Abolish the Dorje Shugden ban to further the Tibetan Cause

[Ensapa]

I found this wonderful article up on the Dorje Shugden website today. It resonates with my thoughts exactly with the whole issue of Dorje Shugden especially on the whole part where the entire banning of Dorje Shugden is actually detrimental to the cause of Tibetan independence which is true in many ways. This is my favorite statement in the article:

China’s worry is augmented by looking at the Dalai Lama’s refusal to stamp out self-immolations by the Tibetans. The Chinese have seen how the Dalai Lama has been so influential that he is able to implement and enforce a religious ban on Dorje Shugden, a popular protector deity. If he can use his influence on the Tibetan people to get them to follow his religious view, then he can also use it to get the Tibetan people to toe the line with the agenda of self-autonomy and to stamp out self-immolation completely. Now, the Chinese knows this and to the Chinese, the lack of anti-immolation conviction from CTA and the Dalai Lama reaffirms their belief that the Dalai Lama and the CTA are not really seeking self-autonomy but total independence.

[vajrastorm]

There are currently two issues that seem to convince Beijing that ,though the  Dalai Lama may be publicly declaring that he wants only autonomy for Tibet, what is happening on the ground shows otherwise

The first issue is that of the spate of self-immolations by mainly young Tibetans(including many monks),which have been allowed to go on and left unchecked by the Dalai Lama and CTA.The Dalai Lama and CTA have made no effort to stamp this out. One negative message being  sent out to Beijing is that the Dalai Lama and CTA support these self-immolations which are being carried out in the name of the struggle for Tibet's independence. That means that, in reality, they support the struggle for Tibet's independence, despite the Dalai Lama's open declaration of support for the Middle Way/autonomy.

Another disturbing message is that the Dalai Lama and CTA support activities that have  a high potential of causing  social and economic instability. For Beijing ,rushing to contain this possible fallout of the spate of immolations in China, this is anathema to all their efforts to promote peace and stability and to contain unrest in China.

But what is more alarming for Beijing is to see how the ban on Dorje Shugden is creating a schism and a potential for great unrest within the Tibetan community. Judging by how the Dalai Lama and the  CTA seem to be enforcing the ban,and the subsequent violence and unrest that ensued,Beijing must be wondering how far the Tibetan government can be trusted in terms of having  a genuine desire for mere autonomy for Tibet for the sake of peace, stability  and democracy.

The best way for CTA to assure Beijing that they are independent of the Dalai Lama and that they are a purely secular government, is for them to effect the lifting of the ban on Shugden practice, which is an entirely religious matter. If they can do this, they will be showing Beijing very clearly  that they are no longer tied to the apron strings of the Dalai Lama, and that they have the political power and the will to act for the sake of peace for all parties.

[Ensapa]

There are currently two issues that seem to convince Beijing that ,though the  Dalai Lama may be publicly declaring that he wants only autonomy for Tibet, what is happening on the ground shows otherwise

The first issue is that of the spate of self-immolations by mainly young Tibetans(including many monks),which have been allowed to go on and left unchecked by the Dalai Lama and CTA.The Dalai Lama and CTA have made no effort to stamp this out. One negative message being  sent out to Beijing is that the Dalai Lama and CTA support these self-immolations which are being carried out in the name of the struggle for Tibet's independence. That means that, in reality, they support the struggle for Tibet's independence, despite the Dalai Lama's open declaration of support for the Middle Way/autonomy.

Another disturbing message is that the Dalai Lama and CTA support activities that have  a high potential of causing  social and economic instability. For Beijing ,rushing to contain this possible fallout of the spate of immolations in China, this is anathema to all their efforts to promote peace and stability and to contain unrest in China.

But what is more alarming for Beijing is to see how the ban on Dorje Shugden is creating a schism and a potential for great unrest within the Tibetan community. Judging by how the Dalai Lama and the  CTA seem to be enforcing the ban,and the subsequent violence and unrest that ensued,Beijing must be wondering how far the Tibetan government can be trusted in terms of having  a genuine desire for mere autonomy for Tibet for the sake of peace, stability  and democracy.

The best way for CTA to assure Beijing that they are independent of the Dalai Lama and that they are a purely secular government, is for them to effect the lifting of the ban on Shugden practice, which is an entirely religious matter. If they can do this, they will be showing Beijing very clearly  that they are no longer tied to the apron strings of the Dalai Lama, and that they have the political power and the will to act for the sake of peace for all parties.

It is the lack of consistency that irks China as anyone would assume that everyone in Dharamsala will listen to the Dalai Lama. TYC demanding independence while the Dalai Lama pushing for the middle way makes the Dalai Lama look like a liar outright, and that is what China is very displeased about. Basically, HHDL is being punished for the actions of the TYC, and it is pretty obvious at that and the TYC better clean up their act before they get HHDL into more trouble.

The other thing is the ban. The way it is implemented makes them look barbaric. Although China has bans on certain religions, but they have never incited the people to go against them. I have yet to hear of China enforcing a rule that it is forbidden to sell provisions to Falun gong members, but you see that happening in Dharamsala. So, CTA is a lot worse than China when compared in this way.

[Big Uncle]

The Tibetans don't realize that the Chinese would actually be very willing to allow the Tibetans to rule Xinjiang (Tibet) if they show signs of loyalty and ability to enforce a secular ruling. Although the Chinese dabble in the search for incarnate lamas, they are doing that just to ensure that incarnate lamas remain loyal to China so that they will instill loyalty in the Tibetan population. It is through the incarnate lamas that the Chinese government hope to control the Tibetans because no other way would be more effective.

However, although the Dalai Lama and perhaps the Tibetan envoys have been negotiating on the grounds of self-autonomy with the Chinese, things remain a stalemate because the Tibetans themselves are not showing that they really want that. The spate of self-immolation cases is pretty obvious as people are burning themselves up while calling for independence and the fact that CTA and the Dalai Lama has yet to issue strong statements to condemn self-immolation says a lot. To the Chinese, it is obvious the Tibetans would never settle for self-autonomy and that's why there's stalemate with the dialogue.

This is just too bad because Sino-Tibetan talks could have gone through further milestones if the Tibetans were a little more sincere about it. I am not sure if the they would ever come to a conclusion but at least it is a step towards returning to Tibet. Right now, the dream of many Tibetans returning would be a faraway dream.

[Ensapa]

The Tibetans don't realize that the Chinese would actually be very willing to allow the Tibetans to rule Xinjiang (Tibet) if they show signs of loyalty and ability to enforce a secular ruling. Although the Chinese dabble in the search for incarnate lamas, they are doing that just to ensure that incarnate lamas remain loyal to China so that they will instill loyalty in the Tibetan population. It is through the incarnate lamas that the Chinese government hope to control the Tibetans because no other way would be more effective.

However, although the Dalai Lama and perhaps the Tibetan envoys have been negotiating on the grounds of self-autonomy with the Chinese, things remain a stalemate because the Tibetans themselves are not showing that they really want that. The spate of self-immolation cases is pretty obvious as people are burning themselves up while calling for independence and the fact that CTA and the Dalai Lama has yet to issue strong statements to condemn self-immolation says a lot. To the Chinese, it is obvious the Tibetans would never settle for self-autonomy and that's why there's stalemate with the dialogue.

This is just too bad because Sino-Tibetan talks could have gone through further milestones if the Tibetans were a little more sincere about it. I am not sure if the they would ever come to a conclusion but at least it is a step towards returning to Tibet. Right now, the dream of many Tibetans returning would be a faraway dream.

If the Tibetans truly and sincerely cooperated with the Dalai Lama fully, they would have gotten back Tibet sooner than they have thought. But unfortunately instead of cooperating with the Dalai Lama and applying the Buddha's teaching of having patience, tolerance and wisdom when dealing with this situation, they chose to deal with it in a more immature and rough method which is anything but Buddhist and thus, the results are the opposite of what they would want. The Tibetans will soon realize that only the Dalai Lama will forgive them for their mistakes and everyone else in the world will not forgive and forget that easily and it will probably take decades before they get China's trust again even if they reformed now and apologize. the Tibetans and CTA better reform themselves now as the 99 year lease on the land that they are on will be ending soon.

[WisdomBeing]

If the Tibetans truly and sincerely cooperated with the Dalai Lama fully, they would have gotten back Tibet sooner than they have thought. But unfortunately instead of cooperating with the Dalai Lama and applying the Buddha's teaching of having patience, tolerance and wisdom when dealing with this situation, they chose to deal with it in a more immature and rough method which is anything but Buddhist and thus, the results are the opposite of what they would want. The Tibetans will soon realize that only the Dalai Lama will forgive them for their mistakes and everyone else in the world will not forgive and forget that easily and it will probably take decades before they get China's trust again even if they reformed now and apologize. the Tibetans and CTA better reform themselves now as the 99 year lease on the land that they are on will be ending soon.

Sorry - i don't really get what you mean by the Tibetans cooperating with the Dalai Lama. i think that if the Tibetans actually distanced themselves from the Dalai Lama, they would gain more mileage with the Chinese authorities. For example, if the CTA abandoned the ban on Dorje Shugden practice, as it absolutely should, being a secular organization. This would show the Chinese that the Tibetans can distinguish the secular from the spiritual. Even though the Dalai Lama had 'resigned' as political head of Tibet, by the CTA maintaining the ban on Dorje Shugden, it shows that the Dalai Lama is still considered as the temporal head, even though he had said he is not. This is similar to what the Dalai Lama is accused of - that he vocalizes self-autonomy for Tibet, but that he actually wants independence. Nobody can prove or disprove what is anyone's motivation and as the Dalai Lama has said - are people calling him a liar? The proof is in the pudding.

[Ensapa]

Sorry - i don't really get what you mean by the Tibetans cooperating with the Dalai Lama. i think that if the Tibetans actually distanced themselves from the Dalai Lama, they would gain more mileage with the Chinese authorities. For example, if the CTA abandoned the ban on Dorje Shugden practice, as it absolutely should, being a secular organization. This would show the Chinese that the Tibetans can distinguish the secular from the spiritual. Even though the Dalai Lama had 'resigned' as political head of Tibet, by the CTA maintaining the ban on Dorje Shugden, it shows that the Dalai Lama is still considered as the temporal head, even though he had said he is not. This is similar to what the Dalai Lama is accused of - that he vocalizes self-autonomy for Tibet, but that he actually wants independence. Nobody can prove or disprove what is anyone's motivation and as the Dalai Lama has said - are people calling him a liar? The proof is in the pudding.

I was saying more in the lines of following the Dalai Lama's middle way policy instead of demanding for independence when i meant working together with the Dalai Lama. Also in the same vein, it is also applying and practicing the teachings that the Dalai Lama has taught them on compassion, patience, loyalty and respect. The ban when enforced with violence and discrimination shows very clearly that none of the Tibetans listen to the Dalai Lama, they just filter out what they want to hear and do those rather than really listening to the Dalai Lama. Right now, the CTA can gently enforce the ban or just lift it to show that they are not tied to the Dalai Lama and focus more on promoting the Dharma and supporting the monasteries.

[Rinchen]

I agree with Wisdom Being. It is true that by creating a distance between themselves and the Dalai Lama, it would show that they have already stepped up as a secular state. They are no longer puppets of the Dalai Lama. I believe that this was what China is afraid of, hence the reason for not allowing the Dalai Lama to go back to Tibet. They are afraid that the puppet master would be back to ask his puppets to put on a show tat China would not want to watch at all. Bearing in mind that there are extremists among Dalai Lama's followers, hence, when Dalai Lama says something they might take it wrongly causing violence that may cause injuries or death.

[Ensapa]

I agree with Wisdom Being. It is true that by creating a distance between themselves and the Dalai Lama, it would show that they have already stepped up as a secular state. They are no longer puppets of the Dalai Lama. I believe that this was what China is afraid of, hence the reason for not allowing the Dalai Lama to go back to Tibet. They are afraid that the puppet master would be back to ask his puppets to put on a show tat China would not want to watch at all. Bearing in mind that there are extremists among Dalai Lama's followers, hence, when Dalai Lama says something they might take it wrongly causing violence that may cause injuries or death.

Correction: there are many extremists amongst the Dalai Lama's followers. Some of them even from the western world in the form of westerners. What I do classify as an extremist are people who are unable to see things from an objective point of view where they can only see things from only one point of view: that the Dalai Lama will always be right no matter what and China will always be evil and anyone against the Dalai Lama is evil. And yes, you are right, these people are more than capable of violence as nothing is really holy to them except for the Dalai Lama.

[Rinchen]

Correction: there are many extremists amongst the Dalai Lama's followers. Some of them even from the western world in the form of westerners. What I do classify as an extremist are people who are unable to see things from an objective point of view where they can only see things from only one point of view: that the Dalai Lama will always be right no matter what and China will always be evil and anyone against the Dalai Lama is evil. And yes, you are right, these people are more than capable of violence as nothing is really holy to them except for the Dalai Lama.

But to some, that would be classified as Guru devotion as well. So how would you classify as what is Guru devotion and what is being a Dalai Lama extremist when their Guru is Dallai Lama himself.

As quoted from wikipedia, "A guru is seen as the Buddha, the very root of spiritual realization and the basis of the path. Without the teacher, it is asserted, there can be no experience or insight."

Hence, it would be correct to classify the Dalai Lama as their Guru as well. Then what would it take for them to be a Dalai Lama extremist?

[Ensapa]

But to some, that would be classified as Guru devotion as well. So how would you classify as what is Guru devotion and what is being a Dalai Lama extremist when their Guru is Dallai Lama himself.

As quoted from wikipedia, "A guru is seen as the Buddha, the very root of spiritual realization and the basis of the path. Without the teacher, it is asserted, there can be no experience or insight."

Hence, it would be correct to classify the Dalai Lama as their Guru as well. Then what would it take for them to be a Dalai Lama extremist?

What is the difference between a real Guru and a cult leader? What is the difference between someone holding Guru devotion and a cult fanatic? The answer is simple: Objective thinking. Someone who holds Guru devotion will always check the Guru's instructions and try to understand and if they dont, they will raise it to the Guru to clear their doubts. A fanatic on the other hand will never ever question the Guru and just follow.True Guru devotion is not just about following instructions, but also attempting to see the rationale behind it and understand to develop real faith.

[Rinchen]

What is the difference between a real Guru and a cult leader? What is the difference between someone holding Guru devotion and a cult fanatic? The answer is simple: Objective thinking. Someone who holds Guru devotion will always check the Guru's instructions and try to understand and if they dont, they will raise it to the Guru to clear their doubts. A fanatic on the other hand will never ever question the Guru and just follow.True Guru devotion is not just about following instructions, but also attempting to see the rationale behind it and understand to develop real faith.

This is definitely something that many do not know and it is very precious in today's society whereby whenever a guru say something, the student would just follow without having any objects. Many of us now do not know when we should voice out to our Guru, thinking that if we voice out, we are in the wrong and we are disrespecting our Gurus. But it is not the case, when we do that, it would show our Guru that we do think for our actions instead of just following instructions blindly.

[DharmaSpace]

It definitely frees upa lot of time for Je Tsongkjhapa's doctrine to flourish unabated throughout the world.

[Rinchen]

It definitely frees upa lot of time for Je Tsongkjhapa's doctrine to flourish unabated throughout the world.

It definitely will do so with the ban being lifted. Many of the practitioners would not have to think about ways so that they can teach people without having them to think about ways to counter the attacks both mental and physical that targets them. It will definitely be great if the ban is lifted immediately. The Dharma knowledge that can be spread would be so much that it is hard for anything to obstruct the teachings from being conducted anymore!

[Blueupali]

What is the difference between a real Guru and a cult leader? What is the difference between someone holding Guru devotion and a cult fanatic? The answer is simple: Objective thinking. Someone who holds Guru devotion will always check the Guru's instructions and try to understand and if they dont, they will raise it to the Guru to clear their doubts. A fanatic on the other hand will never ever question the Guru and just follow.True Guru devotion is not just about following instructions, but also attempting to see the rationale behind it and understand to develop real faith.

This is definitely something that many do not know and it is very precious in today's society whereby whenever a guru say something, the student would just follow without having any objects. Many of us now do not know when we should voice out to our Guru, thinking that if we voice out, we are in the wrong and we are disrespecting our Gurus. But it is not the case, when we do that, it would show our Guru that we do think for our actions instead of just following instructions blindly.

Dear Ensapa and Rinchen,
  I am so happy that you have posted this; yes, real guru devotion does involve actually telling the guru when we think something is wrong, otherwise we will never develop real understanding; though I agree with Rinchen that I have problems sometimes thinking, well these people are omniscient so they already know this, so seriously why talk to them:)?  Then I remember that in the modern era a lot of Buddhas do not like to show their miracle powers of omniscience; also I think there is some sort of learning mechanism when the student tells the guru something; like all the gurus already understand the nature of mind, but if we are going to understand it then we need to question and clear up doubts, otherwise we will remain confused.
  As for the ban, I am praying very hard for that to be lifted soon, so that we can spread Je Tsonkapa's doctrine more easily; people will calm down and we can travel to holy sites in India without having to hide our main practice from confused fanatics.  Are fanatics ever not confused?  Ah, well....