The Dalai Lama expresses doubt over effectiveness of self-immolations

[Ensapa]

The Dalai Lama should have said this from the beginning, but why only say it now? But in any case, it is a huge welcome compared to his silence or passive support on the self immolations. Next step: STOP or do the pujas for the self immolators in private. Do not encourage this if CTA is really serious in stopping. There is a chance that he is just saying this to look good in front of the Australians, but I highly doubt that.

The Dalai Lama expresses doubt over effectiveness of self-immolations
Phayul[Friday, June 14, 2013 09:32]


His Holiness the Dalai Lama responds to a question from the audience during his talk at the University of Sydney in Sydney, Australia, on June 13, 2013. (Photo/Rusty Stewart/DLIA 2013)

DHARAMSHALA, June 14: Tibetan spiritual leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama has expressed doubts over the effectiveness of the unprecedented wave of self-immolations in Tibet, while calling the fiery protests “very, very sad.”

The Dalai Lama was speaking to reporters in Sydney on Thursday on the first day of his ongoing 11-day Australia visit.

"It's a sad thing that happens. Of course it's very very sad. In the meantime, I express I doubt how much effect (there is) from such drastic actions," Reuters quoted the 77-year-old Tibetan leader as saying.

Since 2009, as many as 119 known Tibetans living under China’s rule have set themselves on fire demanding freedom and the return of the Dalai Lama from exile.

On June 11, a Tibetan nun became the latest to set herself on fire in protest against Chinese occupation in Tawu region of Kham, eastern Tibet. More than 48hrs after her protest, details are still scratchy following a blanket ban on telecommunication services and internet in the region by Chinese authorities.

The Dalai Lama, who relinquished his political authority to the elected Tibetan leadership in 2011, called the immolations a “sensitive political issue” while stressing that Tibetans were not sacrificing their lives because of simple social or family grievances.

"I express this as a symptom of some causes of Chinese officials. They must investigate what is the cause of this symptom, of these events. It's not the solution just to blame someone, including the Dalai Lama," the Tibetan spiritual leader said.

He added that the Tibetans could "easily hurt other people," but instead were choosing "to sacrifice their own lives, not hurting others."

The Chinese government has responded to the self-immolations with even harsher policies, criminalising the fiery protests and sentencing scores of people to heavy prison terms on charges of “intentional homicide” for their alleged roles in self-immolation protests. Chinese officials have barred Tibetans from offering prayers and showing solidarity with families of self-immolators and announced the cancellation of development funds to those villages where self-immolations have taken place.

The exile Tibetan administration has made repeated appeals to Tibetans inside Tibet to refrain from drastic action including self-immolations.

The CTA maintains that the self-immolations “represent a new threshold of Tibetan despair and resentment” and attributes the current crisis in Tibet to China’s policies of “political and religious repression, economic marginalisation, social discrimination, cultural assimilation and environmental destruction in Tibet.”

[Ensapa]

This is the self immolation incident that is in question, again, too much detail for CTA to know unless it was pre planned:

Latest Tibetan self-immolator identified as nun Wangchen Dolma
Phayul[Saturday, June 15, 2013 06:37]
DHARAMSHALA, June 15: The Tibetan nun who set herself on fire in protest against China’s continued occupation of Tibet on June 11 in Tawu region of Kham, eastern Tibet has been identified as 31-year-old Wangchen Dolma.

Although she is believed to have survived her fiery protest, there is no further information on her present condition. She is currently believed to be in a hospital in Dartsedo after Chinese security personnel arrested her from the protest site.

It has also been reported that an unidentified Tibetan man, who tried to rescue Wangchen Dolma, was severely beaten and arrested by Chinese security personnel.

Following a major clampdown by Chinese authorities on all communication channels in the entire Tawu region, sparse details about Tuesday’s protest is trickling out.

Dharamshala based Tibetan language news portal, Tibet Express identified the nun citing sources in exile as well as inside Tibet.

Wangchen Dolma set herself on fire at around 5 pm (local time) on June 11 outside the Nyatso Monastery in Tawu, where thousands of monks from all over Tibet were participating in a major religious gathering.

According to an eyewitness, a Tibetan man tried to put off the flames on Wangchen Dolma’s body, shouting, “if we don’t rescue the nun, she will fall into the hands of the Chinese.”

“Within minutes of the self-immolation protest, Chinese security personnel arrived, extinguished the flames, and bundled the nun away in a police vehicle” the same source said. “The man who tried to save the nun was severely beaten by two Chinese security personnel and later arrested.”

Whereabouts of the unidentified Tibetan man is not known.

Wangchen Dolma’s monastery is located near Dakar Jangchup Choeling, the nunnery to which nun Palden Choetso, who self-immolated on November 3, 2011, belongs.

Wangchen Dolma is a native of Tawu. Further personal details, as well as information on the present situation at her monastery are not available.

Also, a picture currently under circulation, claiming to be of Wangchen Dolma, has not been confirmed by sources.

Since 2009, as many as 119 Tibetans living under China’s rule have set themselves on fire demanding freedom and the return of His Holiness the Dalai Lama from exile.

The Chinese government has responded with even harsher policies, criminalising the self-immolation protests and sentencing scores of people to heavy prison terms on charges of “intentional homicide” for their alleged roles in self-immolation protests. Chinese officials have barred Tibetans from offering prayers and showing solidarity with families of self-immolators and announced the cancellation of development funds to those villages where self-immolations have taken place.

The exile Tibetan administration has repeatedly appealed to Tibetans not to take drastic actions, including self-immolation, while attributing the current crisis in Tibet to China’s policies of “political and religious repression, economic marginalisation, social discrimination, cultural assimilation and environmental destruction in Tibet.”

This week, Tibetan spiritual leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama expressed doubts over the effectiveness of the unprecedented wave of self-immolations while speaking to reporters in Sydney on Thursday.

"It's a sad thing that happens. Of course it's very very sad. In the meantime, I express I doubt how much effect (there is) from such drastic actions," the 77-year-old Tibetan leader was quoted as saying.

[Tenzin Malgyur]

Well well, finally the words are coming out from the holy mouth of the Dalai Lama. His Holiness expressed that the immolations are very very sad. I would say it was very very futile too. All the precious human lifes (most of them monks, and the latest, a nun). Now, the CTA realized besides gaining some publicity and hopefully some sympathies from the worldwide communities, the fiery protests are not getting them anywhere near their intended goals. With this directive from His Holiness, may any future plans to set themselves on fire be diverted to doing something positive and to benefit others.

[Ensapa]

Well well, finally the words are coming out from the holy mouth of the Dalai Lama. His Holiness expressed that the immolations are very very sad. I would say it was very very futile too. All the precious human lifes (most of them monks, and the latest, a nun). Now, the CTA realized besides gaining some publicity and hopefully some sympathies from the worldwide communities, the fiery protests are not getting them anywhere near their intended goals. With this directive from His Holiness, may any future plans to set themselves on fire be diverted to doing something positive and to benefit others.

it's really, really about time that the Dalai Lama spoke up, but that does not change the fact that he erected the statue of the first Tibetan self immolator back in 2008 which inspired more copycat incidents and more Tibetans to think that self immolation is the way. Next step would be the Dalai Lama to demolish that statue to make it very clear that he does not support the self immolations in any way. That would send a very strong statement to everyone that the Dalai Lama does not support the self immolations. The idea that self immolations is a good way was planted by the CTA anyway, so now it is up to them to try and change the people's perception of this, which wont be easy.

[Ensapa]

Dear CTA, doing public prayer services for those who self immolated contradicts your call to end the self immolations. Please make up your mind. Thank you.

CTA holds prayer service for Tibetan self-immolator Wangchen Dolma
Phayul[Tuesday, June 18, 2013 23:45]


Exile Tibetan administration offering a special prayer service for Tibetan self-immolator nun Wangchen Dolma at the Tsug-la Khang in Dharamshala on June 18, 2013. (Phayul photo)

DHARAMSHALA, June 18: A mass prayer service was held today in the exile Tibetan headquarters of Dharamshala in honour of nun Wangchen Dolma, who set herself ablaze in protest against China’s continued occupation of Tibet on June 11.

The prayer service was presided over by Jhador Rinpoche, former abbot of Namgyal Monastery.

Thousands of Tibetans and supporters, including Tibetan Chief Justice Commissioners, Sikyong Dr Lobsang Sangay, Kalons, Parliamentarians, and school students attended the prayer service held at the Tsug-la Khang, the main temple in McLeod Ganj.

Wangchen Dolma, 31, set herself on fire at around 5 pm (local time) on June 11 outside the Nyatso Monastery in Tawu, eastern Tibet, where thousands of monks from all over Tibet had congregated to take part in a major religious gathering.

Chinese security personnel arrived at the protest site and forcibly took Wangchen Dolma to a hospital in Dartsedo.

Three days after her protest, on June 14, Wangchen Dolma succumbed to her injuries.

Chinese authorities secretly cremated her body without informing her family members, as has been the standard practice with other self-immolators.

According to the London-based Free Tibet, authorities’ caused her relatives “additional distress” after they refused to hand over Wangchen Dolma’s remains or ashes so that her family could perform traditional rituals.

“Chinese authorities also prevented local people from visiting the family to pray and show solidarity. The family were ordered to not contact people about Wangchen Dolma’s protest or visit the monastery,” Free Tibet said in a statement Monday.

The exile Tibetan administration said family members of the deceased were kept under house arrest following the self-immolation protest.

Wangchen Dolma was born to Tenzin and Youdon of Gyal Bum Tsang family in Dragthok village in Minyag Drapa region of Tawu. She was enrolled at a Buddhist institute located on Barshab Dragkar, a sacred hill near her village.

Since 2009, as many as 119 Tibetans living under China’s rule have set themselves on fire demanding freedom and the return of His Holiness the Dalai Lama from exile. 102 of the self-immolators have passed away while the condition of more than ten remains unknown.

Addressing the prayer service, Sikyong Dr Sangay spoke about his recent maiden visit to Lithuania and his meetings with parliamentarians, Lithuania’s MEPs, leaders of NGOs, and university students. He added that his visit got positive response from the media as well.

[Blueupali]

He expresses some doubt???
  In addition to the fact that we need our precious human lives to do the Buddhadharma, I would also say that westerners seem to be asking me if burning one-self alive is the normal Buddhist protest method.  (Monks in during the Vietnam era also did this).  So, no, of course not, not unless someone knew by clairvoyance that someone was going to kill them, then I suppose I could understand it.
  Here is what Karmapa said months ago; he is against self-immolation, not because he doesn't empathize with people who have an oppressive situation to deal with, but because he would like them to live, so that they can practice and without resorting to drastic measures:

http://www.karmapa.org/news/announcement_self_immolations.htm

[Ensapa]

He expresses some doubt???
  In addition to the fact that we need our precious human lives to do the Buddhadharma, I would also say that westerners seem to be asking me if burning one-self alive is the normal Buddhist protest method.  (Monks in during the Vietnam era also did this).  So, no, of course not, not unless someone knew by clairvoyance that someone was going to kill them, then I suppose I could understand it.
  Here is what Karmapa said months ago; he is against self-immolation, not because he doesn't empathize with people who have an oppressive situation to deal with, but because he would like them to live, so that they can practice and without resorting to drastic measures:

http://www.karmapa.org/news/announcement_self_immolations.htm

There was only one monk who did this during the Vietnam era and unlike the Tibetan self immolators, he sat still in meditation as the flames consumed his body, a very far cry from the Tibetan ones. There are also self immolators who have survived and regretted their actions so it kind of shows  that they're not really doing it for Tibet. The Karmapa did the right thing when he spoke up against self immolations, but unfortunately unless he attempts to penetrate the Tibetans in China, his words wont have much effects. I do certainly hope that he does as it would benefit a lot more people.

[Blueupali]

Ensapa,
  The self-immolators may think they are doing it for Tibet; of course sometimes people are confused into unhelpful actions. 
  I am sure Karmapa is doing all he can to help all living beings; if there is a way he could better tell people in Tibet he would; however, since these may not be Kagyus, and since they may have difficulty getting internet information, it might be that they would not listen to him, or it might be that they can't get the message. 

[Ensapa]

Ensapa,
  The self-immolators may think they are doing it for Tibet; of course sometimes people are confused into unhelpful actions. 
  I am sure Karmapa is doing all he can to help all living beings; if there is a way he could better tell people in Tibet he would; however, since these may not be Kagyus, and since they may have difficulty getting internet information, it might be that they would not listen to him, or it might be that they can't get the message.

Some of them might be, but I do not think that a majority of them do. They are doing it in hopes of being inducted in the hall of fame of the CTA, as we have discussed in this forum before on the reasons and purposes. There were people who were abbeting these self immolations, and that the CTA/TYC was behind them as their silence and passive behaviours were a dead giveaway that they were behind those incidents and they do not wish to upset the families of the victims because they were the ones who told them to self immolate.

I was saying more along the likes of Thaye Dorje visiting Tibet and doing work there...

[WisdomBeing]

He expresses some doubt???
  In addition to the fact that we need our precious human lives to do the Buddhadharma, I would also say that westerners seem to be asking me if burning one-self alive is the normal Buddhist protest method.  (Monks in during the Vietnam era also did this).  So, no, of course not, not unless someone knew by clairvoyance that someone was going to kill them, then I suppose I could understand it.
  Here is what Karmapa said months ago; he is against self-immolation, not because he doesn't empathize with people who have an oppressive situation to deal with, but because he would like them to live, so that they can practice and without resorting to drastic measures:

http://www.karmapa.org/news/announcement_self_immolations.htm

The Karmapa's advice is absolutely spot on and should have been voiced by HH the Dalai Lama as the spiritual head of Tibet long, long ago. I have read so many articles where the Dalai Lama has claimed that he cannot stop the self-immolators because he says that they make their own decisions. That is such a cop out. The Dalai Lama has managed to institute a ban on the holy practice of Dorje Shugden and caused a whole generation of monks to denounce their practice. The ban has also caused whole monasteries to divide into two. It has caused people to split up, friend turn on friend, family turn on family, just because the Dalai Lama had suddenly declared Dorje Shugden as Buddha non grata.

The Dalai Lama can see how effective his directive is, yet he refused to ask Tibetans to stop self-immolating. Especially as most of the self-immolators were asking for the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet as one of their demands.

Surely more than just i can see the lack of logic in this position the Dalai Lama has taken.

[Ensapa]

The Karmapa's advice is absolutely spot on and should have been voiced by HH the Dalai Lama as the spiritual head of Tibet long, long ago. I have read so many articles where the Dalai Lama has claimed that he cannot stop the self-immolators because he says that they make their own decisions. That is such a cop out. The Dalai Lama has managed to institute a ban on the holy practice of Dorje Shugden and caused a whole generation of monks to denounce their practice. The ban has also caused whole monasteries to divide into two. It has caused people to split up, friend turn on friend, family turn on family, just because the Dalai Lama had suddenly declared Dorje Shugden as Buddha non grata.

The Dalai Lama can see how effective his directive is, yet he refused to ask Tibetans to stop self-immolating. Especially as most of the self-immolators were asking for the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet as one of their demands.

Surely more than just i can see the lack of logic in this position the Dalai Lama has taken.

Perhaps his reluctance in voicing it is because CTA/TYC is behind the self immolations and the Dalai Lama's name was used to help incite the self immolations. It would seem very contradictory if they were to speak up against the self immolations from that angle. So from this behavior, i guess it is safe to say that the CTA/TYC is behind the self immolations based on inference. China has also found proof of this as well and I do not think China would unnecessarily frame CTA. they have better things to do than that.

[vajrastorm]

Yes, one word from HH  Dalai Lama would have stopped any further self-immolation. The Dalai Lama's words are most powerful as can be seen in the enforcing of His ban on Shugden practice. As a result of the ban, Shugden practitioners have been ostracized and subjected to unbelievable atrocities by fanatical anti- Shugdenists and pro-Dalai Lama followers.

The number of self-immolators has risen to 112. They are unfortunately creating a bad image for Buddhists. Westerners seem to be asking if this is a  "normal Buddhist protest  method". As the Dalai Lama himself now says, it is 'doubtful' if  self-immolation is effective in getting the Chinese to accede to their demands for freedom and for the return of the Dalai Lama. On the contrary, the Chinese are now tightening security and withdrawing aid to the villagers of these self-immolators.

Finally, as many if not most self-immolators are monastics, it is such a sad waste of precious human lives, which had been fully devoted to the practice of the Buddhadharma to benefit all beings.

[Ensapa]

Yes, one word from HH  Dalai Lama would have stopped any further self-immolation. The Dalai Lama's words are most powerful as can be seen in the enforcing of His ban on Shugden practice. As a result of the ban, Shugden practitioners have been ostracized and subjected to unbelievable atrocities by fanatical anti- Shugdenists and pro-Dalai Lama followers.

The number of self-immolators has risen to 112. They are unfortunately creating a bad image for Buddhists. Westerners seem to be asking if this is a  "normal Buddhist protest  method". As the Dalai Lama himself now says, it is 'doubtful' if  self-immolation is effective in getting the Chinese to accede to their demands for freedom and for the return of the Dalai Lama. On the contrary, the Chinese are now tightening security and withdrawing aid to the villagers of these self-immolators.

Finally, as many if not most self-immolators are monastics, it is such a sad waste of precious human lives, which had been fully devoted to the practice of the Buddhadharma to benefit all beings.

The westerners seem to accept this as a method for the Tibetans to show their unhappiness with the Tibetan government which is unfortunate and are led to think that the Tibetans are oppressed to such a degree where they have to resort to such measures to make their voices heard. They are also being misled into thinking that this is  a 'peaceful' buddhist method to get the message across when it is not. Whenever a self immolation happens, China's paranoia increases and the chances for China to enter talks into Tibet lessens, and what is more, China is aware that CTA/TYC is behind them.

[Rinchen]

I agree that the words of the Dalai Lama has the most influential  powers. But there would still be some people that would not follow what the Dalai Lama said. Is not because they are against the Dalai Lama, but just that they may not fully agree with him.

I also feel that if these people that choose to self-immolate, should have given their lives to benefit more beings, it would be better. Even after so many people have immolated themselves, but their point are still not being made. No one has given in to their protest.

What for waste such a precious life for such a cause when things are not going the way you plan? Human lives are so precious yet they just immolate themselves to show a point. I think that it is a really bad thing to do.

Just think about how would those non-Buddhist or people who are considering to understand more about Buddhism would think.

[Ensapa]

I agree that the words of the Dalai Lama has the most influential  powers. But there would still be some people that would not follow what the Dalai Lama said. Is not because they are against the Dalai Lama, but just that they may not fully agree with him.

I also feel that if these people that choose to self-immolate, should have given their lives to benefit more beings, it would be better. Even after so many people have immolated themselves, but their point are still not being made. No one has given in to their protest.

What for waste such a precious life for such a cause when things are not going the way you plan? Human lives are so precious yet they just immolate themselves to show a point. I think that it is a really bad thing to do.

Just think about how would those non-Buddhist or people who are considering to understand more about Buddhism would think.

Tibetans will listen to the Dalai Lama, no doubt, but if you tell them that if they self immolate, they will pave one more step for the Dalai Lama to return, they will also gladly immolate themselves for this cause. And I suspect that is what that has been told to the self immolators and their families, which is why if the Dalai Lama suddenly says that self immolations are wrong, it would really cut deep into the their faith in him and also make the Dalai Lama appear as a liar. TYC would most probably have said that, leaving the Dalai Lama to have to deal with the consequences in their wake.