FPMT ordination requirements -- make sure you are NOT a Shugden practitioner!

[beggar]

Let's not even talk about something as big and significant as ordination. Let's consider for a moment what it even means to step foot into an FPMT center and associate with the people there; or for an FPMT member to read a Dharma book; or what it might mean for an FPMT member to be friends with people from other Dharma centers... hmmm?

Have a read of "The Questionable Policies of the FPMT", a commentary on "The Shugden Issue"
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-questionable-policies-of-the-fpmt/

Note for example,

"FPMT has made a commitment to support His Holiness, because of understanding the reasons why His Holiness has advised against this practice. Due to our commitment, we do not share our materials and facilities with those who knowingly continue to practice Shugden against this advice."

Surely, as a Dharma center shouldn't we be practicing the most basic tenents of kindness, patience, tolerance? As a center which surely practices the lojong, shouldn't we extend even more kindness to our enemies or the people who perceive as difficult? So why would any Dharma center advice against sharing materials and facilities with the people they are perceiving as most difficult? Actually, out of great compassion for these "lost souls" FPMT should extend even more of their help, resources and facilities to help "guide" them back onto the "right path"? Don't you think so?

[Ensapa]

Let's not even talk about something as big and significant as ordination. Let's consider for a moment what it even means to step foot into an FPMT center and associate with the people there; or for an FPMT member to read a Dharma book; or what it might mean for an FPMT member to be friends with people from other Dharma centers... hmmm?

Have a read of "The Questionable Policies of the FPMT", a commentary on "The Shugden Issue"
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-questionable-policies-of-the-fpmt/

Note for example,

"FPMT has made a commitment to support His Holiness, because of understanding the reasons why His Holiness has advised against this practice. Due to our commitment, we do not share our materials and facilities with those who knowingly continue to practice Shugden against this advice."

Surely, as a Dharma center shouldn't we be practicing the most basic tenents of kindness, patience, tolerance? As a center which surely practices the lojong, shouldn't we extend even more kindness to our enemies or the people who perceive as difficult? So why would any Dharma center advice against sharing materials and facilities with the people they are perceiving as most difficult? Actually, out of great compassion for these "lost souls" FPMT should extend even more of their help, resources and facilities to help "guide" them back onto the "right path"? Don't you think so?

It is a sad day indeed when entire Dharma organizations think that they are doing the world a favor by following religious edicts zealously in a way that shows they do not understand anything about the ban, what is being banned and why is it actually being banned at all. Just try to question those people in FPMT who "upholds" the ban and who "committed" to the Dalai Lama...and they will only repeat what the Dalai Lama said like a parrot, often with no depth and with a lot of confusion. Ask them further and present them with facts and they will resort to personal attacks and silly behavior. Shouldnt they at least know why and what and where and not come down so easily and be so insecure? If they are doing what the Dalai Lama tells them without investigating or without full understanding, is that nothing short of blind faith? And did the Dalai Lama not ask them to investigate everything including the Dalai Lama's own words? So why?

[dsiluvu]

Let's not even talk about something as big and significant as ordination. Let's consider for a moment what it even means to step foot into an FPMT center and associate with the people there; or for an FPMT member to read a Dharma book; or what it might mean for an FPMT member to be friends with people from other Dharma centers... hmmm?

Have a read of "The Questionable Policies of the FPMT", a commentary on "The Shugden Issue"
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-questionable-policies-of-the-fpmt/

Note for example,

"FPMT has made a commitment to support His Holiness, because of understanding the reasons why His Holiness has advised against this practice. Due to our commitment, we do not share our materials and facilities with those who knowingly continue to practice Shugden against this advice."

Oh my is this how a renowned Buddhist center acts, behaves and teaches? I wonder how they must be treating Shugden practitioners in their own countries when they do come across us, I am most certain it is not with kind words. Doesn't this also create schism amongst the sangha and is this not an even bigger negative karma? Put the Ban aside... are we not suppose to ultimately follow the laws of karma and Buddha's teachings?? Since when does what the Dalai Lama likes and dislikes becomes a Dharma center's agenda to benefit others? Since when does Dharma centers get involve in politics? Since when did the Buddha taught to create rules of blatant discrimination??

This speaks volumes of FPMT students' mind set and I am not surprised if they would actually cause trouble to other centers they "suspect" practice Dorje Shugden by defaming, gossiping and spread negative talks. Not only does this show how political they are but it also show that their focus is not Dharma. And let's not forget FPMT was founded by Lama Yeshe who is their lineage root Guru who used to practice the so called "evil" Dorje Shugden... and well, if Lama Yeshe practiced something wrong or bad... then why on earth is he back??

Could this schismatic karma and horrible biased discrimination by FPMT also be the cause for Lama Yeshe current incarnation to disrobe and the many obstacles that have arisen in not exactly a smooth reunion between the both? Take a read at the Letter from Yeshe, FPMT http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/letter-from-yeshe-fpmt/ 

[Ensapa]

Oh my is this how a renowned Buddhist center acts, behaves and teaches? I wonder how they must be treating Shugden practitioners in their own countries when they do come across us, I am most certain it is not with kind words. Doesn't this also create schism amongst the sangha and is this not an even bigger negative karma? Put the Ban aside... are we not suppose to ultimately follow the laws of karma and Buddha's teachings?? Since when does what the Dalai Lama likes and dislikes becomes a Dharma center's agenda to benefit others? Since when does Dharma centers get involve in politics? Since when did the Buddha taught to create rules of blatant discrimination??

This speaks volumes of FPMT students' mind set and I am not surprised if they would actually cause trouble to other centers they "suspect" practice Dorje Shugden by defaming, gossiping and spread negative talks. Not only does this show how political they are but it also show that their focus is not Dharma. And let's not forget FPMT was founded by Lama Yeshe who is their lineage root Guru who used to practice the so called "evil" Dorje Shugden... and well, if Lama Yeshe practiced something wrong or bad... then why on earth is he back??

Could this schismatic karma and horrible biased discrimination by FPMT also be the cause for Lama Yeshe current incarnation to disrobe and the many obstacles that have arisen in not exactly a smooth reunion between the both? Take a read at the Letter from Yeshe, FPMT http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/letter-from-yeshe-fpmt/

They could have said it in a better way like "As we are adherents to the Dalai Lama's policies, we would like to kindly request that Dorje Shugden practitioners not come to our center so...yeah" There are so many other better ways that will promote mutual understanding and mutual respect rather than a rude no entry sign that is discriminatory and unbuddhistic in all aspects. I just dont understand  how can people like this consider themselves to be Buddhist in any way when they seem to express hate when they think that it is justified or that it is a good opportunity to express their hatred. Interesting how Dharma practitioners are these days.

[beggar]

I think it's very important to bear in mind, as we talk about this, that these discussions about FPMT should in no way be disrespectful towards Lama Zopa - who himself was recognised by Dorje Shugden and who engaged in his practice very strongly before the ban.

It is important to also remember that Lama Zopa has personally never spoken against Dorje Shugden, nor put down Shugden practitioners. Nor has he ever openly encouraged any kind of mistreatment and kindness towards DS practitioners. Rather, his line of thought has always been to follow the advice of the Dalai Lama and maintain deep respect for him. This is very different from develop animosity towards Dorje Shugden practitioners.

And as Dharma practitioners and students we must realise that these two are not mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible to respect and follow the instructions of one lama without it being at the expense of any other practitioner or Lama. I certainly do not think that a lama like Zopa Rinpoche would in any way encourage the mistreatment, politicising and ostracism of Shugden practitioners, simply because they practice Shugden.  If Lama Zopa doesn't do it, then why should any of the rest of us who might consider him our teacher?

[TheRedGaruda]

It is incredibly saddening to read that such a requirement is imposed. I would be quite turned off if I saw this upon registering at any center, and I do not wish for this forum post to be an "Anti-FPMT" one. There are no other Buddhist sects which requires you to denounce or swear that you do not practice a particular deity, in order for you to practice Buddhism. Who are we to decide the requirements to practice the Buddha Dharma?

For any FPMT members reading this, please consider the facts:

1. Venerable Lama Thubten Zopa Rinpoche, Spiritual Director of the FPMT, was recognized by Dorje Shugden himself.

"It was at this Monastery, the monks asked Dorje Shugden in full trance whether this young boy from Nepal was indeed a Tulku Incarnation as the young boy himself insisted that he was. DORJE SHUGDEN CONFIRMED IT. Yes Dorje Shugden took full possession/trance of Dungkar’s oracle and conferred the Rinpoche title on Lama Zopa and till this day it still holds.

So the current holder of the whole FPMT organization, our own Lama Zopa Rinpoche, was recognized, installed and enthroned by Dorje Shugden himself as a reincarnation or a Tulku. It is on that basis that Lama Zopa received special training from Lama Yeshe."

This was written by Yeshe Sangye, a student of Lama Zopa, who commented on the book, "The Lawudo Lama", by Jamyang Wangmo. The foreword of this book was written by His Holiness the Dalai Lama himself. In this book, Dorje Shugden is mentioned. Why does HHDL endorse anything to do with Dorje Shugden?

Click here to read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/


2. Lama Zopa received initiation of Dorje Shugden from Trijang Rinpoche.

I myself took the initiation of Shugden from His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche. There were four of us. Lama Yeshe, Claudio Cipullo, Piero Cerri and myself. - Lama Zopa

Lama Zopa Rinpoche gave this talk to students of the FPMT’s Masters Program at Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa, 22 October 2000. Edited by Nicholas Ribush.

 
If Lama Zopa took initiation from Trijang Rinpoche, is Trijang Rinpoche therefore wrong to have initiated Lama Zopa?

If Trijang Rinpoche is wrong, is HHDL teachings and practices therefore wrong as He received teachings from Trijang Rinpoche (HHDL's junior tutor)?

If Trijang Rinpoche is wrong, why did HHDL give an exception to Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden?

Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden	Small | Large

If HHDL gave an exception to Trijang Rinpoche, why is it that Lama Zopa had to outwardly denounce Dorje Shugden's practice?

If a practice, of any kind can be practiced when politically correct, and NOT practiced when politically incorrect - how sacred are the empowerments of an initiation?

Remember, Trijang Rinpoche is Lama Zopa's root guru.

Click here to read more: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-received-dorje-shugden-initiaiton-from-trijang-rinpoche/


3. One of Lama Zopa's lineage lamas is Pabongkha Rinpoche. This is what Lama Zopa advises on his guru's guru:

"Another thing is that some Tibetans and others severely criticize Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo because he practiced Shugden, making him out to be some kind of demon. However, Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo wrote incredible teachings on sutra and tantra; on Heruka, Tara Cittamani and many other topics. All these amazing teachings were written purely from his experience. So it’s impossible that he can really be some kind of evil being, as those extremists accuse him of being. There’s no way he could have done the negative things they say he did."

So, if one was to denounce a practice that Pabongka Rinpoche passed to Trijang Rinpoche (who passed it on to Lama Zopa Rinpoche) why do they not stop practicing Heruka, Tara Cittamani and other incredible teachings on sutra and tantra that Pabongkha Rinpoche wrote?

Are we able to practice selection?


4. Read another extract from Lama Zopa's own words:

Of course, Lama and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances. Of course, this was not Lama’s principal practice. His principal practice was bodhicitta, emptiness, clear light, illusory body and so forth. The protector puja was done simply to overcome obstacles.

Lama Zopa clearly states that both Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa himself practiced Dorje Shugden when faced with troubles. I believe that Lama Zopa and Lama Yeshe are both living Buddhas - were they wrong to rely on Dorje Shugden, if Dorje Shugden is a mere spirit. Why do enlightened beings need to rely on "worldly spirits"?


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These are just some of my thoughts. I do not believe in accepting everything at first glance, and implore for current FPMT members (including those who are no in favour of the Dorje Shugden practice) to read between the lines of the words from their illustrious guru, Lama Zopa.

Share with me what you think. I'd love to hear other forum-pa's standpoints!

[Ensapa]

Obviously, Lama Zopa is a DS practitioner but hie has to outwardly show that he is not to show respect to the Dalai Lama and also to not confuse the Dalai Lama's students that are under him. I think what he has done is only due to the situation and that he did not have much of a choice: be a bad example to many Tibetan buddhists by going against the Dalai Lama or be a good example and 'go against' Dorje Shugden outwardly but practice him secretly. As far as I know, there are much reports of Lama Zopa requesting the nearby Dorje Shugden monastery in Nepal for Dorje Shugden pujas and him visiting Trijang Rinpoche's stupa. The students should really be more polite rather than  rude because it will only reflect them in a negative light.

[icy]

FPMT ordination requirement...make sure you are NOT a Shugden practitioner?  Oh my Buddha is this the greatest joke on earth!  Where is your compassion FPMT?  Do not be ridiculous, you are supposed to benefit all sentient beings but you made exception to this ordination rule? 

[Ensapa]

In this case, I dont blame Lama Zopa at all. He only requested Dorje Shugden practitioners to not be associated with FPMT out of respect for the Dalai Lama. The students should put that letter up instead of writing their own version which is rude and abrasive for Dorje Shugden practitioners. I think the whole thing is just a case of students misrepresenting the Lama and also the students lacking compassion and progress in their own Dharma practice. No wonder Lama Zopa had a stroke and Lama Osel does not manifest as a Lama. What else do you think is the consequences of misrepresenting the Lama and taking the easy way out of things that should not be done so and hurting people blatantly? FPMT centers around the world have stagnated and there is barely any news from them these days. That's the result of their anti Shugden policy.

[thor]

If I may poke some holes into the facade of IMI... let's take a look at what they have on their website:

The International Mahayana Institute (IMI) is a community of Buddhist monks and nuns of the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT). Lama Yeshe, the founder of FPMT, established the IMI in 1973. Lama Zopa Rinpoche is the current Spiritual Director of IMI.

In 1973, the Dalai Lama had yet to start his illogical ban on Shugden. The Yellow Book, written by Zemey Rinpoche, only came to light in 1975. So in 1973, all of you would have been happily practicing Dorje Shugden as your founder Lama Yeshe was a stalwart practitioner.

As emissaries of Buddhism, we inspire others through our speech and behaviour and provide the opportunity for lay practitioners to integrate respect and support for Sangha into their practice of Buddhism.

Sorry guys, I dont see any respect or support for Sangha in your practice of condemning those who have a differing opinion of the true nature of Dorje Shugden.

Our community contributes to world peace and individual spiritual growth by keeping the Buddha’s teachings alive, and inspiring others with values of ethical behavior, tolerance, compassion and wisdom.

Again, I dont see no tolerance or compassion. Individual spiritual growth? Please.

IMI is distinct in preserving the unique lineage of Lama Tsong Khapa, integrating study and practice as manifested by its teachers, HH Dalai Lama, Lama Zopa Rinpoche, and Lama Yeshe all the while adapting to various cultures and conditions around the world.

By various cultures and conditions around the world, do they mean adapting to the Dalai Lama's dictatorial approach to Shugden's practice? Do they mean abandoning the principles and practices of their founder Lama Yeshe so that they are politically correct? Do they mean giving up guru devotion and their lineage for the sake of ADAPTING??

And referring to the teachings given by Ven. Lama Yeshe for those wanting to be ordained, I dont hear any requirements to be a non Shugden practitioner. These talks are posted on the IMI website ( imisangha.org/ordain/advice-for-monks-or-nuns ) and were given in 1982, after the Dalai Lama had started his tirade against Shugden. If it was so important, or even a valid requirements, to be a Non Shugden practitioner, surely Lama Yeshe would have said something? Even more so, surely Lama Yeshe himself would not be practicing a so-called evil spirit? How can the great Lama Yeshe make such a basic mistake? And why would Lama Yeshe keep practicing Dorje Shugden till the end of his life, unless he knew the Dalai Lama was wrong?

To me, it seems that the IMI and by extension the FPMT just want to remain politically correct and in the good books of the Dalai Lama.

[diablo1974]

Am wondering who set these rules? Lay people or the sangha? I don't know, but there's always supporters and anti-supporters to an organization. But whichever it is, i do not encourage Buddhist brothers to outwardly and directly pass unsupported and baseless remarks/comments to any organization. Its affecting those group of people who have just encounter Buddhism and people who have very little knowledge about Buddhism. Buddhism always portrays an image of peace and compassion, but with more acts like this, it looks like we have an internal warfare within Buddhism itself.

[Ensapa]

Am wondering who set these rules? Lay people or the sangha? I don't know, but there's always supporters and anti-supporters to an organization. But whichever it is, i do not encourage Buddhist brothers to outwardly and directly pass unsupported and baseless remarks/comments to any organization. Its affecting those group of people who have just encounter Buddhism and people who have very little knowledge about Buddhism. Buddhism always portrays an image of peace and compassion, but with more acts like this, it looks like we have an internal warfare within Buddhism itself.

It is obviously set up by laypeople. Lama Zopa's original instruction differs wildly from the hardline rules that these people have put up on their centers. To me, the 'rules' that the laity has set up in the name of Lama Zopa is very different from what Lama Zopa had said, as he put it in a very nice request to Dorje Shugden practitioners that due to respect for the Dalai Lama, he has no choice but to not allow Dorje Shugden practitioners to his centers. The notices and rules that the laity has given to the centers is very obviously rude and abrasive and unbuddhistic at all. Would it not be better for them to put up Lama Zopa's original instructions rather than to re-write their lama's instructions? Since when was it okay to rewrite the Lama's instructions in such a way? This is quite sad in a way.

[WisdomBeing]

this discussion on the forum is wonderful because people who have come across this directive from FPMT can now see the whole picture rather than just what some biased and bigoted policy makers want you to see. From this thread, we can see what Lama Zopa actually said, as opposed to what FPMT's directive states. We also learned that Lama Zopa was a Dorje Shugden practitioner before and received the practice from HH Trijang Rinpoche. When we see Lama Zopa's own words, we know what a difficult position he was in. It is so sad that this ban has to reduce such a kind, respectable Lama like Lama Zopa to give up his practice - outwardly at least.

[Manjushri]

Its ridiculous that FPMT has "Not a Shugden practitioner" as part of their ordination requirements. Who's rules are those? I don't think that it is written anywhere that by being a shugden practitioner, you can't be ordained. Otherwise, all the sangha in Shar Gaden and Serpom, Lama Yeshe, Gangchen Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, were all falsely ordained. Which cannot be the case.

The requirement is pure discrimination and serves no purpose to anyone.

[Ensapa]

Its ridiculous that FPMT has "Not a Shugden practitioner" as part of their ordination requirements. Who's rules are those? I don't think that it is written anywhere that by being a shugden practitioner, you can't be ordained. Otherwise, all the sangha in Shar Gaden and Serpom, Lama Yeshe, Gangchen Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, were all falsely ordained. Which cannot be the case.

The requirement is pure discrimination and serves no purpose to anyone.

It does serve a purpose and it is to show everyone that they gained favor points from the Dalai Lama's camp. Which I personally think it is not important and a waste of time. But if they think it helps them then go ahead and do it. FPMT is not run directly by Lama Zopa himself, for sure and it is probably run by lay devotees who would probably not have as much insight or info in the whole Dorje Shugden issue anyway. The other question is, in these countries, would it not be an invasion of privacy if we have to tell them what Dharma practice we are doing? Is it not invasive and abrasive to post such a notice? How does this reflect as a Buddhist center for newcomers who dont know anything at all? They would question why the hate towards Dorje Shugden right? And when they do, they would be dismayed to know how much politics Buddhism can have.