promotion of non-sectarian.  I myself receive teaching from all different Tibetan Buddhist sect, like that.  Some some of them very, very critical. Some even describe me as the destroyer of  the Buddhadharma (laughs) okay....so anyway that expression they are using, freedom of expression, so welcome, very good.

IS THIS REALLY TRUE.

[Like Space]

Interesting how he gives an interview to the BBC, yet he won't talk to us. Is it because he knows he will be beaten in a debate in about thirty seconds?
LS

[Vajra]

Yes. my dear Like Space, I was thinking about that...he knows he will be beaten in a debate in about thirty seconds. Many buddhist know that Ven. Geshe Kelsang, another lamas, etc, have openly invited the Dalai Lama to debate and of course he has refused, he knows he won't have any chance to win, nor giving valid reasons. Our speech is very diffrerent than those that are anti-Shugden, they do not debate with valid reasons, actually ¡they do not debate!

But what really makes me very sad is the Dalai Lama's nonsense speech... and the people yet amazed by his "wise" words...

[Ensapa]

This is the kind of methods that HHDL/CTA use to sustain the ban: by deceiving people who do not know any better. While HHDL does it with the intention of planting more seeds in their mind (notice how he never harps on the practitioners of Dorje Shugden and he does not really attack Dorje Shugden directly, but implies that the harm that Dorje Shugden can cause are mainly from hearsays. CTA does it with the "either you're with us or against us" approach which is very hardline and unbuddhist.

With this website, everything can be undone very easily as people will know what is going on rather than being kept in the dark and never knowing the truth.

[diamond girl]

I actually read this quite differently. I actually think that HHDL is subtly loosening his stand on the Ban.

So some people criticize me, I banned that sort of spirit worship, that is not true. - does HHDL mean that he did not ban? With this line can it mean that he is not upholding the Ban so strictly? So when someone like myself who is somewhat not fanatical about this matter, I would read it as HHDL is not fervently enforcing the Ban anymore... New people like myself can perhaps use discretion and not fear to learn more?

Some even describe me as the destroyer of  the Buddhadharma (laughs) okay....so anyway that expression they are using, freedom of expression, so welcome, very good. - He is inviting people to criticize him. To me this opens up debate and thus allowing people to speak up. When people speak up, whether in support or in criticism, it creates news. News creates awareness and information. This actually promoted Dorje Shugden.

Realize how openly he answers the subject to be Dorje Shugden when the interviewer was obviously trying to be subtle...HHDL opened up the subject matter of DS. He just promoted DS... controversy sells.

I apologise if my views are slightly wayward but I do see this positively in terms of selling news and thus promotion of Dorje Shugden.

[Big Uncle]

And then another point is sectarian. Follower of this spirit, for example, among the yellow hat sect who worship this, there are stories, anyone who keep even text from other tradition in his or her room, this spirit will harm you, that kind of thing. So sectarian sort of practice very strong.  Therefore my approach is promotion of non-sectarian.  I myself receive teaching from all different Tibetan Buddhist sect, like that.  Some some of them very, very critical. Some even describe me as the destroyer of  the Buddhadharma (laughs) okay....so anyway that expression they are using, freedom of expression, so welcome, very good.

IS THIS REALLY TRUE.

Dear Guru,

How can Dorje Shugden harm us? I have been practicing Dorje Shugden for over 7 years now and I have not experience anything bad but instead notice positive spiritual growth. I think you have to observe people who practice Dorje Shugden yourself to make the decision on this matter.

I have come across extremely pivotal situations and I can feel Dorje Shugden guiding me through and for some people, I have heard real miracles happened to them when they pray to Dorje Shugden during dire situations and they were saved from it. Just check out the testimonial section of this website ( http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/testimonials/ ). I have not heard of a single practitioner complain that Dorje Shugden had harmed them.

[Ensapa]

And then another point is sectarian. Follower of this spirit, for example, among the yellow hat sect who worship this, there are stories, anyone who keep even text from other tradition in his or her room, this spirit will harm you, that kind of thing. So sectarian sort of practice very strong.  Therefore my approach is promotion of non-sectarian.  I myself receive teaching from all different Tibetan Buddhist sect, like that.  Some some of them very, very critical. Some even describe me as the destroyer of  the Buddhadharma (laughs) okay....so anyway that expression they are using, freedom of expression, so welcome, very good.

IS THIS REALLY TRUE.

Obviously, this is far from the truth. In fact, it is very far from the truth. Why? Because Zong Rinpoche, Zopa Rinpoche, Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche are all very well versed in Nyingma teachings and they are also Dorje Shugden practitioners. If Dorje Shugden harms practitioners who study the lineages of others, then all of these Lamas would have received negative repercussions by now. Why have they not received his wrath? Also, why has the Dalai Lama not been punished? He has Nyingma Gurus and he practiced Dorje Shugden before too.

If you wanna see if it is true, you could check the results of those who practice him.

[vajratruth]

I find the Dalai Lama’s answer quite intriguing. Consider that His Holiness was on a major news channel that reaches a world audience it was His Holiness’s opportunity to state very clearly His reasons for imposing the ban. If His Holiness truly believed that the Protector is an evil spirit, then His Holiness does have a duty to warn everyone who may be engaging in it and that was His opportunity to kill the practice and prevent harm to come upon its practitioners. And yet the Dalai Lama was very coy with his answer and if He did make a point, it was that Dorje Shugden’s practice is not banned.

It is also interesting that The Dalai Lama mentioned the Nalanda tradition and implied that it was important to keep the Nalanda Tradition pure. Nalanda can trace its roots back to Nagajurna who founded the Madyamaka view of emptiness, which approach forms the basis of Lama Tsongkhapa’s teachings. And guess who is the Uncommon Protector who swore an oath to protect these teachings from degenerating? None other than Dorje Shugden whose purpose of being is to protect an all-important aspect of the Dharma.

To me the Dalai Lama’s answer drops clues that invite people to go and investigate further. His Holiness mentioned the 5th Dalai Lama and said the 5th Dalai Lama should know. Anyone looking up the history of the 5th Dalai Lama will soon discover that his autobiography confirms a lot of what has been said about Dorje Shugden by its practitioners, for example the illustrious Trijang Rinpoche.  Moreover it was the 5th Dalai Lama who founded Trode Kangsar, the House Of Dorje Shugden and composed a brilliant prayer to the Protecto

[Ensapa]

I find the Dalai Lama’s answer quite intriguing. Consider that His Holiness was on a major news channel that reaches a world audience it was His Holiness’s opportunity to state very clearly His reasons for imposing the ban. If His Holiness truly believed that the Protector is an evil spirit, then His Holiness does have a duty to warn everyone who may be engaging in it and that was His opportunity to kill the practice and prevent harm to come upon its practitioners. And yet the Dalai Lama was very coy with his answer and if He did make a point, it was that Dorje Shugden’s practice is not banned.

It is also interesting that The Dalai Lama mentioned the Nalanda tradition and implied that it was important to keep the Nalanda Tradition pure. Nalanda can trace its roots back to Nagajurna who founded the Madyamaka view of emptiness, which approach forms the basis of Lama Tsongkhapa’s teachings. And guess who is the Uncommon Protector who swore an oath to protect these teachings from degenerating? None other than Dorje Shugden whose purpose of being is to protect an all-important aspect of the Dharma.

To me the Dalai Lama’s answer drops clues that invite people to go and investigate further. His Holiness mentioned the 5th Dalai Lama and said the 5th Dalai Lama should know. Anyone looking up the history of the 5th Dalai Lama will soon discover that his autobiography confirms a lot of what has been said about Dorje Shugden by its practitioners, for example the illustrious Trijang Rinpoche.  Moreover it was the 5th Dalai Lama who founded Trode Kangsar, the House Of Dorje Shugden and composed a brilliant prayer to the Protecto

The Dalai Lama's talk and promotion of Nalanda is interesting as Dorje Shugden's round hat actually represents Nagajurna's teachings, who is complete and perfect. If HHDL and Dorje Shugden are promoting the same thing, should they not get along? If they dont get along, then what is Buddhism? Where is the Dharma? Or perhaps, this could be a really huge social experiment that will test the courage and mettle of Buddhists in general when they take sides on the matter of the ban? I personally feel that HHDL will lift the ban soon as he is losing grip on the international community.

[Gabby Potter]

I agree with Diamond Girl, I think that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is actually loosing His stand on Dorje Shugden matters, which I would take it as a good sign.

[psylotripitaka]

Always this redirection (distraction from the heart of the issue) to "spirit"…and the 5th.

1. Interesting that nobody ever just says: 'do you believe it is ok to harm others because they have a different religious view than you, because that is essentially what is going on in your proven campaign against Shugden practitioners'


2. The 5th changed his mind realizing he made a mistake, so it is incredibly strange that he constantly cites the 5th to back up his claim. There's a temple, in Lhasa of all places, erected for Dorje Shugden by the 5th Dalai Lama, so what the hell, does he think we're all a bunch of fucking idiots that ignore plain facts.

This whole thing is so unbelievably ridiculous. I mean wtf? We are talking about what are suppose to be some of the most highly educated people on the planet regarding logical debate, yet here they are harming people while talking about kindness. If that is not the beginning of the death of Buddhadharma, I don't know what is! What compassion I have for this poor old guy. That is the heaviest negative karma there can be!

[Tenzin K]

Stated that the practice since 370 years ago and is that mean all the high lamas who practices Dorje Shugden before were all wrong due to ignorance too and only the Dalai Lama now found it’s wrong? It’s really a humiliation to all the great Gurus and attain Lamas.

So many evidence proven that those high lamas that practices Shugden took their rebirth and recognised. If Shugden is spirit all Shugden Lamas will be in hell rather to be here now to continue their legacy and benefiting more people around the world.

I really hope the Dalai Lama can give a better reasoning or rather meet up with the Shugden Lama to resolve the ban issue instead of keep giving the baseless statement.