Do we have a say in how a sangha should live/travel?

[pgdharma]

We should not judge how these monks traveled. In fact, we should rejoice that there are good sponsors/devotees who respected the monks and wanted to offer the best to them. And what’s wrong with using aviator glasses and having wirelesss headphones. Don’t they deserve to keep up with modern technology?

[Midakpa]

I agree that one shouldn't judge one's guru or any monk for that matter. If we are not at their level to employ skillful means, we should just trust them and regard their actions as pure, i.e. having a pure motivation. The monk in the jet plane could be on a mission for his sponsor or benefactor. He could be in his sponsor's jet plane or the plane could have been chartered because there is urgency and need for privacy. If I were the disciple and am filthy rich, I would also put my guru in first class or in a private jet. 

[Q]

I think it's a little different and sort of controversial when Theravadan monks travel in such a manner... I mean Theravadan practice is more closely related to how the Buddha lived compared to Mahayana or Vajrayana traditions. As much as people wish to say they are similar, the method however, is so different between Theravadan and Vajrayana tradition.

So, do we have the right to say how a sangha should live or travel? Obviously not. We're no where close to being able to hold the vows of a monk, so for tiny people like us, why criticize the Sangha. But people's mouth is such, and people place projections on how a sangha should behave, just like how they place expectations on their spouse, children and family etc.

If the monks was from Vajrayana tradition, I'd say what's wrong with a Lama sitting in a comfortable air plane and using quality things? What's wrong? It was gifted to the Lama/Monks by their devotees, they certainly did not buy it or steal it... so, is it wrong that the monk allow their devotees to practice generosity? Not only generosity is practiced by giving the lama things we ourselves find pleasing... it is also a sign of good Dharma practice AND developing gratitude for one that has benefited us, thus we would like to ensure that the monks are well taken care of. Simple as that.

However, I'm not too sure about the Theravada tradition... perhaps they have other rules that's different from Vajrayana monks... take for example, Theravada monks cannot consume meals past 12 pm, however that rule is not applied to a Vajrayana monk.

In the theravardan tradition, monks are expected to be medicants and extravagance for monks are greatly frowned upon as they are pretty orthodox with the texts, but if we really think about it and why we should offer things up to the monks and how it benefits others and ourselves, then there is really nothing much about monks travelling in high class transport and using high class items. It is only when people are too attached to a certain view that they refuse to budge that creates problems.

What you said is true. Although it is a fact that as lay people we should never criticize the Sangha, those that took ordination vows.... the vows that we ourselves are unable to observe. Unfortunately, people have a habit of running their mouth despite the ill that would do.

Take for example the story of the 6th Dalai Lama, when His great actions resulted in the death of His companion and along with her, the Heir of Tibet. It is due to people's false perception and constricted views of how a monk should be that has often brought them to their downfall... if the Heir to Tibet would have lived, Tibet will have a monarchy system and Tibet would be very different from what it is today.

However, thankfully all these great masters, despite being enlightened, inorder to protect the minds of small people like us, that set projections on how Sangha should be... the methods of which these great masters can us is somewhat limited according to the karma and merits of the receiver... It's so unfortunate that our demerit would actually cause us to see imperfections in Sangha members... =(

[Tammy]

I believe strongly in living a moderate life. Anyone who waste resources for their own selfish enjoyment, should think what could the resources be channelled to help many others who are living under poverty line.

Those students who are giving the best to their lamas, I respect your decision, but also urge you to consider spreading the resources so that more could benefit from your generosity

[fruven]

Is it culturally accepted for Thai's lay people to have a say in the sangha? Is it part of what traditional believe in as Buddhism has developed over the centuries into their culture?

The Theravada Buddhism has flourished in Thailand because it suits the culture of people living there. Thailand's national religion is Buddhism. Definitely Buddhism has benefited the people there a lot. It was effective from the past. We are in a degenerating age, more so now than in the past.

[Ensapa]

Here's what the rest of the world thinks about this issue:

Worldly Buddhist monks rile Thailand’s faithful
Vishal Arora | Jun 28, 2013 |

(RNS) About a week after a video of Buddhist monks riding a private jet went viral on YouTube, pictures of monks checking out iPhones and sipping Starbucks coffee in the United States are making waves in Buddhist-majority Thailand.

While Buddhist clergy are supposed to shun the worldly life, the latest pictures show monks looking at phones and tablets at an Apple store, posing at a Universal theme park, dining at a steakhouse and sipping Starbucks coffee in the U.S.


 Show caption

Thai buddhist temple photo by Vishal Arora.
 This image available for Web and print publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

The pictures come after a video clip showed three monks — one of them carrying a Louis Vuitton bag — aboard a private jet, flying to France to give Buddhist lessons.

Thailand’s National Office of Buddhism, which is mandated to maintain and promote Buddhist affairs, has received numerous complaints. The office has publicly condemned the worldly indulgence of monks as “indecent,” but without following it up with action, as their conduct did not constitute “serious offenses.”

Office Director Nopparat Benjawattananan said the monks did not breach monastic rules by flying on a private jet, since it was donated to them, according to the Bangkok Post.

One of the monks on the jet has been identified as Luang Pu Nenkham Chattigo, the 34-year-old abbot of a temple in Kanthararom district of northeastern Sisaket Province.

Sanitsuda Ekachai, an assistant editor at the paper, criticized the office for its reluctance to discipline influential monks. “What else can it say when all powerful monks live this way?” she wrote.

Meanwhile, a group of Thai activists has lodged a complaint with the Anti-Money Laundering Office to probe the assets of Chattigo and his close associates.

Another monk, popularly known as Luang Phi Namfon from the Nakhon Pathom Province, is being investigated by the Ministry of Justice for owning luxury cars.

Bangkok-based National Institute of Development Administration conducted a survey on “monks and materialism” this week.

More than 90 percent of the 1,249 Buddhist respondents said it was inappropriate for monks to travel in luxury vehicles or have personal belongings.

The survey also found that about 47 percent believe fewer people are visiting Buddhist temples due to the monks’ lavish indulgence, and another 30 percent believe temples have become too commercialized.

About 95 percent of Thailand’s 66 million people are Buddhist.

[WisdomBeing]

All i can say on this is that if we are still in samsara, monk or nun or layperson, we are still subject to karma. Therefore, if it is 'bad' for the monks to be living 'luxurious' lives, then they will receive the karma for it. Let's not judge them because what the hell do we know. We do not know their motivation, so let us just respect the sangha for what they represent - the dharma community. They hold vows that we (lay people) don't. They must get their sponsorship of whatever lifestyle they have from somewhere and if their sponsors trust the monks, then we should respect their choice. If the sponsors don't like it that the monks are traveling by private jet, i am sure the monks would have no private jet to travel in soon enough!

[Ensapa]

All i can say on this is that if we are still in samsara, monk or nun or layperson, we are still subject to karma. Therefore, if it is 'bad' for the monks to be living 'luxurious' lives, then they will receive the karma for it. Let's not judge them because what the hell do we know. We do not know their motivation, so let us just respect the sangha for what they represent - the dharma community. They hold vows that we (lay people) don't. They must get their sponsorship of whatever lifestyle they have from somewhere and if their sponsors trust the monks, then we should respect their choice. If the sponsors don't like it that the monks are traveling by private jet, i am sure the monks would have no private jet to travel in soon enough!

Yeah I do believe that what you have mentioned here makes sense. If the monks were wrong in using the luxury goods, then there will be karmic repercussions and it is not up to what the public says. But yet, it does not prevent social repercussions from people who cannot see what is really going on. The backlash is something that i doubt, anyone can handle or expect at this point of time, but one thing that the Buddhist authorities of Thailand should do is that they should remind everyone to not criticise.

[Ensapa]

here's the latest update on the monks involved:

Buddhist monk filmed enjoying high-life on private jet has assets frozen amid claims of 'financial irregularities'

The footage of Luang Pu Nenkham Chattigo went viral last month along with images of monks looking at iPhones and drinking Starbucks coffe

An extravagant Buddhist monk, who was filmed enjoying the high-life on board a private jet, has had his assets frozen after a group of activists lodged a complaint with Thailand's Anti-Money Laundering (Amlo) Office.

The footage of Luang Pu Nenkham Chattigo went viral last month along with images of monks looking at iPhones and drinking Starbucks coffee.

The pictures and the video are dramatically at odds with the perception that Buddhist clergy shun worldly living in order to attain spiritual enlightenment.

According to reports, Thailand’s National Office of Buddhism, which is charged with promoting Buddhist affairs, has received a number of complaints about the images and the video.

Last week they condemned the images as "indecent" but said they did not constitute “serious offences” or breach monastic rules.

The most high-profile of the monks, Luang Pu Nenkham Chattigo, 34, has since been accused in media reports of having sexual relationships with at least eight women as well as fathering two children.

According to accusations carried in the Bangkok Post the controversial monk also has numerous "financial irregularities" including 16 bank accounts shared between him and his aides, ten of which have more than 200 million baht (over £4m)  in constant circulation.

The Anti-Money Laundering Office (Amlo) revealed details of the alleged financial 'discrepancies' on Tuesday and banned the monk and his associates from transferring any of their assets until they have investigated further.

The deputy secretary-general of Amlo Captain Suwanee Sawaengphol quoted in the Bangkok Post said: "I want to warn the Luang Pu Nenkham network and Luang Pu himself that they can't move assets in the bank accounts because doing so will immediately fall into the category of money-laundering."

In Thailand money-laundering can be punished by a prison sentence of up to 10 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/buddhist-monk-filmed-enjoying-highlife-on-private-jet-has-assets-frozen-amid-claims-of-financial-irregularities-8687331.html

[Ensapa]

And there's more...it just gets worse from here

Private jet-flying Buddhist monk 'a fake'
The controversial Buddhist monk whose flamboyant, jet-set lifestyle has sparked outrage in Thailand, is married and has been accused of being a fake.

The monk has been attracted attention ever since the video of him flying a private jet went viral  Photo: YouTube
By David Eimer, Bangkok11:18AM BST 06 Jul 2013

Luang Pu Nenkham Chattigo has attracted attention ever since a video of him flying on a private jet, while wearing aviator sunglasses and carrying a Louis Vuitton bag went viral.

Buddhist monks are supposed to stay celibate. However the 34-year-old abbot of the Khantitham Forest Monastery is apparently married to a woman named Yupinpraethong Janthawa, and has allegedly had relationships with seven other women, according to Thailand's Department of Special Investigations (DSI).

On Friday, the abbot was accused of being a fake monk and of committing fraud by wearing monk's robes he is not entitled to. Posing and dressing as a monk is a criminal offence in Thailand.

The complaint was filed at Bangkok's Criminal Court by Luang Pu Buddha Isara, the abbot of another monastery.
The cleric is now the subject of a joint investigation by the DSI and the Office of National Buddhism, which oversees Thailand's 200,000 monks.

He is also at the centre of a money-laundering investigation.

Police Colonel Pong-in Intarakhao claim the abbot and his associates had 41 bank accounts, mostly in his name, and that he is believed to own two houses and 13 cars and motorbikes. Much of the cash in the accounts is believed to have come from public donations to his monastery in the northeastern province of Si Saket.

While scandals involving monks taking drugs, gambling and driving around in expensive cars are not uncommon, the extent of Luang Pu Nenkham's alleged misdeeds has shocked Thailand, which has the world's largest Buddhist population.

The abbot, who claims to have walked on water, is believed to be travelling in Europe.

Nopparat Benjawatananun, the director-general of the Office of National Buddhism, warned that he must return to Thailand within the month to answer the mounting list of charges against him.

"Failure to do so would mean he accepts the accusations and harsh action will be taken against him," said Mr Nopparat.

[Q]

@Ensapa

I just read the same news you posted too.

Here's a reference for others to view the actual article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/10163889/Private-jet-flying-Buddhist-monk-a-fake.html

I am not surprised if the monk is 'fake'... I have heard many stories from my friends about being careful of certain monks as they may be fraud, in fact, I was always advised to go directly to the temples if I ever wanted to make a donation as that is a safer route of making sure your funds end up where it should be.

However, if I do see any Sangha in the street I would still pay deep respects to them... no point risking it especially if they are real Sangha.

What I'm more concerned about this issue is why would someone wish to defame Buddhist monks in such a way and create schism as well as controversy? This, I am more skeptical about.

[Q]

Guess what, more news about this scandalous monk... Now Thai authorities are hunting him down and more deep dark secrets are dug out.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/thailand-hunts-fugitive-jet-setting-monk-article-1.1402055?

It's sad to see how Buddhism has degenerated... Makes me feel lucky to be able to learn Buddhism from a pure undiluted lineage.

[RedLantern]

Buddha's teachings was to take the middle path.Since the world has changed drastically in the past 2,500 years ,the "middle path" will look very different today.Back in those days in India,it wasn't hard to give up worldly possessions because people didn't have much to begin with.That's an extreme position today.
Do not be so quick to,look at the message and not the messenger.As long as the monks are pure of mind and body,who are we to judge? The role of monastic orders in India and Western society has to some extent been adapted over the years in accordance with the ever changing social structures.

[Ensapa]

@Ensapa

I just read the same news you posted too.

Here's a reference for others to view the actual article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/10163889/Private-jet-flying-Buddhist-monk-a-fake.html

I am not surprised if the monk is 'fake'... I have heard many stories from my friends about being careful of certain monks as they may be fraud, in fact, I was always advised to go directly to the temples if I ever wanted to make a donation as that is a safer route of making sure your funds end up where it should be.

However, if I do see any Sangha in the street I would still pay deep respects to them... no point risking it especially if they are real Sangha.

What I'm more concerned about this issue is why would someone wish to defame Buddhist monks in such a way and create schism as well as controversy? This, I am more skeptical about.

In myanmar, there has been reports of the myanmar government putting in thugs as monks in temples in order to dilute the faith of the people in Buddhism as Buddhism has been their main religion for thousands of years. So I am not surprised if someone planted this fake monk to do the same. Thailand may be a Buddhist country, but they believe that their king is an emanation of Indra so they are more inclined to Hinduism than we think. It is completely possible that the monk was planted to do this by wealthy non Buddhists who are jealous.

[Rihanna]

Why should how a Sangha should live and travel even becomes a topic of debate?!?!

We are perhaps fixed in our perception that a Sangha should live a very plain and simple life. For me, I would think it is more beneficial if by traveling in a first class cabin, the Sangha is comfortable (which is an offering by His devotees) and makes His life less difficult so that the Sangha can benefit more people, quicker and faster. Why should a Sangha have to endure the hassle of traveling in cheaper mode of transport or living in a dangerous alley with minimal support system? It slows down his ‘work’ in reaching out to the sentient beings.