Author Topic: Suffering  (Read 12411 times)

Jessie Fong

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Suffering
« on: November 13, 2013, 01:25:34 PM »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/value-of-suffering_n_4018582.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular,buddhism

"It was an incredible lesson for me that I didn't need all this stuff to be happy or to show me who I was. So now, I'm able to see what happened to me as the most defining moment in my life and the greatest gift I was ever given."
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Read the story of Hollye Dexter : fire destroyed her home and all of her possessions - read what she has to share:

Fifteen years after the tragedy, Dexter, at the encouragement of a friend, wrote about her experience in Like Wind to Wildfire. She explained that in writing her book, she realized that the fire had actually changed her life in a positive way.

"I learned that I was the luckiest person in the world, because when I was stripped of everything that I thought I was, which was my career, my clothes, my status, my social standing, my credit -- I had nothing left but the core of who I was. And I had to find out who that really was. And really, it was a tremendous gift."

Manisha Kudo

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 02:05:11 PM »
Thank you for sharing, Jessie.

We find what is most precious when we have lost the things that we think are important. Some people are attached to suffering not so much as to the thing itself. That's like stage 2 - addiction. :-[ And most people stay in the stage of addiction because of the secondary benefits they receive such as attention and they can continue being irresponsible. "I am a drunk or I am like that, I take drugs, so what?" These are very familiar lines.

In Buddhism, we are training in the art of letting go through self-transformation. By letting go of my secondary benefits, what do I gain? I need to work, I gotta be responsible and accountable. So tiring. Then, I better go back to drinking. To remove a person out of an addiction, we must prove to them that there are no longer secondary benefits in drinking.  ???

That's when religion and spirituality play an important role. The window period that we have to get a person out of an addiction is used wisely by replacing it a healthy benefit such as charity work, religious studies or a spiritual practice.   

pgdharma

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2013, 03:49:52 PM »
Human beings tend to crave for what they do not have, or to wish for their lives to be different than they are; they often fail to fully appreciate what they have until disasters strikes for them to appreciate what they have.

In Buddhism, the goal of the Buddha's teachings is not to eliminate all suffering or to create a perfect life or world, but to learn how best to deal with the suffering that is a normal part of human life. Real change and real improvement are only possible when great effort is done correctly. Buddhism is a religion of self-transformation and self-improvement, through application of continuous effort.

Matibhadra

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 05:28:13 PM »
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In Buddhism, the goal of the Buddha's teachings is not to eliminate all suffering

Could you please substantiate this view?

vajrastorm

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2013, 02:03:48 PM »
Suffering arises in us when we cling to certain perceptions and expectations. Like most of us, Hollye Dexter had thought that to be happy, she had to have possessions, like  a house, nice clothes, status , a job and the like. Happiness had come from identifying herself with the things she owned. Those were her perceptions and expectations.

Then fire struck and destroyed everything that she and her husband owned. There was nothing to cling on to. In the beginning , immediately after the tragedy struck, she was devastated. She talked about her suicidal tendencies. She had the 'poor me' thoughts and thoughts about why it had to happen to her. So  there was a period when she could not accept what had happened to her and her family.

However, she got over it. She moved away from a focus on negative thoughts to a focus on positive thoughts. Her mind transformed and she learned to accept what had happened. She went deep into herself. She faced herself and dredged out all the ugly bits and pieces. She began to shed  her old distorted perceptions and   expectations. She learnt to see the reality and the  truth. She saw how by letting go of her attachment and clinging to the trappings of wealth, status, and the like, she was able to be happy with nothing. In fact,she did not need those trappings to be happy.

It should be like that for us,at the point of death - a recognition that we own nothing , not even our body. So there will be no clinging even to the five aggregates. Then there will be no suffering.

Buddhism gives us the only method/ path to free us from all suffering and to reach complete cessation of suffering.  We cease all suffering when we have let go of all clinging.



vajrastorm

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2013, 04:22:01 AM »
If we were to realize that we own nothing and that the 'self' is not to be identified with the things that we have acquired in this life, ONLY AT THE MOMENT OF DEATH, then it will be too late. We have to realize all this much earlier, so that we can learn to let go of our clinging to the self and to all the things(including the possessions of this life) that we perceive as making up the sum total of who we are, the things that we wrongly imagine to be the sources of our happiness.

So Hollye rightly describes her traumatic experience ,of losing everything that had previously defined who she was, as "a tremendous gift". That experience forced on her an immediate realization of the truth or reality(as taught by Lord Buddha) that 'she' was not 'what she owned'. With that realization, she began her ' meaningful path of spiritual practice' of letting go of the clinging to her self and her possessions/acquisitions of this life that are the true source of suffering.

 Buddhism is such a powerful religion because it guides us to recognize that we are suffering, to determine the true causes of suffering, to be convinced that suffering can cease and to follow the true and prescribed way out of suffering . Buddhism revolves around the truths(realities) that Buddha Shakyamuni discovered on the night of His Enlightenment.

 

Tenzin K

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2013, 02:50:40 PM »
The First Noble Truth, suffering which becomes increasingly apparent as you sit here contemplating your own body and mind. Just be aware of what happens you can see that when good thoughts pass by, or physical pleasure, there's happiness, and when there's pain or negativity, there's despair. So we can see we are always habitually trying to attain, or maintain or get rid, of conditions. The Second Noble Truth is that of being aware of the arising of the three kinds of desire that we have – desire for sense pleasure, for becoming, or for getting rid of something – and how this arises according to conditions. The penetration of the Third Noble Truth is to see how that which arises has a cessation. We become aware of the cessation, the letting go, and thus develop the Fourth Noble Truth, the Truth of the Eightfold Path – right understanding, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration – in other words, the path of awareness.

To be aware we have to use skilful means, because at first we're mystified. We tend to conceive awareness and try to become aware, thinking that awareness is something we have to get or attain or try to develop; but this very intention, this very conceptualization makes us heedless! We keep trying to become mindful, rather than just being aware of the mind as it tries to become and tries to attain, following the three kinds of desire that cause us suffering.

The practice of 'letting go' is very effective for minds obsessed by compulsive thinking: you simplify your meditation practice down to just two words 'letting go' rather than try to develop this practice and then develop that; and achieve this and go into that, and understand this, and read the Suttas, and study the Abhidhamma... and then learn Pali and Sanskrit... then the Madhyamika and the Prajña Paramita... get ordinations in the Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana... write books and become a world renowned authority on Buddhism.

It's important for you to realise that none of us are helpless victims of fate – but we are as long as we remain ignorant. As long as you remain ignorant, you are a helpless victim of your ignorance. All that is ignorant is born and dies, it is bound to die – that's all, it's caught in the cycle of death and rebirth. And if you die, you will be reborn – you can count on it. And the more heedlessly you lead your life, the worse the rebirth.

So the Buddha taught a way to break the cycle, and that's through awareness, through seeing the cycle rather than being attached to it. When you let go of the cycle, then you are no longer harmed by it. So you let go of the cycle, let go of birth and death, let go of becoming. Letting go of desire is the development of the Third Noble Truth which leads to the Eightfold Path.

Manjushri

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2013, 06:35:49 PM »
Nice sharing, thank you.

It's nice to see people use their experience and turn it into something positive and overcome what you went through, learn and grow from it. Suffering is subjective, it can be the lost of someone, an end of a relationship, an illness, in this case the loss of everything, or whatever, but what is more important is how you come out of it. Although it took so long for her to overcome it and her experiences, I am glad that Hollye Dexter pulled through eventually. She had a family to focus out on, instead of focusing in too much which I think was her strength to pull her through what she went through.

In life, everything is impermanent. One minute you have it, the next minute you might have lost it. So how best to deal with situations like this? Well, Buddhism and the Dharma teaches you how to. Someone here wrote that "In Buddhism, the goal of the Buddha's teachings is not to eliminate all suffering" .. I guess what they meant is that Buddha taught so that you can eliminate or at least reduce your own perceived sufferings

Matibhadra

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2013, 10:47:31 PM »
Quote
The First Noble Truth, suffering which becomes increasingly apparent as you sit here contemplating your own body and mind. Just be aware of what happens you can see that when good thoughts pass by, or physical pleasure, there's happiness, and when there's pain or negativity, there's despair.

This may be a good start, but is far from enough. Even non-Buddhists do the same. There is a need to identify the suffering which is beyond happiness and pain, and which is the neutral, non-conceptual state, allowing for the arising of both.

For as long as such state is not identified, or is identified as some kind of “self-perfected” or even “dzogchen” state, it will not be abandoned, and suffering will never cease to arise.

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So we can see we are always habitually trying to attain, or maintain or get rid, of conditions.

Then you want to get rid of, and to attain a state free, of such habitual condition, right?

The funny thing of the proponents of “not trying to attain, maintain or get rid of conditions, just to be aware”, is that this (trying such and such) is precisely what they are doing, just that they are not aware of it!

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The Second Noble Truth is that of being aware of the arising of the three kinds of desire that we have – desire for sense pleasure, for becoming, or for getting rid of something – and how this arises according to conditions.

Since most people, including animals and so forth, lack this awareness, does this mean that they lack the second noble truth?

And since according to you they lack the origins of suffering, which is known as the second noble truth, how could they suffer at all?

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The penetration of the Third Noble Truth is to see how that which arises has a cessation.

Are you suggesting that one should attain such a condition (of seeing that “that which arises has a cessation”)?

If so, you contradict your previous statement, where you criticize the habit of “trying to attain, or maintain or get rid, of conditions”.

If not, then for you the third noble truth should not be penetrated.

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We become aware of the cessation, the letting go, and thus develop the Fourth Noble Truth,

“Letting go”? Are you trying to get rid of a condition?

“Developing”? Are you trying to develop or attain a condition?

Thus, you are trying to attain and to get rid of conditions, but obviously you are not aware of it!

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the Truth of the Eightfold Path – right understanding, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration – in other words, the path of awareness.

Awareness of what, if you obviously are not even aware that you are trying to attain something and to get rid of other things?

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The practice of 'letting go' is very effective for minds obsessed by compulsive thinking: you simplify your meditation practice down to just two words 'letting go' rather than try to develop this practice and then develop that;

While inappropriate attention (or not letting go) is a cause contributing for the arising of an afflictive mind, as masterfully explained by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in his masterpiece “Understanding the Mind”, to propose just “letting go”, or not to pay attention to anything, as a replacement for the full Buddhist path, is known as the nihilistic view of Hashang, the defeated opponent of Kamalashila in the famous Samye debate.

This view, nevertheless, did survive in Tibet, specially among Nyingmapas who, while denying the lineage of and affiliation with Hashang, for political reasons -- chosing instead their mythified version of ”Padmasambhava” as their poster child --, did maintain his view, usually in connection to their “dzogchen” theories.

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and achieve this and go into that, and understand this, and read the Suttas, and study the Abhidhamma... and then learn Pali and Sanskrit... then the Madhyamika and the Prajña Paramita... get ordinations in the Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana... write books and become a world renowned authority on Buddhism.

Then for you the purpose of listening, thinking and meditating on Buddha's teachings, and of taking vows and so forth, cannot be anything except for writing books and becoming famous, right?

Maybe you check your own motivations before projecting them wholesale on others.

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[...] you simplify your meditation practice [...] It's important for you to realise [...] As long as you remain ignorant, you are a helpless victim of your ignorance.[...] And if you die, you will be reborn – you can count on it. And the more heedlessly you lead your life, the worse the rebirth.

Funny that so many teachings only apply to “us”, not to yourself. One's wording says a lot, specially when it comes to applying Dharma to others, but not to oneself.

I believe that this is a sign that you lack trust in what you say, otherwise you would apply it to yourself as well.

As the great and glorious Pabongkha Ripoche often insisted, and the marvelous teacher Geshe Lobsang Tharchin so keenly reports, any Dharma teaching has to relate first and foremost to ourselves -- unless, of course, when one's intention is just to play the teacher, to write books, and to become famous.

Matibhadra

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2013, 11:06:54 PM »
Quote
Someone here wrote that "In Buddhism, the goal of the Buddha's teachings is not to eliminate all suffering" .. I guess what they meant is that Buddha taught so that you can eliminate or at least reduce your own perceived sufferings.

Since compassion is the essence of Buddhism, I understand that the Buddha taught so that one can eliminate one's own sufferings and also the sufferings of others.

That is, not just a few sufferings, but all sufferings, and not just all of one's own sufferings, but all the sufferings of everyone else as well.

hope rainbow

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2013, 01:42:43 PM »
Buddhist teachings teaches us to remove the causes of suffering, to be exact.

Sufferings are of a different kinds, some are gross (such as a flesh cut or a heartache), some are subtle such as the very having of the conditions to experience suffering and also the suffering that is dormant in a transitory condition between two gross sufferings.

Removing gross suffering is something that may be done in a transitory manner by medicine, by money, by the support of friends and family.
Such cannot be said of the subtler types of suffering for which only the removal of the causes is efficacious.
Thus the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Noble Truths, the causes, the possibility and the method.



Quote
Someone here wrote that "In Buddhism, the goal of the Buddha's teachings is not to eliminate all suffering" .. I guess what they meant is that Buddha taught so that you can eliminate or at least reduce your own perceived sufferings.

Since compassion is the essence of Buddhism, I understand that the Buddha taught so that one can eliminate one's own sufferings and also the sufferings of others.

That is, not just a few sufferings, but all sufferings, and not just all of one's own sufferings, but all the sufferings of everyone else as well.

Matibhadra

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2013, 03:45:16 PM »
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Buddhist teachings teaches us to remove the causes of suffering, to be exact.

Could you please explain how exactly it would be possible to remove the causes of suffering without, as a consequence, removing their effect, suffering itself?

Besides, removing the causes of suffering is not just an idle endeavor; rather, it is a method which serves a purpose, namely, the consequent removal of their effect, suffering itself.

Thus, the removal of suffering, or the achievement of happiness, is the actual goal of Buddha's teachings; removing the causes of suffering is just the method.

Therefore, may I propose that the two first noble truths (or realities), 1) suffering and 2) its causes or origins, are both to be abandoned, not only the second -- and that the abandonment of the second is just a method for the abandonment of the first.

OMB

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2013, 07:26:57 PM »
Everything in life is impermanence, we should learn to get go of our attachments which keep us in cyclic existence or samsara. It does not bring us continuous happiness but suffering.

metta girl

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 12:17:40 AM »
'When something bad happens, we have three choices. We can let it define us,let it destroy us or let it strengthen us."-......... Sometimes we have to go through some sufferings in order to gain some realisations. Since everything is impermanent ,we should always practice to let go  and not attached to all the worly things .Take the suffering and turn it into wisdom. We should choose to rise from the pain and treasure our precious life and make it more meaningful......

RedLantern

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Re: Suffering
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2013, 04:44:10 PM »
Identifying with conditional thing and the suffering that leads to one's own lack of insight into what they really are i.e. impermanent and lacking any essence.Therefore,one relate to them as permanent and having something lasting to them.Things that are pleasurable don't last-suffering! things that are painful last longer.
Developing insight into their nature helps us to relate to them for what they are.instead of otherwise.