The Dalai Lama expresses doubt over effectiveness of self-immolations

[samayakeeper]

He expresses some doubt???
  In addition to the fact that we need our precious human lives to do the Buddhadharma, I would also say that westerners seem to be asking me if burning one-self alive is the normal Buddhist protest method.  (Monks in during the Vietnam era also did this).  So, no, of course not, not unless someone knew by clairvoyance that someone was going to kill them, then I suppose I could understand it.
  Here is what Karmapa said months ago; he is against self-immolation, not because he doesn't empathize with people who have an oppressive situation to deal with, but because he would like them to live, so that they can practice and without resorting to drastic measures:

http://www.karmapa.org/news/announcement_self_immolations.htm

The Karmapa's advice is absolutely spot on and should have been voiced by HH the Dalai Lama as the spiritual head of Tibet long, long ago. I have read so many articles where the Dalai Lama has claimed that he cannot stop the self-immolators because he says that they make their own decisions. That is such a cop out. The Dalai Lama has managed to institute a ban on the holy practice of Dorje Shugden and caused a whole generation of monks to denounce their practice. The ban has also caused whole monasteries to divide into two. It has caused people to split up, friend turn on friend, family turn on family, just because the Dalai Lama had suddenly declared Dorje Shugden as Buddha non grata.

The Dalai Lama can see how effective his directive is, yet he refused to ask Tibetans to stop self-immolating. Especially as most of the self-immolators were asking for the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet as one of their demands.

Surely more than just i can see the lack of logic in this position the Dalai Lama has taken.

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Absolutely spot on! I agree with you WisdomBeing.


The Dalai Lama has managed to institute a ban on the holy practice of Dorje Shugden and caused a whole generation of monks to denounce their practice. The ban has also caused whole monasteries to divide into two. It has caused people to split up, friend turn on friend, family turn on family, just because the Dalai Lama had suddenly declared Dorje Shugden as Buddha non grata.

The Dalai Lama can see how effective his directive is, yet he refused to ask Tibetans to stop self-immolating. Especially as most of the self-immolators were asking for the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet as one of their demands.

[Ensapa]

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Absolutely spot on! I agree with you WisdomBeing.


The Dalai Lama has managed to institute a ban on the holy practice of Dorje Shugden and caused a whole generation of monks to denounce their practice. The ban has also caused whole monasteries to divide into two. It has caused people to split up, friend turn on friend, family turn on family, just because the Dalai Lama had suddenly declared Dorje Shugden as Buddha non grata.

The Dalai Lama can see how effective his directive is, yet he refused to ask Tibetans to stop self-immolating. Especially as most of the self-immolators were asking for the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet as one of their demands.

The ban on Dorje Shugden does show very clearly the Dalai Lama's power and his influence over the Tibetan Buddhist world. And it also shows clearly that he is more than capable of commanding the Tibetans (and Tibetan Buddhists who are not Tibetans) into doing what he wants them to do. So why is it that he does not want to speak up against the self immolations? obviously, if he did there would be a contradiction of his image to the Tibetans who are aware that his name was used to incite the self immolations. that would be the only logical explanation given the circumstances that surround this mysterious silence.

[Blueupali]

Ensapa,
  The self-immolators may think they are doing it for Tibet; of course sometimes people are confused into unhelpful actions. 
  I am sure Karmapa is doing all he can to help all living beings; if there is a way he could better tell people in Tibet he would; however, since these may not be Kagyus, and since they may have difficulty getting internet information, it might be that they would not listen to him, or it might be that they can't get the message.

Some of them might be, but I do not think that a majority of them do. They are doing it in hopes of being inducted in the hall of fame of the CTA, as we have discussed in this forum before on the reasons and purposes. There were people who were abbeting these self immolations, and that the CTA/TYC was behind them as their silence and passive behaviours were a dead giveaway that they were behind those incidents and they do not wish to upset the families of the victims because they were the ones who told them to self immolate.

I was saying more along the likes of Thaye Dorje visiting Tibet and doing work there...

While I have no idea if Karmapa (Thaye Dorje)'s activity would include a visit to Tibet/China at some point in the future, the fact that the Chinese government officially recognized the Dalai Lama's candidate would present something of a safe-travel concern, I would imagine.  First of all, China has political reasons for wanting Urgen Trinley, the "Karmapa" that China recognized.  Then, the blind Dalai Lama followers also have issues with Karmapa, because the Dalai Lama didn't recognize him, but rather backed the Chinese candidate (Urgen Trinley).  So, as a Kagyu several years ago in India, I would experience Dalai Lama supporters almost spitting on me when they would find out which Karmapa I was with (because they won't let you walk by without asking half the time....).  So as a regular person nearly getting spit on, I have to say I can imagine running into Dalai Lama supporters in China might be problematic for an important religious leader, and also, since China has its own agenda, which doesn't favor the Kagyu Karmapa then I am not sure how he is supposed to go there; that's two sets of people who are very motivated to be problematic.

[Ensapa]

While I have no idea if Karmapa (Thaye Dorje)'s activity would include a visit to Tibet/China at some point in the future, the fact that the Chinese government officially recognized the Dalai Lama's candidate would present something of a safe-travel concern, I would imagine.  First of all, China has political reasons for wanting Urgen Trinley, the "Karmapa" that China recognized.  Then, the blind Dalai Lama followers also have issues with Karmapa, because the Dalai Lama didn't recognize him, but rather backed the Chinese candidate (Urgen Trinley).  So, as a Kagyu several years ago in India, I would experience Dalai Lama supporters almost spitting on me when they would find out which Karmapa I was with (because they won't let you walk by without asking half the time....).  So as a regular person nearly getting spit on, I have to say I can imagine running into Dalai Lama supporters in China might be problematic for an important religious leader, and also, since China has its own agenda, which doesn't favor the Kagyu Karmapa then I am not sure how he is supposed to go there; that's two sets of people who are very motivated to be problematic.

I see, but wouldnt it be that there are still Karmapa's supporters in Tibet that wish for the return of the real karmapa? those would really want Thaye Dorje's presence and guidance as opposed to Orgyen Trinleys. I am sure that there are Kagyus who are aware that Orgyen Trinley may not be the 'real' karmapa, and would yearn for Thaye Dorje instead. I am sure that the Karmapa can brave over politics and people of this sort will not be an obstacle for him and his Dharma works because he IS the Karmapa.

[Rinchen]

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Absolutely spot on! I agree with you WisdomBeing.


The Dalai Lama has managed to institute a ban on the holy practice of Dorje Shugden and caused a whole generation of monks to denounce their practice. The ban has also caused whole monasteries to divide into two. It has caused people to split up, friend turn on friend, family turn on family, just because the Dalai Lama had suddenly declared Dorje Shugden as Buddha non grata.

The Dalai Lama can see how effective his directive is, yet he refused to ask Tibetans to stop self-immolating. Especially as most of the self-immolators were asking for the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet as one of their demands.

The ban on Dorje Shugden does show very clearly the Dalai Lama's power and his influence over the Tibetan Buddhist world. And it also shows clearly that he is more than capable of commanding the Tibetans (and Tibetan Buddhists who are not Tibetans) into doing what he wants them to do. So why is it that he does not want to speak up against the self immolations? obviously, if he did there would be a contradiction of his image to the Tibetans who are aware that his name was used to incite the self immolations. that would be the only logical explanation given the circumstances that surround this mysterious silence.

Personally I think that DL did not say anything prior to that because he did not feel that there will be so many people choosing the path of self-immolation.

As for the puja being conducted after DL's speech, I guess it is a way for the family members of the self-immolaters to feel more in peace. After all. they did lost a family member.

[Ensapa]

Personally I think that DL did not say anything prior to that because he did not feel that there will be so many people choosing the path of self-immolation.

As for the puja being conducted after DL's speech, I guess it is a way for the family members of the self-immolaters to feel more in peace. After all. they did lost a family member.

When he showed his approval to the self immolations by erecting the statue of the first self immolator, he had already set the stage for more people to self immolate.there wasnt much of an excuse for that. He should have known that doing that would set the stage for more self immolations to come. But he did not take down the statue and CTA continues to do pujas for the self immolators. The puja may be for the family members of the self immolation victims, but it also sends a message to other Tibetans that self immolations will make the Dalai Lama happy.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

It's time to do massive Guru Rinpoche pujas, invoke the sublime Guru by his nine-line prayer, mantras should roll off our tongues to the lotus born.

Only Guru Rinpoche can save the day. That is why at the central cathedral right next to HHDL's throne there is a large golden Guru statue.

Get into the beat and start with Guru Rinpoche.
 

[Ensapa]

It's time to do massive Guru Rinpoche pujas, invoke the sublime Guru by his nine-line prayer, mantras should roll off our tongues to the lotus born.

Only Guru Rinpoche can save the day. That is why at the central cathedral right next to HHDL's throne there is a large golden Guru statue.

Get into the beat and start with Guru Rinpoche.
 

But Guru Rinpoche is Tsongkhapa and Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche, but just in different forms. Why is it that we cannot practice just Lama Tsongkhapa since Guru Rinpoche is also Tsongkhapa? I have no problems praying to Guru Rinpoche, but to pray to Guru Rinpoche is Tsongkhapa since Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche, i dont see the hypocrisy of praying to 2 different beings when they are actually one and the same.

As Shakbar has experienced,

There is also the story of the Rime saint Shakbar which reaffirms this fact. Shakbar was very devoted to Guru Rinpoche and did his retreats endlessly. One day, he dreamt of Lama Tsongkhapa transmitting the Lamrim to him. He was disappointed but resumed his practice. On the next day, Guru Rinpoche appeared in his dream. He asked Guru Rinpoche immediately why did he not come earlier and that he missed Guru Rinpoche a lot. Guru Rinpoche replied "My son! I have come to you the other day, in the form of Lama Tsongkhapa. I have never abandoned you! It is just that you fail to recognize me!"

[Rinchen]

I guess it is the same for us to pray to any Buddha. As they are all emanations of another. Like for Dorje Shugden, he is a emanation of Manjushri. So does it mean that if we do prayers for both the Buddhas we are doing something pointless?

It would not be pointless as when we do mantras, we actually purify our speech. And when pujas are being done, it is the same, we are purifying our karma.

[brian]

Definitely Dalai Lama's status as a Tibetan leader will never fade. Although Dalai Lama has officially stepped down as a political figure but who would not obey to the words of Dalai Lama? Even the Kalon Tripa will have to obey, so I feel it is good for Dalai Lama to start pointing out what is beneficial and what is pointless so that no more unnecessary self destruct moves will happen anymore. Definitely for me, self immolation is not effective and it will never be. What benefit has it brought to the freedom of Tibet? Waste life rather than keeping one's life and do something more concrete is certainly a better choice one can make.

[Blueupali]

It's time to do massive Guru Rinpoche pujas, invoke the sublime Guru by his nine-line prayer, mantras should roll off our tongues to the lotus born.

Only Guru Rinpoche can save the day. That is why at the central cathedral right next to HHDL's throne there is a large golden Guru statue.

Get into the beat and start with Guru Rinpoche.
 

Right on Ensapa
  I can never tell Dorje Shugden from Padmasambava or Milarepa, really.  I love all 3 of them. All the Buddhas are all the Buddhas so we just stick to the practices (of whichever particular form of whichever particular Buddha) that works for our helping to attain enlightment for all living beings.
 

But Guru Rinpoche is Tsongkhapa and Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche, but just in different forms. Why is it that we cannot practice just Lama Tsongkhapa since Guru Rinpoche is also Tsongkhapa? I have no problems praying to Guru Rinpoche, but to pray to Guru Rinpoche is Tsongkhapa since Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche, i dont see the hypocrisy of praying to 2 different beings when they are actually one and the same.

As Shakbar has experienced,

There is also the story of the Rime saint Shakbar which reaffirms this fact. Shakbar was very devoted to Guru Rinpoche and did his retreats endlessly. One day, he dreamt of Lama Tsongkhapa transmitting the Lamrim to him. He was disappointed but resumed his practice. On the next day, Guru Rinpoche appeared in his dream. He asked Guru Rinpoche immediately why did he not come earlier and that he missed Guru Rinpoche a lot. Guru Rinpoche replied "My son! I have come to you the other day, in the form of Lama Tsongkhapa. I have never abandoned you! It is just that you fail to recognize me!"

[Ensapa]

Definitely Dalai Lama's status as a Tibetan leader will never fade. Although Dalai Lama has officially stepped down as a political figure but who would not obey to the words of Dalai Lama? Even the Kalon Tripa will have to obey, so I feel it is good for Dalai Lama to start pointing out what is beneficial and what is pointless so that no more unnecessary self destruct moves will happen anymore. Definitely for me, self immolation is not effective and it will never be. What benefit has it brought to the freedom of Tibet? Waste life rather than keeping one's life and do something more concrete is certainly a better choice one can make.

The Dalai Lama is not just a political figure but a spiritual one as well. He is the spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhists as a whole. A spiritual leader has more sway over the people compared to a political one in a sense because while a political leader commands people by means of secular trust, a spiritual leader commands people by means of their faith. The Dalai Lama was both. Although he chooses to withdraw from secular affairs, it does not mean that he does not have power over the people. He still has it and it will not fade away anytime soon. All he has to do is say that self immolations are wrong to stop it.

[Ensapa]

Definitely Dalai Lama's status as a Tibetan leader will never fade. Although Dalai Lama has officially stepped down as a political figure but who would not obey to the words of Dalai Lama? Even the Kalon Tripa will have to obey, so I feel it is good for Dalai Lama to start pointing out what is beneficial and what is pointless so that no more unnecessary self destruct moves will happen anymore. Definitely for me, self immolation is not effective and it will never be. What benefit has it brought to the freedom of Tibet? Waste life rather than keeping one's life and do something more concrete is certainly a better choice one can make.

The Dalai Lama is not just a political figure but a spiritual one as well. He is the spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhists as a whole. A spiritual leader has more sway over the people compared to a political one in a sense because while a political leader commands people by means of secular trust, a spiritual leader commands people by means of their faith. The Dalai Lama was both. Although he chooses to withdraw from secular affairs, it does not mean that he does not have power over the people. He still has it and it will not fade away anytime soon. All he has to do is say that self immolations are wrong to stop it.

[Rinchen]

I agree that HH Dalai Lama would always be a spiritual leader to many around the world and a political leader to many Tibetans. Many would still listen to what DL has said due to their faith and respect for him.

Hence in this case where the DL expresses that he does not support self-immolation and that the CTA is still carrying on with the pujas being done, does anyone else feel that maybe the CTA wants to have hold of all the power and authority of DL and over throw him?

[Ensapa]

I agree that HH Dalai Lama would always be a spiritual leader to many around the world and a political leader to many Tibetans. Many would still listen to what DL has said due to their faith and respect for him.

Hence in this case where the DL expresses that he does not support self-immolation and that the CTA is still carrying on with the pujas being done, does anyone else feel that maybe the CTA wants to have hold of all the power and authority of DL and over throw him?

Nah, I dont believe that the CTA has the courage to overthrow the Dalai Lama. they still very much believe in him, but in the wrong way. They believe that by associating with the Dalai Lama, they can easily hold sway over the Tibetans and their careers as ministers and members of the parliament will be secure. And that they will have a good rebirth if they listened to the Dalai Lama. But that is the only few things on why they listen to the Dalai Lama and not for spiritual reasons. It's all for personal gain and getting influence and power over the Tibetans. Sad isnt it?