FPMT ordination requirements -- make sure you are NOT a Shugden practitioner!

[Dharmapal]

http://www.imisangha.org/ordain/requesting.html

(This is even more ironic and tragic given that about 70% of their lineage Gurus were Dorje Shugden practitioners (http://www.fpmt.org/teachers/lineage_lamas.asp). Where is their lineage now? It seems to start and end with the Dalai Lama (who is, interestingly, put above all the other great Lamas on the lineage Guru page). The Dalai Lama is clearly destroying the spiritual lineage not only of Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners but Westerners too.)

Students considering ordination should also:

    * have had Buddhist refuge for at least five years,
    * have lived with lay vows for at least three years,
    * NOT be a Shugden practitioner,
    * be at least 20 years of age,
    * ideally have permission from their family,
    * be free of any encumbering relationships; if married, the candidate will have permission from their partner and be living separately,
    * be free of any encumbering financial obligations,
    * not be returning to their ordinary work situation; working in a Dharma center is permissible,
    * have held the getsul ordination for at least three years if requesting gelong ordination.

[Dharmapal]

Do you think it is worth lots of us asking them why they see no contradiction between this stipulation for ordination of NOT being a Shugden practitioner and the presence of so many Shugden practitioners on the lineage Lamas page? I have just sent an email via the FPMT website to ask them. Perhaps our questions would go nowhere, but is it worth a try?

[wisdombuddha]

If you have more references like these please add them to this thread. They are solid evidence that there is a ban on the practice and it is being strictly enforced. The more evidence we have to show people this discrimination, the better.

It would be nice to have a contact in India who give give us media of the events taking place there. For example, pictures of the burnt down the house and hotel of Tenzing Choegyal in New Delhi. Also videos of the families and monks who have been outcast. We need more recent evidence similar to the Swiss documentary.

[Mooch]

What is/are getsul and gelong?

[a friend]

Getsuls are the ones who took some type of small preliminary vows (most of the time they are just kids)
and Gelongs are fully ordained monks.

Gelongs are the "true" monks.

[jeff Ryan]

Getsul is a novice monk 37 vows I think. Yes they are monks. Gelong is fully ordained bikshu ( monk ) 357 vows i think. Many monks choose not to take Gelong vows. But they are monk for sure. There is also a set of vows lower than getsul that allows one to wear robes though i forget the name. It has the 5 lay vows plus no sexual contact.

[emptymountains]

There is also a set of vows lower than getsul that allows one to wear robes though i forget the name. It has the 5 lay vows plus no sexual contact.

I believe it is Rabjung (Tib.), which means "renunciate." I was looking for the Sanskrit equivalent to this, but apparently it is peculiar to Tibetan tradition and does not appear in the Vinaya.

As an aside, because it has come up a number of times recently ("fake monks and nuns," etc.), anyone wishing to understand NKT ordination can go to http://www.dharmaprotector.org/ordination.html. They have Rabjung, Gestul, and Gelong too, but in the NKT these terms reflect different levels of actually realizing renunciation, not different numbers of vows taken.

[jeff Ryan]

yep Rabjung. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

[whitelion]

Well, this is quite interesting. A Shugden practitioner is not allow to take ordination vows. Well I thought the monk or nun vows was created from Lord Buddha time, and none of the Buddha/sutra/tantra mentioned Shugden practitioner is not allow to be obtain as a sangha.

Come on, if one really have faith and understand the dharma and we know if we follow hundred percent of Buddha teaching and practice, nothing can harm us. Remember when Lord Buddha facing his last challenge by the mara, nothing can harm the Buddha.

If DS is really a demon or evil spirit do you think he will be able to harm us? (If we really hold our samaya and practicing the authentic Dharma) A lot of people out there worried that DS will bought them harm or bad luck, but if one is a pure Dharma practitioner what are you worried about ?

Not a lot of people have the merit to be ordain but if they don't even get the chance to be a sangha just because he/she might received DS practice before, I think it's quite unreasonable. Or FPMT only accept a person who let go of DS practice and broke their samaya with their lineage lama to be ordain.  This sounds funny to me.

If DS is really a demon (of course DS is not), with the power of the 3 Jewels should be able to subdue him or vanish him, why is DS lineage still growing?

Well, we can see clearly a lot of people just follow blindly from what they heard, they do not really think about it. What do you think ??

[WisdomBeing]

I took at look at the link (http://www.imisangha.org/ordain/requesting.html) in the original post and was pleased to see it was now defunct. However, after browsing the site, on the membership form (https://imi.memberclicks.net/index.php?option=com_mc&view=mc&mcid=form_30069) it does stipulate:

We welcome you to join the IMI community of monks and nuns. As a member you agree:
I respect the guidance of HH Dalai Lama.
I respect the guidance of the Spiritual Director of IMI, Lama Zopa Rinpoche.
I will act in accordance with my monastic vows.
I will NOT engage in the practice of Dorje Shugden.
I will follow the guidelines established by IMI.


Why not stipulate I will NOT engage in satanic practice? I will NOT worship God?  I will NOT engage in Bon practice? Why is “NOT” the only capitalized word in the whole requirements list. Why NOT capitalize the word “RESPECT”?

Is it SO important to add this point about Dorje Shugden into an application form to be sangha, when there is no other deity/practice mentioned? So you can be a Satanic worshipper and still become a member, after all, it's not Dorje Shugden, right??

[vajrastorm]

It's just so amazing and unbelievable that FPMT should set up this condition (of not allowing members, seeking to be ordained as Sangha, to practice Dorje Shugden), when 70% of its lineage gurus have been Dorje Shugden practitioners and its founder, the great Bodhisattva and Mahasiddha, Lama Yeshe, was a devout practitioner of Shugden.

Furthermore, I wonder how many Dharma Protectors appear in monks' robes to symbolize holding the Vinaya vows strongly. Dorje Shugden is one of the rare ones. Isn't it sadly ironical that a sangha-to-be cannot practice a Protector whose very essence is His strong morality, His holding His Monks' vows strongly?

[Ensapa]

It is here that I find that things are a bit ironic. How the hell can they find out that anyone is a Dorje Shugden practitioner if they do not tell/keep quiet?! Dharma practices are kept quiet. One does not simply announce their Dharma practice to others, as what Boromir says:


(oh wait, Atisha also said the same thing. Oh well.)

So how would they know if we're Dorje Shugden practitioner or not? I find such rules self righteous and simply hypocritical and pretentious. Is there a sensor at the gompa's doors that will go bleep bleep when a Dorje Shugden practitioner walks through? Or is there a psychic member sitting behind the counter that will read minds?

[WisdomBeing]

Ensapa, I think it’s not the case of whether people can read your mind or not. Of course people will not know what is your practice unless you tell them. But by making people sign a form saying they do not practice is tantamount to lying if they are. If lying is not a big deal, then many monks would have just sworn that they have stopped practicing when they haven’t, so obviously the reason why Shar Gaden broke away was that there were monks who decided to make a stand for their dharma protector practice, regardless of HH the Dalai Lama’s mandate.  I am sure it was one of the toughest decisions they had to make – to break with their sangha, but their practice and their guru devotion was indisputably more important.

[Ensapa]

Ensapa, I think it’s not the case of whether people can read your mind or not. Of course people will not know what is your practice unless you tell them. But by making people sign a form saying they do not practice is tantamount to lying if they are. If lying is not a big deal, then many monks would have just sworn that they have stopped practicing when they haven’t, so obviously the reason why Shar Gaden broke away was that there were monks who decided to make a stand for their dharma protector practice, regardless of HH the Dalai Lama’s mandate.  I am sure it was one of the toughest decisions they had to make – to break with their sangha, but their practice and their guru devotion was indisputably more important.

I'm not exactly talking about the sangha that are involved, neither am I referring to any of those participating temples that are in Dharamsala that are within CTA's dominion and control. I am referring to FPMT centers around the world, and other 'clean' Gelug centers around the world who are not under CTA's control but put that sign up. In the case of those who are staying in places that the CTA has control of, they are indeed caught between a rock and a hard place and being made to swear or lie and basically being forced to break their vows one way or another. But in another scenario where it's just a Dharma center run by laypeople who barely dedicates an hour a week for the Dharma, I dont think so those people have the right to know anyone's Dharma practice. Not that I condone lying, but i dont condone the complete lack of privacy that some of these centers have as well.

If you want to put a sign that says Dorje Shugden practitioners are not allowed, why not put a sign that questions the sexuality of the members as well? In Dharamsala, that may be an edict, but in a developed country, i find it an utter invasion of privacy.

[DharmaSpace]

Buddha's prediction is coming to the forefront now that Buddhism is destroyed due to internal conflicts. FPMT by defying their founder's practice and literally breaking their vows and and samaya to their Gurus has triggered witch hunts and other squabbles within their dharma community and many of those who chose to follow their teacher's practice have left their organisation and some even converted as they see all these internal conflicts within Buddhist organisations. If FPMT does not repair their samaya with Dorje Shugden then it is only a matter of time before it all comes down collapsing.

If Lama Zopa can associate himself with Trijang Rinpoche when he was struck ill, who is and was the foremost advocate of Dorje Shugden and now beginning to teach once more
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/trijang-rinpoche-visits-europe-2012/
think people in FPMT?

Now why would the head of FPMT that is anti Shugden be in front of Trijang DorjeChang's stupa, Trijang Dorjechang is the probably the number lama associated with Dorje Shugden? Isn't Lama Zopa afraid he might get affected by Dorje Shugden?

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/spread-the-word/write-a-letter/make-a-difference-letter-25/