Dalai Lama accused of seeking 'Tibet independence'

[icy]

The Dalai Lama reiterates he is seeking genuine autonomy and not independence for Tibet.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama speaking during his talk at the Beacon Theater in New York on October 20, 2013.

DHARAMSHALA, October22: Tibetan spiritual leader Dalai Lama who is currently on fortnight visit to the United States re-affirmed his commitment to the Middle-Way Approach to resolve the issue of Tibet on Sunday.

“Our stand is not to seek independence but genuine autonomy. We want to modernize Tibet. But we must be able to preserve our fragile natural environment, whose waters serve a billion people in Asia, and we must be able to protect our culture, language and religion,” the Dalai Lama said at a public talk on the virtue of non-violence at Beacon Theatre in New York City.

He further noted that the Middle Way Approach is in the interests of all concerned. "A small group want complete independence, but they have come up with no method for achieving it. They have no strategy. We have to be realistic.”

The Nobel laureate also explained the difference between violence and non-violence. He stressed that non-violence is not an excuse for inertia and that violence is invariably related to a strong sense of self-centredness and to the notion of ‘us’ and ‘them’.

He said, over the last 60 years four distinct eras in China can be seen. "Mao’s era of ideology, Deng Xiaoping’s era of creating wealth, Jiang Zemin’s welcoming the better-off into the party and Hu Jintao’s not entirely successful attempts to secure a harmonious society. Harmony is essential, but it is secured by trust and respect not by the use of force," the Tibetan leader said.
“Now a new era associated with Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang has begun, in which it may be hoped they will exercise common sense and follow Deng’s admonition to seek truth from facts.”

Since 2009, 122 Tibetans have set themselves on fire in Tibet calling for freedom in Tibet and return of His Holiness the Dalai Lama to Ti

[Matibhadra]

Do you have a reference for this?  I am just curious.

My informant was a Gelugpa monk on the Dalai Lama's side, in Bodhgaya, by June 2001. He described it as a fact of general knowledge, not as any secret.

I would imagine that there was some political nonsense going on there as well; I would doubt the Nyingmas were worried about this deity until it became politically helpful to do so.

Probably the source of the Nyingma hatred against the Protector together with his incarnation lineage starts with some Nyingmapas' dissatisfaction with the the great Büton, who did not include Nyingma Tantras lacking the Sanskrit original in his compilation of the Kangyur, and even earlier with Sakya Pandita, who rejected some key Nyingma teachings. It apparently continued with the murdering of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen by a Bhutanese Nyingmapa hired by the Desi Sangye Gyatso, if not by the 5th Dalai Lama himself, probaly in an attemp to mute (whence the kata down the throat) any possible criticism of the 5th's Gelug-Nyingma politico-religious mix, and then with the Nyingmapa masters hired by the very same 5th Dalai Lama to destroy Dorje Shugden, and continues down to our days, with widespread hysteria among most Nyingmapas I am aware of over a mere reference to the Protector, let alone the mention of his name or the display of his image. Contemporary Nyingma teachers such as Dudjom Rinpoche even produced amulets to “protect” against the Protector; Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche or his father Urgyen Rinpoche (Ka-Nyin) would be the ones behind the statue of a Nyingma protector trampling on Dorje Shugden, so vigorously condemned by the previous Karmapa; Namkhai Norbu is famous for his uncontrollable Protector-phobic crisis, and so forth.

Therefore, the ban against Dorje Shugden seems to be a Nyingma issue to the bones, the 5th, 13th and 14th Dalai Lamas enforcing the ban precisely because of their Nyingma connections.

So much so that the 7th Dalai Lama, a true practitioner who never mixed traditions (and therefore is looked down by the current 14th), did not enforce any ban. And what was behind the early deaths of the 8th through the 12th Dalai Lamas would be an interesting topic of study.

On the positive side, there is the noble attitude of Penor Rinpoche, plus, reportedly, the lack of any hostility from the side of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

So I've never thought real democracy is possible with capitalism, since obviously one big way to control people is through money.

As said good old Aristotle: ”As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth”.

So, if as in capitalism, the end is wealth, what we get is either tyranny or oligarchy, never democracy.

[Blueupali]

Thank you jspitanga for telling me about some Nyingmas' 'fear' of Dorje Shugden.
  My goodness.  How silly to tell people that we have a ghost---- actually among the  last people who ought to be afraid of ghosts and difficult to subdue demons should be the Nyinmgas--- since they rely on Padmasambava who always subdued demons and converted them to dharma.
  So if Dorje Shugden is still around, then they should figure he mustn't be that bad--- since Padmasambava could obviously handle a ghost.
 

[icy]

The Dalai Lama is hopeful of automony for Tibet.

(CBS News) The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to the Dalai Lama in 1989. He's the spiritual leader for millions of people and an international symbol for millions of others. However, the Dalai Lama insists he is only a simple Buddhist monk

Tenzin Gyatso is the 14th Dalai Lama and the only one who has visited America. During his trip to New York this past weekend, the 78-year-old spiritual leader spoke six different times.

He told "CBS This Morning" co-host Norah O'Donnell that his message in the United States was that "anger, hatred, fear is very bad for our health."

"More and more scientists really showing interest about -- our mental system, system of emotion," he said.

He also said his message was about "how to become a happy human being."

The Dalai Lama is known for his humor and, of course, for his holiness. Tibetan Buddhists believe that each Dalai Lama is a reincarnation of the previous one.

At age four, in 1939, Gyatso was publicly named the new Dalai Lama, but as China began occupying Tibet in the 1950s, he left for India. After more than 50 years in exile, he continues to call for Tibet's autonomy and hopes china's new leadership will listen.

O'Donnell asked the Dalai Lama if he has talked to Chinese President Xi Jinping and while he hasn't, he said his Chinese friends have told him that this new regime has a "more liberal, more open-minded" way of thinking. He is hopeful that Tibet could gain autonomy.

Dalai Lama calls on China to investigate Tibet self-immolation protests

"I think too early to say, but there are -- this kind of opinions among Chinese friends," he said. "So we'll see."

Asked for his reaction to China telling world leaders not to talk to him, he said he could understand their position.

"I mean, from their own view, it is quite logical. Some of the Chinese officials consider me as a demon, so it is really worthwhile to ... stop meeting with 'demon,'" he said.

He also said that these difficult relations with China don't make him angry. After all, anger is just one of the temptations that have no place in this monk's life. The Dalai Lama told O'Donnell that he's celibate and doesn't drink or use tobacco, but that one of his weaknesses was "seeing" beautiful women.

O'Donnell asked the Dalai Lama if his successor could be a female, and he said "yes, of course."

"If the circumstance is such a female Dalai Lama can -- can be more useful, then, why not?" he said.


For more of Norah O'Donnell's interview with the Dalai Lama, watch the video in the player above.

[Big Uncle]

Thank you jspitanga for telling me about some Nyingmas' 'fear' of Dorje Shugden.
  My goodness.  How silly to tell people that we have a ghost---- actually among the  last people who ought to be afraid of ghosts and difficult to subdue demons should be the Nyinmgas--- since they rely on Padmasambava who always subdued demons and converted them to dharma.
  So if Dorje Shugden is still around, then they should figure he mustn't be that bad--- since Padmasambava could obviously handle a ghost.
 

As for the Nyingma's 'aversion' to Gelug also reached a zenith during the time of Kyabje Pabongka, who was charismatic both amongst monastic and lay circles - which happen to be the stronghold of Kagyu-Nyingma lamas in certain regions of Tibet. This stirred jealousy and enmity with Kyabje Pabongka who sought to promote Lamrim, Vajrayogini and Dorje Shugden. Seen as a Gelug stalwart, there were circulating rumours that continue to this day of him destroying Guru Rinpoche's statues and converting Nyingma monasteries to Gelug. This is interesting because in his Lamrim discourse, he advocated Guru Rinpoche as the same mind stream as Lama Tsongkhapa, Atisha and Buddha Shakyamuni.

[Matibhadra]

As for the Nyingma's 'aversion' to Gelug also reached a zenith during the time of Kyabje Pabongka, who was charismatic both amongst monastic and lay circles - which happen to be the stronghold of Kagyu-Nyingma lamas in certain regions of Tibet.

Interestingly, the time when the Nyingma's aversion to Gelug reached a zenith was also the time were the British were very cosy with the 13th Dalai Lama, who even offered them as a gift a huge chunk of Tibet (South Tibet, now Arunachal Pradesh in India) -- and, funny enough, no Tibetan “patriot” ever remembered to call him a traitor!

Therefore, it would not be unlikely a Western-Dalai-Nyingma anti-Gelug axis, each of them having their own reasons not to be happy with a strong monastic Gelug organization, specially, in the case of the Dalai Lama, if this monastic organization is not focused on himself, but on the “spirit” of his most hated rival.

This stirred jealousy and enmity with Kyabje Pabongka who sought to promote Lamrim, Vajrayogini and Dorje Shugden. Seen as a Gelug stalwart, there were circulating rumours that continue to this day of him destroying Guru Rinpoche's statues and converting Nyingma monasteries to Gelug.

Funny rumours indeed, which never specify which monasteries were forcibly converted and when, and where was the powerful “army” Pabongkha Rinpoche would need for the task.

But it is credible that some Nyingmas did convert to Gelug as a consequence of Pabongkha's powerful teachings, and that disgruntled Nyingma leaders had to tell the tale in a different way.   

This is interesting because in his Lamrim discourse, he advocated Guru Rinpoche as the same mind stream as Lama Tsongkhapa, Atisha and Buddha Shakyamuni.

But maybe not the same mindstream as the mythical “Padmasambhava” emerging from the termas, strongly refuted as a fantasy, for instance, by the foremost Tibetan historian, Taranatha.

[icy]

So does the Dalai Lama believe China’s leaders may be more willing to negotiate with him over conditions in Tibet than in the past? Beijing has long accused him of covertly seeking independence for about one-quarter of China’s land mass, despite his insistence that he only wants autonomy for ethnic Tibetans within China. Hardliners believe Tibetan religiosity, identity and resistance to Beijing will fade once the ageing Dalai Lama leaves the scene.  What do you say?

[Matibhadra]

Hardliners believe Tibetan religiosity, identity and resistance to Beijing will fade once the ageing Dalai Lama leaves the scene.  What do you say?

I would say that, as soon as the Western puppet Dalai enters the garbage bin of history, the scenario will be quite different:

Tibetan religiosity will increase, because it will not anymore be polluted by the Dalai's spurious mixing of religion with politics;

the sense of identity of Tibetan people will increase, because they will realize that they have a pure Dharma to preserve and be proud of, and thus were not born to be the cannon fodder of Western barbarian materialistic expansionistic imperialistic mass-murdering geopoliticians, as the unscrupulous Dalai and his minions, with a motivation of personal profit, want them Tibetans to be; and

resistance to Beijing will fade away because Tibetans together with hundreds of millions of devout Chinese Buddhists will see that united they will be able to counter the ongoing invasion and mass destruction of Buddhist lands and people by the hordes of Western Abrahamic barbarians, as delineated by their supreme mentor, the Jew Henry Kissinger (in case you doubt it, please read his own words at http://www.globalresearch.ca/accurate-satire-henry-kissinger-if-you-can-t-hear-the-drums-of-war-you-must-be-deaf/?print=1).

[Blueupali]

This is interesting because in his Lamrim discourse, he advocated Guru Rinpoche as the same mind stream as Lama Tsongkhapa, Atisha and Buddha Shakyamuni.

But maybe not the same mindstream as the mythical “Padmasambhava” emerging from the termas, strongly refuted as a fantasy, for instance, by the foremost Tibetan historian, Taranatha.

Padmasambava and Guru Rinpoche are the same Buddha:); and I would say a lot of the more modern termas, like Migur Dorje's Sky Treasures--- Migur Dorje was Milarepa and Padmasambava, I'm told by Palyul Nyingmas; so in the Kadam emanation scripture--- basically only holy beings could see, it, which is similar to Nyingma sky treasure termas.
  Yes the Gelugs and Nyinmgas are a little funny about each other's holy texts sometimes, but I think it is because people had these holy texts from Padmasambava, and then the dharma degenerated, and false teachers mistaught the teachings. 
  So it's not that there is anything bad at all about termas, as long as they are really from Padmasambava, but the issue becomes how can we tell if it is from Padmasambava.
  I think to me, that the Kadam emanation scripture sounds like terma, but only from Buddha Manjushri rather than Buddha Padmasambava.
  Now, here I am on a site which has a lot of very pure Gelugpa practioners, so please tell me how do you see that?

And to me, I am really delighted to hear that Padmasambava is supposed to be Je Tsongkapa; I actually had that the other way around in my mind:).  And I think Guru Rinpoche is more wrathful, so he would correspond to Dorje Shudgden. 

[Matibhadra]

My point is not indeed about the legitimacy, or lack thereof, of teachings found in unusual ways, such as the Prajnaparamita sutras found among the Nagas or the teachings of Maitreya found in Tushita, and so forth, neither is it about Padmasambhava being Atisha being Tsongkhapa, and so forth.

My point is rather about the stark distinction between an actual Padmasambhava, as recorded by historians such as Taranatha (which might explain why Jonangpas are another target of Nyingma hatred), and the mythological, politically designed Padmasambhava, emerging centuries after the fact from the terma literature.

One thing is to dismiss a teaching just because it is a terma, another completely different is to accept a teaching just because it is a terma. However, both attitudes are the same, in that they equally contradict Buddha's teachings.

[Blueupali]

My point is not indeed about the legitimacy, or lack thereof, of teachings found in unusual ways, such as the Prajnaparamita sutras found among the Nagas or the teachings of Maitreya found in Tushita, and so forth, neither is it about Padmasambhava being Atisha being Tsongkhapa, and so forth.

My point is rather about the stark distinction between an actual Padmasambhava, as recorded by historians such as Taranatha (which might explain why Jonangpas are another target of Nyingma hatred), and the mythological, politically designed Padmasambhava, emerging centuries after the fact from the terma literature.

One thing is to dismiss a teaching just because it is a terma, another completely different is to accept a teaching just because it is a terma. However, both attitudes are the same, in that they equally contradict Buddha's teachings.

Okay, I am not always clear on why the Nyingmas and Gelugpas sometimes have issues with each other; I didn't know about the political version of Padmasambava, for instance.
  I do know only of the pure Padamasambava, though I certainly know his teachings got misued.  We can of course take any pure figure and weave our impure motives, be they political or otherwise impure (such as enjoying drinking and consorts for impure reasons).
  I am just saying that I really am happy to find out that Je Tsongkapa and Padmasambava (the uncorrupted Buddha, not a later political interpretation) are seen as the same continuum by some high Gelug lamas.
  This is very meaningful to me on a spiritual level, and also helps explain perhaps why I couldn't tell Dorje Shugden from Guru Rinpoche at one point.  It's also helpful if we think how some confused people will try to use Guru Rinpoche against Dorje Shugden (); if we can just notice to get over these attitudes, it would go a long way in solving our problems.

[Matibhadra]

I didn't know about the political version of Padmasambava, for instance.

It is just the apotheotic re-creation of Padmasambhava by the tertön, merely aimed at legitimizing himself, the tertön, as an authority -- not different from the Baron of Münchhausen, who rescued himself (and his horse) out of the quicksand by pulling his own hairs.

A clever trick, which has little to do with miraculously obtained teachings such as the Prajnaparamita sutras or the texts of Maitreya.

I do know only of the pure Padamasambava, though I certainly know his teachings got misued.

Or, more precisely, his image was manipulated and misused, as a political tool, to give authority to the tertön.

[Matibhadra]

As to the “teachings” of Padmasambhava there are none, except for a commentary to one chapter of a Nyingma-only tantra, lately and dubiously ascribed to him, where the Iranian-Manichaeist-Bönpo-non-Buddhist “dzogchen” theory (“Let's awaken the already awakened state”) plays no role.

The rest is essentially Bönpo and Nyingma (and even Gelugpa, remember the “great” 5th) tertön self-serving politically designed mythology.

[Blueupali]

As to the “teachings” of Padmasambhava there are none, except for a commentary to one chapter of a Nyingma-only tantra, lately and dubiously ascribed to him, where the Iranian-Manichaeist-Bönpo-non-Buddhist “dzogchen” theory (“Let's awaken the already awakened state”) plays no role.

The rest is essentially Bönpo and Nyingma (and even Gelugpa, remember the “great” 5th) tertön self-serving politically designed mythology.
[/quote

I think we have teachings from Padmasambava much like from Milarepa; it might not necessarily be written down, because not everything has to come from a book.

[Matibhadra]

I think we have teachings from Padmasambava much like from Milarepa; it might not necessarily be written down, because not everything has to come from a book.

Padmsambhava's personality cult is essential for Nyingma's self-identity and self-assertion. Thus, Nyingmapas will ascribe most everything to Padmasambhava.

However, the Buddha's first advice on reliability was to rely on the teaching, not on the personality of the teacher.