(3) Is the practice of Dorje Shugden hostile to the Dalai Lama's government?

[Dharmapal]

Brief abstract concerning HH's the Dalai Lama's advice regarding the practice of Dolgyal (Shugden)
Issued by the Office of Tibet, Tibet House, 1 Culworth Street, London NW8 7AF, May 2008

[On this thread is given the Dalai Lama's third main reason given to the Western public recently outlining why "after careful investigation and due thought, he discourages the worship of Dolgyal (Shugden spirit)." This was handed out to those attending the Dalai Lama's events in London and Nottingham.
Please read this and the subsequent arguments against his view.]

3. History shows, and HH's investigations have confirmed, that this spirit is hostile to the Dalai Lama's government and has been since it was founded by the 5th Dalai Lama. Especially now that Tibetans are facing a struggle for survival, it is a mistake to worship something that is hostile to the Dalai Lama's government. Therefore, it is in the interest of Tibetans as a whole to refrain from propitiating this hostile spirit.

[Heartspoon]

"His Holiness the Dalai Lama consulted Palden Lhamo by means of divination and other methods to discover whether the propitiation of Shugden could be continued or should be prohibited."

Actually, HH the Dalai Lama consulted the State Oracle:

1rst answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)"

2nd answer of the State Oracle:

"the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group"

3rd answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to the others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama."

4rth answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen"

5th answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government."

6th answer of the State Oracle:

"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master."

7th answer of the State Oracle:

"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Choe Kyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government."


When HH the 14th Dalai Lama presented his "proofs" to HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, his Tutor answered:

"Palden Lhamo would not lie to You"

[basically]

Heartspoon

Your post is a true gem!  By the time I got to the 6th reply of Nechung I was laughing out loud!  How can anybody take this stuff seriously?!  Truly it is a (tragic) joke!  If Nechung were a minister in the UK govt. cabinet he would have been out of a job after the 3rd!!!

I wonder if the WSS is considering using something like this to refute the recent DL nonsense in a new version of the "Tibetan Situation Today" booklet handed out at demonstrations?

Also it would be good to put in Trijang's 3 reasons to prove TDGyaltsen is Dharmapala Dorje Shugden -- 

......maybe, on reflection these reasons are too much for journalists and the general public. 

The human rights abuses are the most easily digested and understood by the proverbial "man in the street"...

[a friend]

Excuse me,

It's not Nechung.
It's the human oracle.

We have to be very careful in our wording, these Dharmapalas are not fighting among each other.
Nechung is the one who implored in three different life times --starting at the time of Lord Tsongkapa-- to previous human manifestations to rise as a Protector of the Ganden teachings:
Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen
Panchen Sonam Drakpa
Trulku Drakpa Gyeltsen

You don't imagine the divine Palden Lhamo being an enemy of the Protector, do you?

So let's talk about the human oracle of this or that Dharmapala at a given moment giving bad advice, either because it was a false transe, or because he/she was possessed by a malevolent being wishing to sow disunion.

Read Helmut Gassner and don't forget that the Dalai Lama easily allows his mind to be influenced.

[a friend]

Is the practice of Dorje Shugden hostile to the Dalai Lama's government?

NO, NOT IN THE OPINION OF THE 13TH DALAI LAMA.


From a biography sketch of Domo Geshe Rinpoche by Ursula Bernis

First Point - It used to be well known among Gelugpas the high esteem that the Thirteenth Dalai Lama had for the famous Mahasiddha of the Himalayas, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, whose original monastery in Domo or Tromo, or Chumbi Valley, is called Dungkar Gonpa.

When His Holiness the Thirteen Dalai Lama returned from India in 1912, he stopped in Tromo. A meeting took place between His Holiness and Domo Geshe Rinpoche at Kangyur Lhakan in Galinkang. It is said that His Holiness mentioned to his attendants that he expected a very special visitor one afternoon. Domo Geshe Rinpoche, who always looked like a simple monk, had prepared special delicacies to offer to His Holiness. He spent a long time in private talks with him that afternoon. In the evening, His Holiness asked his attendants if they had seen the very special person who had visited him in the afternoon. Surprised, they said they had only seen a simple monk in dirty, tattered robes. His Holiness replied, "That is too bad. I saw Je Tsong Khapa himself."


Second Point-The Dunkgar Gonpa oracle was considered the greatest of all Tibet. It was an oracle for the King Protector. The Thirteen Dalai Lama followed his advice to avert a disaster.

...
The great oracle at Dungkar Gonpa ... was very famous...
Several British and other travelers who explored Tibet in the early part of this century described the great Dungkar Gonpa oracle's activity and fame as well. In 1924 one of the English explorers reported that the oracle in Chumbi Valley, as the British called Tromo, was the greatest in Tibet at the time...

   Another well-known moment of the Dungkar Gonpa oracle was in 1922 when the King Protector came spontaneously and informed (Domo) Geshe Rinpoche that there was some danger of aggression towards Tibet from Japan's invasion of a neighboring country. The Japanese armies were then in Siberia after having defeated the Russians. Japan was at the height of its aggressive expansionism, which, however, declined soon after, upon threats from the United States and when an earthquake devastated Tokyo in 1923. The Protector had advised renovating two stupas. When His Holiness the Thirteenth Dalai Lama received the message, he immediately renovated the great golden stupa at Ganden and also the Potala Palace -considered to be a stupa, filled as it was with holy objects- and praised Domo Geshe Rinpoche for having helped avert a possible national crisis.

Third Point-Is it reasonable to think that the Thirteenth Dalai Lama respected Domo Geshe Rinpoche as Tsong Khapa himself, visited Tromo, and followed the advice from King Dorje Shugden's oracle at Tromo, knowing that the Protector was hostile to the Dalai Lama's government?
To think such thing would be utter nonsense. Now, to tell such thing, as if people were devoid of memory and intelligence shows the intent of deceiving the general public, that does not have access to true information. 

[basically]

Dear af

Thank you once again for correcting me about something   you said "It's not Nechung" ...yes, the words spoken by oracles may not be from the deity.  Maybe when the 13th DL banned all oracles for a while he was being helpful....

[a friend]

Basically, all our great Lamas adviced to be very careful with oracles, most of them are not to be trusted.
Only accomplished Masters know who is coming through the oracle.

The oracles per se do not matter, because if they are in true trance they are 100% unconcious, their mind does not matter, there are certain characteristics of their bodies that make them apt to let other beings in, and they have to be trained by the beings for instance to even talk. I've seen transes where the oracle was young (young as oracle) and the poor deities could not yet use his throat, so the questions had to be only by yes or no; then with time the situation would improve and the oracle's throat became more apt, and the deities were able to talk some, until the oracle became very fit. But the mind of the human oracle didn't have the slightest participation, it doesn't matter his Dharma realizations, they can be totally immature beings, what matters is their special karma that makes them physically apt to become oracles.

Then, we are talking about true trances --because you can have human oracles faking trances, although it's not so easy to do it in front of people who know about trances-- so what is important is that a really great Lama is there to determine that the deity or being that comes trough the trance is who he/she says it is. Even the presence of monks does not guarantee that. It has to be a realized Lama, and one who has this particular expertise that not necessarily everybody has, believe me.

[basically]

Hi AF

Yes, I believe you..I was at a number of the invocations of Gyalchen that were done by Choyang Duldzin Kuten.  For a westerner like me it was a very spooky experience. Certainly the use of oracles is alien to my culture so maybe better to remain with the pure Dharma teachings alone.  That's my own view nowadays.

Advice I received through the oracle never contradicted Dharma.  On the other hand the replies were never specific either.  And in a way relying on oracles seems to undermine the function of reliance on our spirtiual guide.  Just some idle thoughts.....

[a friend]

I couldn't agree more.
One should request that something be asked from an oracle in trance only when a very serious matter that cannot be solved properly otherwise comes up. And only if the oracle is handed by a Lama that has the proper qualifications to do that.
Of course nowadays people do what pleases their mind and the great ones are mostly gone from this world so ...

[Rinchen]

It is just ridiculous that that the Dalai Lama can be harmed. It makes no sense how by people worshipping a deity will cause harm to what is going on in the Tibetan authorities. If Dorje Shugden is really that powerful to do this, why is it that only now during these few years that there is a necessity to stop the practice?

How is it possible for the accumulative karma of the people that are leading the Tibetans be disregarded when Dorje Shugden is enlightened. It is just impossible for what Dalai Lama has said as it is Dorje Shugden that has helped Dalai Lama to flee to India.

[Tenzin Malgyur]

History shows, and HH's investigations have confirmed, that this spirit is hostile to the Dalai Lama's government and has been since it was founded by the 5th Dalai Lama. Especially now that Tibetans are facing a struggle for survival, it is a mistake to worship something that is hostile to the Dalai Lama's government. Therefore, it is in the interest of Tibetans as a whole to refrain from propitiating this hostile spirit.


How is it that Dorje Shugden is hostile to the Dalai Lama's government? By advising the Dalai Lama to flee Tibet moments before Dalai Lama's palace was shelled by the Chinese army and guiding the entourage on the safest route to take? It is not logical at all. What about other nationals that propitiate Shugden? Would it harm their government as well?

The excuses given by the Tibetan government does not make any sense and the Tibetans have realized that their Government have not been capable of fulfilling the promises made. What a convenient way to put the blame for their failure on Dorje Shugden.

[grandmapele]

This posted was started 8 years ago. The politicians have made this a political issue interspersed with spiritual issue all for their own ends. They need a scapegoat to distract the exiled Tibetan's attention as well as enriching themselves while the eye are looking elsewhere.

It has become a very secular issue. Hopefully the Dalai Lama will have a change of heart when he can get away from his aides to see for himself the suffering that has been inflicted due to the ban. Guess, i love my rose tinted glasses.

[SabS]

That is just so flimsy and baseless. If the 5th Dalai Lama had been against the practice of Lord Dorje Shugden then he wouldn't have built Trode Khangsar Chapel, commissioned a Dorje Shugden statue and wrote praise as offerings to Lord Dorje Shugden. And if Dorje Shugden was hostile to the Tibetan government then he wouldn't had advised the 14th Dalai Lama to leave Tibet and protect him all the way into the safety of India. He even wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden after bearing witness to the accuracy of divination by Shugden Oracle, the 6th Panglung Kuten. After trusting and propitiating this enlightened Protector for half his life, the Dalai Lama suddenly proclaim him to be a "spirit" on baseless reasons? Isn't it fishy? What is the Dalai Lama's real reason?

[Celia]

At least now we see some interesting development with the recent video of the Dalai Lama saying that Dorje Shugden cannot harm him. So, basically after close to 20 years of CTA using this as one of the main basis to persecute Dorje Shugden practitioners, the Dalai Lama has now taken that justification out of the equation by effectively negating such claim (of Dorje Shugden harming his life). May this be the good start to the end of segregation & discrimination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-f8GpxvfUA

TRANSLATION:

"God is harming! Naga is harming!

For example, Gyalpo Shugden. I have put him [Dorje Shugden] in a position where he is a recipient of my compassion. Besides, I do not nor have I ever had any feeling that Gyalpo Shugden will harm me. Do you understand?

No matter how pitiful or wretched we are, however if we practise the Bodhicitta, love and compassion, no god or ghost can harm us.

In fact, if one were an honest to goodness protector on the side of virtue then it would not matter. The ones who have attained the ten stages of saintly perfection ( / sa bcu) like Palden Lhamo and Gonpo [Mahakala] who are almighty… "

[Then the Dalai Lama turns and addresses someone else about an irrelevant topic] [So if the Dalai Lama cannot be harmed by Shugden and not one can be harmed by Shugden especially if they practice love and compassion, then why is there 20 years of so much literature, speeches, talks, videos against Dorje Shugden? In the beginning the Dalai Lama said Shugden is a danger to his long life and Tibet's fight for freedom. Shugden harms the Dalai Lama and harms Tibet. By worshiping Shugden you hurt the Dalai Lama's life and endanger the cause of Tibet's freedom. Now this year the Dalai Lama is saying the exact opposite. So why persecute Dorje Shugden and his followers then all these years? Why have the ban? Wouldn't it have been better if nothing was said against Dorje Shugden in the first place and all harmony and unity was kept intact?]

[SabS]

Oh wow! Thank you Celia for sharing the latest information on the Dalai Lama's declaration. Finally he has spoken up about the truth that Dorje Shugden is not harmful to his life nor to the Tibetan Freedom cause. And more importantly, instead of using "Dolgyal", he now uses "Gyalpo" Shugden meaning King Shugden. It is a sign of respect accorded to Dorje Shugden. May the ban swiftly move towards being lifted to reunite the Tibetan Buddhist practitioners and stop all those senseless persecution and sufferings of the Shugden practitioners.

This important message need to reach the members of CTA to stop their continued harmful actions. Penpa Tsering, one of the frontrunner in the recent election (lost to Lobsang Sangay) said he will carry on the hate actions to USA (a country which personifies Freedom and equality for all), to teach children to hate Shugden practitioners. He is going beyond the norm into the actions similar to "White Supremacy" ideals, brainwashing the young against Shugden practitioners. Going into extremes due to his ignorance in thinking he will get into the good books of the Dalai Lama and his followers to win maybe the next elections. Won't he be shocked to learn of the Dalai Lama's recent message. Would love to see how he recant his intended actions. I would love to say "Stupid Guy" but instead I will ask Lord Dorje Shugden to bless him with true wisdom and compassion. Om Benza Wiki Bitana Soha.