ESSENCE OF THE CONTROVERSY: Questions for Pro-Ban People

[psylotripitaka]

This post is directed at pro-ban visitors of this site. Not a tall order, just two sincere questions for you. Forget for a moment that we're Buddhist, anti or pro ban. Two common sense questions:

Can you please explain to me -

1) How is it even possible that people who have extensive training in logic and debate do not see all the contradictions in the reasoning they use to support the ban?

2) How is it even possible for people with a good heart to perpetuate the extensive sufferings of religious and human rights abuse due to the ban?



I am sincere. If you really believe it is important to support the ban, and want to convince people like me that it is valid, you need to have sound logic. Meaning, it is irrefutable. At the very least it needs to make sense and not contradict BuddhaDharma.

Thank you for your consideration. I look forward to a productive scientific dialogue with you.

[Big Uncle]

I am not actually supporting the ban because I practice Dorje Shugden but I have a few ideas of what they would say to answer your questions. I am going to take off my pro-Dorje Shugden cap for awhile and don a pro-ban cap to answer you. So, don't throw eggs at me ok.

1) How is it even possible that people who have extensive training in logic and debate do not see all the contradictions in the reasoning they use to support the ban?

There is no contradiction in the ban because the Dalai Lama is beyond any contradictions with his Gurus. He is Chenrezig. He is doing this to save us from the tyranny of a dangerous spirit. He was unable to subdue the spirit in past lifetimes because he is giving the spirit a chance to make amends. However, the spirit had caused much disharmony within the Gelug and even threatens the Dalai Lama's wish to unite the Tibetan Schools.

2) How is it even possible for people with a good heart to perpetuate the extensive sufferings of religious and human rights abuse due to the ban?

It is not possible. The Dalai Lama has not cause the suffering. It is people refusing to accept the fact that Dorje Shugden is a negative and harmful spirit. They hold on to this negative practice and therefore wreak havoc upon themselves. The Dalai Lama won't allow contact because the spirit will harm them too. Therefore, the Dalai Lama is containing the harm done by Dorje Shugden and not allow it to spread even further.

[Matibhadra]

He is Chenrezig.

The non-Buddhist argument of infallible personal authority.

Since Buddhism is based on the authority of direct perception and logic, this is clear evidence that the Dalai and the Dalaites are non-Buddhist, and indeed anti-Buddhist.

As such, the Dalai and the Dalaites should be banned from interfering with any Buddhist lineage, institution, or practitioner, while being allowed to follow their own newly created sect, as long as they don't violate the law of the country about inciting riots, murdering, suicide, religious intolerance, and so forth.

Above everything else, there is a need for any Buddhist to thoroughly ban and expunge the non-Buddhist and anti-Buddhist teacher Dalai from their hearts (except as an object of compassion) with the thought “It is not the Nobel Prize committee or the bankster mythologizing press who decides who is my guru”.

Thus purified from the poison of mixing Dharma with politics, all Tibetan Buddhist lineages will flourish in Tibet, in China, and abroad, each one with their own special teachings and protectors, benefiting countless sentient beings according to their own predispositions, while the Dalai mythology will rotten in the garbage bin of history.

[WisdomBeing]

These are good questions, psylotripitaka. However, i don't think pro-ban visitors would ever respond because they have no basis to respond on. Actually, to add to what jspitanga said - and what Big Uncle is doing by playing devil's advocate, what if we don't see the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig? Immediately everything falls apart. The ban is immediately unquestionably WRONG, based on logic and buddhadharma. However, because of this common view of the Dalai Lama as a Buddha, then everything he does is seen to be enlightened and whatever we do not understand is simply explained as what we do not see because we are unenlightened. Perhaps it is simply a case of the Emperor with No Clothes.

[psylotripitaka]

I grew up with and have encountered fundamentalist Christians (no disrespect intended) that were so blinded by their blind faith that they could not have a reasonable conversation based on logic or common sense. Thank you for your responses, it answered my questions. I think I'll just withdraw into the cave of meditation now as my time is almost done here on earth. My best wishes to you all, see you in dakiniland. HUM PHAT!

[Manisha Kudo]

The Dalai Lama was and is not operating from logic or reason. He is presenting before the world something that defies empirical science. It is even paranormal!  He labeled Dorje Shugden an evil spirit, a demon. Upon hearing these words, even I am slightly dumfounded. And so he is manipulating the emotions and blind faith of the people who do not question his words. Why? Because he is the Dalai Lama. Because he is Chenrenzig. No room for logic.     

[Rinchen]

Since the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig, why wouldn't the Dalai Lama stopped or ban Dorje Shugden practices in the first place? Instead, the 5th Dalai Lama wrote prayers to praise Dorje Shugden, and even made statues of Dorje Shugden.

Through this it just shows that the Dalai Lama is contradicting himself. At the same time, the Dalai Lama might be having some plans about Tibetan Buddhism as a whole that we do not know about it yet.

[Matibhadra]

He labeled Dorje Shugden an evil spirit, a demon.

The funny thing is that the Dalai never mentions such ridiculous medieval beliefs in his meetings with scientists -- let alone that he furiously persecutes his own people because of them!

Therefore, if there is any “evil spirit” or “demon”, it is only the Dalai himself. And, as Wisdom Being implied, the emperor has no clothes, and people will not be fooled forever by this cheap counterfeiture of a holy being.

Meanwhile, Buddhist practitioners can rely on an authentic Buddhist teachers such as Milarepa on this issue, remembering that “evil spirits” and “demons” are nothing but projections of our mind.

[dsiluvu]

Hahaha... this is an interesting conversation. Obviously no Pro-Ban philosophers dare to par take of this dialogue. Well all the possible answers have been mentioned. I like BIG UNCLE's take off the hat and don on the pro-ban hat lol. It's hilarious isn't it... so easy to just think of some bs reason that sounds nothing more than another fanatical Christian fundamentalist (no offence).

Anyway good question psylotripitaka, nice seeing you peeping out of your cave! When you're in dakiniland, do not forget us

I wonder when will the world notice there is an obvious imbalance with what's going on in Tibetan Buddhism and those that's leading it. Wished the UN or someone would take notice and stop this nonsense. Wished China would just create a ruling where everyone must be pro Dorje Shugden... that would give the pro-ban people a heart attack!

[icy]

Hahaha... this is an interesting conversation. Obviously no Pro-Ban philosophers dare to par take of this dialogue. Well all the possible answers have been mentioned. I like BIG UNCLE's take off the hat and don on the pro-ban hat lol. It's hilarious isn't it... so easy to just think of some bs reason that sounds nothing more than another fanatical Christian fundamentalist (no offence).

Anyway good question psylotripitaka, nice seeing you peeping out of your cave! When you're in dakiniland, do not forget us

I wonder when will the world notice there is an obvious imbalance with what's going on in Tibetan Buddhism and those that's leading it. Wished the UN or someone would take notice and stop this nonsense. Wished China would just create a ruling where everyone must be pro Dorje Shugden... that would give the pro-ban people a heart attack!

DSILUVU, it isn't too far away for China creating a pro Dorje Shugden mandate.  China has been voted into the UN recently after a long and anxious wait.  For what China is she certainly could assert some power in her interest and expose CTA on their human rights violation to the detriment of the CTA and Dalai Lama.   If the ban is not called off, it will create tremendous embarrassment to the Dalai Lama and the CTA.  China is known to retaliate the Dalai Lama using whatever means possible and will certainly find this an excellent opportunity to "tic for tac" to flex her power.   

Moreover, we have seen how the Chinese has encouraged and supported Dorje Shugden practice in China.  China may institute a mandate for all Tibetans wishing to return to the autonomous region to practise Dorje Shugden before they are  issued an identity card to enjoy the privilege of being citizens.  The pro-ban people cannot escape the backlash of karma happening for sure.

[Matibhadra]

China may institute a mandate for all Tibetans wishing to return to the autonomous region to practise Dorje Shugden before they are  issued an identity card to enjoy the privilege of being citizens.

China cares very little about their citizens practicing or not Dorje Shugden. China does cares about their citizens being at the service of foreign powers, as is the case with the Dalai and the Dalaites.

[DharmaSpace]

1) How is it even possible that people who have extensive training in logic and debate do not see all the contradictions in the reasoning they use to support the ban?

2) How is it even possible for people with a good heart to perpetuate the extensive sufferings of religious and human rights abuse due to the ban?

I am going to put on my pro ban stance for now

1) (from the Dalai Lama) There is no contradiction, my guru Trijang Rinpoche has practiced for many lifetimes hence he deserved to choose on whether to carry on this practice.
2) Better they suffer an inconvenience than them suffering an eternity, lifetime after lifetime by worshipping a demon.

I wonder if CTA will take me as part of their political machinery lol.

[lotus1]

Ok, let me try to put on my pro-ban hat too:
1.   HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig. We should just follow his instruction and go all the way.
2.   HH Dalai Lama is helping us from getting more harm if we practice the spirit.

I agree with psylotripitaka that it is blind faith and no logic if we just follow and without thinking. On the other hand, I believe is it also due to laziness that lots of people although find that it is not logical at all but still lazy to check out what is the truth and just easily & blindly follow the instruction.

[Matibhadra]

1.   HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig. We should just follow his instruction and go all the way.

This one has already been answered above.

2.   HH Dalai Lama is helping us from getting more harm if we practice the spirit.

Nothing is more harmful than breaking one's guru-disciple relationship, to force others to do the same, and to cause schism within the Sangha, which are the Dalai's actions, whereby he is not qualified to help anyone.

Besides, the Dalai fully endorses and promotes the Nyingma practices of the “Kagye”, or the “Eight Sadhana Teachings”, out of which the last three are known to their own practioners as the propitiation of mundane spirits going by their expressive names, “Liberating Sorcery of Mother Deities”, “Maledictory Fierce Mantra”, and “Mundane Worship”.

Furthermore, the protector Nechung, whose practice is also endorsed and promoted by the same Dalai, is known to his own practitioners as an Iranian spirit, subdued by Padmasambhava, and who promised to do his best to destroy Buddhism as soon as he is free from his oath.

Finally, this so-called Dalai's “helping” is at best just a patronizing attitude, unheard of from the Buddha himself -- why then should one accept it from the little theocratic puppet dictator, whose salaries as paid by the Jewish speculator and convicted criminal George Soros, described as someone “obfuscating global criminal activity with the cause of "human rights”?

[dondrup]

One possible answer for both questions is out of complete fear of the powerful His Holiness Dalai Lama who is the spiritual leader as well as the political leader at the outset of the ban. Furthermore they are afraid of the repercussions from the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) if they do not follow the directives. They have every reason to be afraid. Just look at the way those ostracized Tibetans had been mistreated!

How could they not afraid when even HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche's life could be threatened?

How could they not afraid when CTA had no respect whatsoever for high Dorje Shugden lamas?

How could they not afraid because even their own government cannot protect their lives and provide safety.