Dorje Shugden Lamas attending the Tibet Autonomous Region conference

[bonfire]

See:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/dorje-shugden-lamas-attend-the-tibet-autonomous-region-10th-government-committees-first-conference/


The Dorje Shugden lamas have established a relationship of trust with their governement, the governement of China.
Something that the TGIE and CTA have failed to establish.

Both the ethnic Tibetans and the Chinese governement are seeking civil peace, cultural harmony and economical stability in China.
The lamas have been given a part to play in the conference in a dynamic of peace, conciliation and harmony.

Of course the monks do not need nor want to be involved in politics, they only participate in order to serve the country's wellfare on a spiritual level, they are not politicians, and that is one more reason they have been invited and are welcome. They do not mix politics and supra-mundane. They know better than that.

The result is that Buddhism gains, and also Tibetan culture gains within a Chinese context and with the ethnic Han's as compatriots and partners. The only way to gain respect is to give it, the only way to gain dialogue is to give it, the only way to get peace and protection is to give it.

Who will still say now that the practice of Dorje Shugden is harming the Tibetan cause?
This is proof of the opposite!

[Ensapa]

As we have already known and the results have proven, that the only approach with China is to make peace with them and the only way to make peace with them now is through Dorje Shugden. Call him a Chinese spy or whatever, but he shows results. Results that the CTA and their stupid and archaic methods will never achieve no matter what happens. CTA should really stop being so hard headed and look at other ways to get what they want instead of sticking to the same old methods that have been proven to not work at all. Wake up, CTA! And stop spending time on something that has not brought any results for decades!

[vajrastorm]

Yes, the compassionate Tibetan Lamas in the Tibetan Autonomous Region have, through their patient endurance and their single-minded focus on Dharma and to benefit all beings, have won the trust of the Chinese Government. Over 30 of them were invited to the first conference of TAR Government Committee.The most revered Tibetan Lama,Lama Jampa Ngodrup Rinpoche, appointed by the Chinese Government to be the first Tibetan Lama sent abroad to spread the Dharma, was present.

This means that these Shugden Lamas have gained the trust of the Chinese as messengers of peace and, by logical deduction, Dorje Shugden has also gained the trust of the Chinese as the Protector who protects and spreads peace.  The Shugden Lamas' willingness to cooperate with the Chinese government , also shows that they want to go beyond politics. Their concern is for the welfare, both spiritual and temporal, of the Tibetans in the TAR.
 
Their presence at this meeting shows that they are being readily accepted by the Chinese Government as partners in their joint quest for peace, cultural harmony and economic stability.They are still the torch bearers for the peace and  harmony that Lord Buddha taught and established as  cornerstones of Buddhism.

In contrast to these Shugden Lamas'  current active engagement with the Chinese Government for the peace, stability and economic progress of  the Tibetans in TAR(from a position of trust),the TGIE and the CTA have accomplished nothing , but strive and schism within the Tibetan  community with the ban on Shugden.

practice.
 

   

[Big Uncle]

I think this is all very nice that the Dorje Shugden lamas are so welcomed now and the Chinese government is so supportive of them. However, I wonder if this is going to last. Think about it. The only reason the Chinese government is supportive, open and encouraging of Dorje Shugden lama, institutions and so forth is because of the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden. Now, if the ban on Dorje Shugden comes down, would the Chinese government still extend such a welcoming gesture? I just wonder...

On the other hand, when the ban comes down, the Dalai Lama may have already retired completely from all secular and political life. So, there is no reason for the Chinese government to give such preferential treatment. However, as Dorje Shugden practitioners had also proven to be loyal and law-abiding citizens of China, things may be in their favor. I just wonder what it would be like for the ban to really come down... It would be great if those words were uttered by the Dalai Lama himself. But whatever way it goes, I heard that the ban would definitely come down and it seems that things are moving along that direction right now. We are indeed living in the worse(the ban) and the best (the lifting) of our times. 

[WisdomBeing]

Good point, Big Uncle. I do think that the Chinese would continue to be supportive of Dorje Shugden though. After all, their HH Panchen Lama has a huge Dorje Shugden statue in his monastery, Tashi Lhunpo. Also, the Chinese would have developed relationships with the Dorje Shugden lamas, such as HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH 101st Ganden Trisur Rinpoche.

Dorje Shugden practitioners appear to have not created any political upheavals in China. As far as I know, none of the monks who have self-immolated have been Dorje Shugden practitioners. Being very simplistic, the Chinese are basically just interested in two main things - a stable, law-abiding people and economic growth. As long as Dorje Shugden practitioners appear to tow the line, there should be no reason for the Chinese to react against them.

[Ensapa]

Good point, Big Uncle. I do think that the Chinese would continue to be supportive of Dorje Shugden though. After all, their HH Panchen Lama has a huge Dorje Shugden statue in his monastery, Tashi Lhunpo. Also, the Chinese would have developed relationships with the Dorje Shugden lamas, such as HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH 101st Ganden Trisur Rinpoche.

Dorje Shugden practitioners appear to have not created any political upheavals in China. As far as I know, none of the monks who have self-immolated have been Dorje Shugden practitioners. Being very simplistic, the Chinese are basically just interested in two main things - a stable, law-abiding people and economic growth. As long as Dorje Shugden practitioners appear to tow the line, there should be no reason for the Chinese to react against them.

It has always been a Buddhist philosophy for serious practitioners to not get involved in politics, as Pabongkha Rinpoche has underlined in the most recent reiteration of this rule. The Chinese just want peace and unity and if the Dalai Lama's followers are not granting them that, for sure China will not be happy with the Dalai Lama and blame him for the upheavals. So indirectly, the Tibetans and sabotaging themselves and their chances for freedom with their attitude and inability to think further beyond just getting temporal gains or wealth and status. It is about time that they see things further and make the correct decisions.

[bonfire]

The thing is that the massive majority of the Chinese nationals will (are) seeking spiritual answers and by extension a spiritual practice. The governement cares for its people and knows of the growing call for the Chinese to take part of a spiritual tradition.

This tradition will be (is) that of Buddhism, that of Dorje Shugden, this is already set today, it is clear.
This is and will remain the tradition that is the tradition supported by the givernement.
This for two main reasons:

1.
It makes historical sense a various levels.
a. It is the Kadampa tradition embraced by the emperors of China
b. It is a spiritual tradition that is able to embrace the Taoisme and Confusianism
c. It is a tradition that can reconcile all existing Buddhist traditions in China
d. It (Buddhism) is the most succesful tradtion in China now, as it was yesterday

2.
It is the only spiritual tradition (across all religions) of which the Chinese governement trust its predicators, and its lamas.
This fact remains whether the ban is lifted or not, and I dare say that this ban is no more relevant today for that matter, whatever it is that the Dalai Lama had in mind, only the CTA and a few others really care about this ban today.

China does not care about it anymore, I think.
Why? Because there are already many lamas that have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama, that are in China and outside of China, that do not campaign for any independance of Tibet, that do not get involved with politics, that are supporting China and its governement and that do what monks are supposed to do: they work to help others, to work for peace and harmony, they don't value an ethnic Tibetan more than an ethnic Chinese or anyone else for that matter, they don't practice discrimination.
So why would the Chinese governement still be bothered by a ban on Dorje Shugden or a lift of this ban?

The future of lama Tsongkhaa's doctrine is in China.
The teachers that will make headlines after the Dalai Lama passes away will come from China or will be Dorje Shugden lamas outside of China that are friends with China.
After the Dalai Lama passes away, Dharamsala will slowly become a place unknown to the majority of the world.
And the ban will hardly make it into history books, just as it hardly makes it in any large news network today.

Those that work, or worked for the lifting of the ban do see the result today: the ban is already no more than a weak threat, because most of those (ironically not for the Tibetan in exhile themselves - IRONIC!) that are threatened have nothing to fear, and the ones that work to implement the ban operate in a shrinking realm.

So the ban, I think, has become almost irrelevant to the Chinese governement.
My thoughts.

Good point, Big Uncle. I do think that the Chinese would continue to be supportive of Dorje Shugden though. After all, their HH Panchen Lama has a huge Dorje Shugden statue in his monastery, Tashi Lhunpo. Also, the Chinese would have developed relationships with the Dorje Shugden lamas, such as HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH 101st Ganden Trisur Rinpoche.

Dorje Shugden practitioners appear to have not created any political upheavals in China. As far as I know, none of the monks who have self-immolated have been Dorje Shugden practitioners. Being very simplistic, the Chinese are basically just interested in two main things - a stable, law-abiding people and economic growth. As long as Dorje Shugden practitioners appear to tow the line, there should be no reason for the Chinese to react against them.

[samayakeeper]

I think the people in CTA would not want to climb down from their high horses to make friends with their counterpart and have a series of dialogues with them. That would mean losing their pride, the people in CTA, that is. They prefer to hold on to the notion that they are well respected and good representations of their own people. But instead of earning the respect of their people, CTA went on a witch hunt by enforcing the ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden thus losing respect from their people and people of the world.

[Blueupali]

I think this is all very nice that the Dorje Shugden lamas are so welcomed now and the Chinese government is so supportive of them. However, I wonder if this is going to last. Think about it. The only reason the Chinese government is supportive, open and encouraging of Dorje Shugden lama, institutions and so forth is because of the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden. Now, if the ban on Dorje Shugden comes down, would the Chinese government still extend such a welcoming gesture? I just wonder...

On the other hand, when the ban comes down, the Dalai Lama may have already retired completely from all secular and political life. So, there is no reason for the Chinese government to give such preferential treatment. However, as Dorje Shugden practitioners had also proven to be loyal and law-abiding citizens of China, things may be in their favor.

Big Uncle,
  You make a very good point that it is hard to know without basic human rights like free speech and freedom of religion, as well as a functioning democratic society, what the Communist Party will decide to do next.  Unfortunately, their party is about power, and though it is all well and good that they may have noticed that they have nothing to fear from certain subsets of the Tibetan population, that does not mean that the situation is very good for either Tibetans or mainland Chinese regarding basic human rights including speech and religion; I am not saying that those living there can necessarily make much headway under the current regime, but I would not trust the Chinese government; just because they allow for some prayer and meditation is a far cry from freedom of religion.  Their whole government needs to change though, including the mainland.

[Ensapa]

Big Uncle,
  You make a very good point that it is hard to know without basic human rights like free speech and freedom of religion, as well as a functioning democratic society, what the Communist Party will decide to do next.  Unfortunately, their party is about power, and though it is all well and good that they may have noticed that they have nothing to fear from certain subsets of the Tibetan population, that does not mean that the situation is very good for either Tibetans or mainland Chinese regarding basic human rights including speech and religion; I am not saying that those living there can necessarily make much headway under the current regime, but I would not trust the Chinese government; just because they allow for some prayer and meditation is a far cry from freedom of religion.  Their whole government needs to change though, including the mainland.

To look at why China is paranoid about religious freedom, one must first learn on why they are paranoid. As we know, China is made up of many ethnic groups and countries and they have a delicate balance to maintain. One wrong move and China will fall into dissent and there will be a lot of suffering as there will be chaos. China is most afraid of this and they will do anything in their power to prevent this from happening including censoring the internet, banning free speech and controlling and regulating religion. So we cannot blame them. What Buddhism must do is prove that it is a peaceful religion with no political agenda and on that, China will lift the restrictions.

And oh, no more self immolations of monks and nuns or in monasteries.

[Blueupali]

There is really nothing to fear from most religions, not just Buddhism.  While it may not be their fault that they are confused, the Chinese 'fear' of religion is really just stemming from their communist ideology; the Party requires atheism after all. Buddhism has nothing to prove, and neither do most other religions; it is the Chinese government that needs to relax its horrendous human rights policy.

[Ensapa]

There is really nothing to fear from most religions, not just Buddhism.  While it may not be their fault that they are confused, the Chinese 'fear' of religion is really just stemming from their communist ideology; the Party requires atheism after all. Buddhism has nothing to prove, and neither do most other religions; it is the Chinese government that needs to relax its horrendous human rights policy.

There is something to fear from religions. and no it does not stem from communist ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

In case you have not read about this, it was something that happened in China where someone claimed the was the younger brother of Jesus and started a rebellion against the government. It was there and then where China learned the dangers of religion and how it can cause dissent and I am pretty sure they will not allow that to repeat itself. Dont forget about the Taliban as well. See it from a country's perspective and how it can potentially destabilise the nation

[Blueupali]

Quote from Ensapa:

"There is something to fear from religions. and no it does not stem from communist ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

In case you have not read about this, it was something that happened in China where someone claimed the was the younger brother of Jesus and started a rebellion against the government. It was there and then where China learned the dangers of religion and how it can cause dissent and I am pretty sure they will not allow that to repeat itself. Dont forget about the Taliban as well. See it from a country's perspective and how it can potentially destabilise the nation"
[/quote]
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Well, that sounds like an excuse to supress all relgions rather than stopping violence from a violent group.  Communism already did not allow Party members to be members of religions, and yes, they are worried that it divides and causes dissent; in other words free thought and religion might cause people to have courage to speak against oppression.  Human beings are capable of confusion and rebellions on any number of issues, not just religion; the government of China just has very little use for religion because it might detract from whatever the state thinks everyone should do today.  So again, I think yes, of course, humans are capable of change; the crusdaes, for instance, were a dark period in Western history, but if we look at the history of the crusades, we would see that politcs and religion were mixed, and the governments were VERY dictatorial in those days.  It got better slowly, over time.  There is always room to improve humanity, but using an excuse to stymie religion that there are some extremists is not logical.  Of course, if people are causing physical harm to others, that is going too far; most societies have some restrictions on people harming others in the name of religion; it is not legal. 
  I still say all living beings would benefit from freedoms and endowments afforded by democracy.  There is a good book on this subject by Shamar Rinpoche "Tword a Transparent Democracy" which you might find helpful.  Below is a link to a description of the book which contains a link to an e-copy of the book; you know, helping others by having more generosity toward other nations is not a bad concept, but democracy helps all living beings.
  The ban, for instance, is an example of not yet fully embracing a democracy; in the United States, there have been historical incidents of having to work out exactly what constitutes free speech; there was the Sedition Act passed when the US was a very nascent nation, which took awhile to repeal; basically it was illegal to openly criticize the government, but eventually that was repealed; it violated the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.  So, people are not perfect, and no government is either, but all people need basic rights of being able to pray and practice religion freely; keeping the state out of religion is one of the best ways to do this. 
  Here is the link to Shamar Rinpoche's discription of his book on the helpfulness of democracy and some ideas on new ways democracy could evolve:
http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=59&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&cHash=0e3aec22da

An e-copy of the book is availble for 3 us dollars from the site lulu


 

[Ensapa]

Quote from Ensapa:

"There is something to fear from religions. and no it does not stem from communist ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

In case you have not read about this, it was something that happened in China where someone claimed the was the younger brother of Jesus and started a rebellion against the government. It was there and then where China learned the dangers of religion and how it can cause dissent and I am pretty sure they will not allow that to repeat itself. Dont forget about the Taliban as well. See it from a country's perspective and how it can potentially destabilise the nation"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, that sounds like an excuse to supress all relgions rather than stopping violence from a violent group.  Communism already did not allow Party members to be members of religions, and yes, they are worried that it divides and causes dissent; in other words free thought and religion might cause people to have courage to speak against oppression.  Human beings are capable of confusion and rebellions on any number of issues, not just religion; the government of China just has very little use for religion because it might detract from whatever the state thinks everyone should do today.  So again, I think yes, of course, humans are capable of change; the crusdaes, for instance, were a dark period in Western history, but if we look at the history of the crusades, we would see that politcs and religion were mixed, and the governments were VERY dictatorial in those days.  It got better slowly, over time.  There is always room to improve humanity, but using an excuse to stymie religion that there are some extremists is not logical.  Of course, if people are causing physical harm to others, that is going too far; most societies have some restrictions on people harming others in the name of religion; it is not legal. 
  I still say all living beings would benefit from freedoms and endowments afforded by democracy.  There is a good book on this subject by Shamar Rinpoche "Tword a Transparent Democracy" which you might find helpful.  Below is a link to a description of the book which contains a link to an e-copy of the book; you know, helping others by having more generosity toward other nations is not a bad concept, but democracy helps all living beings.
  The ban, for instance, is an example of not yet fully embracing a democracy; in the United States, there have been historical incidents of having to work out exactly what constitutes free speech; there was the Sedition Act passed when the US was a very nascent nation, which took awhile to repeal; basically it was illegal to openly criticize the government, but eventually that was repealed; it violated the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.  So, people are not perfect, and no government is either, but all people need basic rights of being able to pray and practice religion freely; keeping the state out of religion is one of the best ways to do this. 
  Here is the link to Shamar Rinpoche's discription of his book on the helpfulness of democracy and some ideas on new ways democracy could evolve:
http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=59&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&cHash=0e3aec22da

An e-copy of the book is availble for 3 us dollars from the site lulu
[/quote]

What do you think about this article?

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20121213000106&cid=1101

There is a chance that Beijing may soften its longstanding hostility toward the Dalai Lama after Xi Jinping becomes China's president next year, according to professor Lin Chong-pin from Tamkang University in New Taipei.

A former deputy defense minister of Taiwan, Lin told Want China Times that there are three reasons why the administration under Hu Jintao's successor may adopt a more conciliatory position toward the Tibetan government in exile. First, Xi is seen as a leader who pays greater respect to the Buddhist religion than his predecessors and his wife, Peng Liyuan, is a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism. During a seminar held at the Brookings Institution in 2007, Li Xiaolin, the daughter Li Peng, was revealed to be a follower of Tibetan Buddhism as well, according to the bodyguard of the former Chinese premier.

When Master Hsing Yun, the founder of Taiwan's Fo Guang Shan Buddhist order, visited China's then-president Jiang Zemin in 2002, he found out that the leaders of the Communist Party were not as atheist as they are officially required to be. In his memoir, Hsing Yun recalled that Jiang recited Buddhist scripture to him during their meeting. Lin said there are an estimated 300 million Buddhists in China and many senior party leaders have apparently found strength through religious beliefs.

Second, Lin said that the time-honored policy of carrot and stick can no longer help the Chinese government maintain local stability in Tibet and Tibetan-inhabited regions, which have seen dozens of monks and nuns set themselves on fire in the past year in protest over Chinese rule. "It is necessary for Xi to seek a new way for detente between the authorities and local population there," Lin said. "Otherwise, the relationship between Han Chinese and Tibetans will be as bad as between Israelis and Palestinians."

Finally, Lin also noted that Xi's father, Xi Zhongxun, had a good personal relationship with the Dalai Lama before he fled China in 1959. "The Dalai Lama presented a watch to Xi senior in the 1950s," Lin claimed. "Xi [Zhongxun] showed the watch to everyone he met until the late 1980s."

After Xi Jinping has addressed the issues of corruption and economic transformation, the top items on his agenda, Lin said his opportunity to address the longstanding problem of Tibet may arrive. Lin said he had been told by a relative of a senior cadre that Xi Jinping has already sent a special envoy to India to meet with the Tibetan government in exile in Dharamsala.

The Taipei branch of the Tibet Religious Foundation of His Holiness the Dalai Lama said they have no knowledge of such a meeting when approached by Want China Times for comment.

[Blueupali]

What do I think?  I think the problem here is that even if they soften, we are still at the whim of government concerning religion; if they would adopt a democratic government in Tibet and even the mainland, along with basic human rights, then they could keep the idea of equalizing wealth, if that is what they want.
  There is no reason not to let everyone have freedoms to practice their religion freely; that said, I think that until they (China govt) are ready for that, that if I had walked across Tibet into Nepal I would not hasten back to Tibet.  I have been to India and have heard how many people, after walking out of Tibet, had to bribe officials to get across the borders; I am not judging the officials; I am just saying that it was hard to leave, and then when they arrived, of course the Tibetans, as refugees, did not have any jobs, and had to work out some sort of livelihood.   I am sorry that no one has pressured China to let them be free; the US has historically said they want better human rights in China but unfortunately due to politicking and the interests of big companies that want to exploit labor in China, there has been little progress made.  I really feel badly that the greed of humans, both Chinese and Americans, has caused this problem.  That said, I don't feel that any government will ever be perfect until we are all enlightened; I am happy that Dorje Shugden is to help protect the dharma from politics; state and religion do not mix well.  Just as no one should be subject to what the Dalai Lama thinks about their practice, so should they not be subject to any other ruler--- I am really glad Penor Rinpoche was kind enough to ask his followers not to be discriminatory toward the Shugden practioners; since he did that, maybe it is possible for them to stay near his monastery in India more easily.