Is there any proof that Nirvana exists?

[RedLantern]

Even though we cannot prove Nirvana exists,we have the Buddha's word that it does .He told us:
"There is an Unborn,not-become,a Not-made, a Not-become,Not-made,Not-compounded,there could be an escape from what is born,become,made,and compounded.
But since there is this Unborn,Not- become,Not-made,Not -compounded,there is an escape from what is born,
become,made and compounded."Ud, 80
We will know when we attain it.Until that time,we can still practice.

[Manjushri]

I guess that Nirvana, or the state of pure bliss/peace, does exists because everything in the scriptures and all Buddhist practices points you towards achieving that state. Why would Buddha conceptualize of Nirvana and the achievement of enlightenment, teach us and have us aspire to reach that state if it did not exist. If Nirvana did not exist then the foundation to Buddhism would be questionable because the main aspiration of all Buddhists practitioners is to achieve the state of enlightenment and bring everyone out of suffering. If you're referring to a physical heaven like Tushita, I do think places like these exists too, because these are the very places where the deities and Buddhas we take refuge in reside.

[Matibhadra]

Even though we cannot prove Nirvana exists

Before deciding whether or not we can prove that a nirvana exists, we must know the meaning of the term ”nirvana”.

”Nirvana” means both an emptiness (a so-called ”natural nirvana”), and a direct, non-conceptual knowledge of an emptiness (an actual nirvana, or a true cessation).

The reality, or existence, of an emptiness is shown in many ways, through many different reasonings. Therefore, we can prove that a nirvana, in the sense of a natural nirvana, does exist, or, which is the same, we can develop an inferential knowledge of an emptiness.

Now, an actual nirvana does not currently exist in our own mental continuum. Therefore, it would be silly to try to prove the existence of that which does not yet exist.

Still, we can prove that we can attain an actual nirvana, or that we can attain a direct, non-conceptual knowledge of an emptiness, because the inferential knowledge of an emptiness can become a direct, conceptual knowledge of such emptiness, through calm abiding, and then a direct, non-conceptual knowledge of the same emptiness, through the union of calm abiding and special insight.

Nirvana, therefore, is quite different from the monotheistic idea of a ”God”, because such imagined ”God” can be proved not to exist.

Besides, some non-Gelugpa folks in Tibet believe that a nirvana, understood as the knowledge of all phenomena, already exists in our mental continuum, just that, funny enough, and self-contradictorily, we lack such knowledge.

[eyesoftara]

There are many things that we are ignorance of and yet we think it exist. For example, the electron. We know it exist because we have electricity. We know it exist because that is the way it is use to explain "electrical" related phenomena and the atoms. Further, test and logical examinations of these phenomena tells us and "proved" that it exist. Yet no one has actually seen an electron but it must exist, otherwise we can't explain how thing works. So we can conclude that it exist because it has to exist and from the logic in the these that "benefit" from the existence of the electron.
If we take the this as an analogy, then Nirvana must exist as we can see many Gurus and High Lama displaying evidence of the existent of Nirvana although they certainly will not claim that they have achieved Nirvana. We can see this Nirvana in these Highly attained beings via they state of beings and most importantly there work and the results of these works. If we take Nirvana as the full cessation of suffering, then we can see this in this beings and we can conclude that Nirvana exists right here on our very Earth.

[gbds3jewels]

I disagree that if something cannot be proven and just cause someone said so then it has to be taken as proof. To say that we cannot prove Nirwana exists but we have Buddha word that it does is no different to saying we cannot price how the universe begun but we have the Bible saying God created us.

I think we may not have physical proof that Nirwana exist but we can still theorectically prove that it does. Similarly the greatest scientific minds like Einstien and Hawkings are theorectical physicist. They don't do physical experiments to prove a point but theories that are supported by logic.

[cookie]

Nirvana is in every moment of our daily lives, but we don't know and don't understand that. So we forget that and look for it outside of ourselves. If we really want it in this lifetime and seek for it seriously, we will get it.

If all of us here could see our mind, our lives, at this moment, we would see that they are normal (neutral state). That is Nirvana. Therefore, Nirvana is provable and touchable. The Buddha taught that the Truth is something that really exists. He saw that life has no illusion, no suffering. Illusion and suffering are not real, they are transient.

So the real and original life is pure, or in other words, man is nothing. It exists naturally. We don't have to do anything with it. Therefore, if we have found the right method, and have done it correctly, we will certainly get Nirvana automatically, without any expectation. That state of being is so pure that even though we have it, it seems like we have nothing. Everything is there, but there is nothing.
 If we are in this normal/neutral state of mind or have no greed- anger-delusion, then Nirvana is already here. It exists in human beings naturally. Everybody can find it, no need to wait for it.

[ilikeshugden]

It is like proving the existence of Heaven or Hell. There is no scientific method to prove of this existence. However, the existence of Nirvana, a state of bliss free from attachments, is proven through the many Buddhas who practiced. The Buddhas would not be giving us this information if it was pointless.

[Matibhadra]

Nirvana is in every moment of our daily lives, but we don't know and don't understand that.

Which is a proof that nirvana is not in every moment of our lives. If it were, we would ”know and understand that”.

And why? Just because an actual nirvana means full knowledge, understanding, and realization of a natural nirvana (anything's emptiness of inherent existence), which is indeed already there, but which is not an actual nirvana.

So we forget that and look for it outside of ourselves.

Which again is a proof that nirvana is not ”in every moment of our lives”.

If we really want it in this lifetime and seek for it seriously, we will get it.

Why should you be concerned with getting nirvana, if you believe that it is already in every moment of your life? It is the task of the fool to try to get what one already has.

If all of us here could see our mind, our lives, at this moment, we would see that they are normal (neutral state).

Even samsaric gods obtain a neutral state in the formless realms. This is not nirvana, and anyway not our current state in the desire realm.

That is Nirvana.

An actual nirvana, or a true cessation, is a direct, non-conceptual realization of anything's emptiness of inherent existence (or of a natural nirvana), not a mere ”neutral state”, which is just a Hindu, non-Buddhist teaching transvestite as Buddhism.

Of course, some Buddhist schools accepted the illogical, if not ridiculous, view that ”we are already fully awakened, although we still need to awaken to this fact”. This ”view” is the obsessive concern of Bönpo and Nyingma ”Dzogchen” teachings, but it is conclusively rejected by non-nonsense oriented Gelugpas.

In the West, this view is most favored by Jewish and Judaizing pseudo-Buddhist propagandizers, because it opens the door to the acceptance of an inherently existent original self-perfected state, to be equated with the presence of ”God” (yes, the envious, psychotic, absolutistic Jewish ethnic ”god”) within human beings.

This, by the way, is one special reason why such Judaizing pseudo-Buddhist ideologists strongly favor the above mentioned Dzogchen delirious fantasies, and systematically try to revile Gelugpa teachings as ”fundamentalistic”, ”ultra-orthodox” ”merely intellectual”, and other stupid labels.

Therefore, Nirvana is provable and touchable.

Actually, an actual nirvana is proving and touching a natural nirvana, or an emptiness (although just in a metaphoric way, since an emptiness is not a sensorial object).

The Buddha taught that the Truth is something that really exists. He saw that life has no illusion, no suffering. Illusion and suffering are not real, they are transient.

If life had no illusion and no suffering, there would be no need for the Buddha to teach in the first place.

If illusion did not exist, there would be no need to defeat illusion, and such silly theories about the non-existence of illusion would also be unnecessary.

Besides, illusion and suffering are no less real just because they are transient. Being transient is itself a sign of being real.

So the real and original life is pure, or in other words, man is nothing.

This stinks to the Jewish ”paradise” with Adam and Eve ”pure and innocent”. But unsurprisingly it is also the Dzogchen non-Buddhist theory of ”original purity”. No wonder that Judaizing pseudo-Buddhist propagandizers love such Dzogchen nonsense, and detest the Gelugpa non-nonsense rejection thereof.

The anti-humanistic bias of such theory (”man is nothing”) is also evident. Man is nothing and the ”original purity” (be it the Jewish monomaniac ”God” or the Bönpo and Nyingma ”primordial buddha”, the all-creator Samantabhadra) is everything. Humans are insignificant, less than insects, therefore should blindly believe and obey whatever the priestly caste tells them.
 
Also, this view that ”man is nothing” is outrightly nihilistic -- the very negation of Buddhism.

It exists naturally. We don't have to do anything with it.

Which is the evil nihilistic theory of the Chinese Ch'an monk Ha-shang, which denies cause and effect, and which was fully adopted in Tibet by Nyingmapas, who nevertheless deny their own root teacher, Ha-shang, and ascribe the theory to a fantasized Padmasambhava, conveniently reinvented centuries after the fact by the ”terma” literature (because Indian rather than Chinese roots were seen as respectable).

Therefore, if we have found the right method,

Why and what for right or wrong ”method”, if according to you we don't have to do anything and nirvana is already present in our lives? Only a fool would want a ”method” to get what he or she already has.

and have done it correctly,

Done nothing ”correctly”, that's what you mean, right?

we will certainly get Nirvana automatically,

The view that liberation and enlightenment are obtained ”automatically”, or by themselves, or doing nothing, without any need to create the causes producing such effects, is again the nihilistic view of Ha-shang, enshrined by Bönpo and Nyingma ”Dzogchen” with its pompous, but hollow, assumption of being ”beyond cause and effect”.

without any expectation.

Actually, what you wrote above implies not only an expectation, but also a false expectation, which is the false expectation of achieving liberation and enlightenment ”automatically”, without effort, without relying on cause and effect, without relying on dependent arising, without relying on the steps of the path, and without relying on the lamrim.

That state of being is so pure that even though we have it, it seems like we have nothing.

Like the emperor without clothes. It seemed that he had nothing, and indeed he had nothing.

This is the trick: to make foolish people believe in something contrary to reason and to experience, be it the Jewish ”God”, or the Nyingma ”primordial purity”, or the emperor's clothes, or the relativity theory, claiming that the nonsense is ”very subtle”, and thus that only the ”very intelligent” can see it.

Buddhism is not about promoting nonsensical, self-contradictory theories for the sake of enslaving and exploiting the gullible, but, rather the opposite, about understanding reality, and achieving the freedom of liberation and enlightenment for oneself and others.

Everything is there, but there is nothing.

Yes, yes, like the clothes of the emperor.

If we are in this normal/neutral state of mind or have no greed- anger-delusion, then Nirvana is already here.

Nyingma literature talks about a ”natural” state of mind. Some people, wanting to promote Nyingma tenets in disguise, but lacking the honesty to assume their intention, will talk about a ”normal/neutral” state of mind. In the same way, Dzogchenpas promote the Ha-shang nihilistic view, but lack the honesty to recognize their actual roots.

A ”neutral” state of mind is not necessarily nirvana, because gods of the formless realm have a neutral state of mind, but not nirvana. Dzogchen and Ha-shang's ”non-conceptuality” is not better than this, as it lacks the actual antidote to greed, anger and delusion, which is the mere negation of an imagined inherent existence which does not assert anything else instead.

Nirvana is not ”normal” in the sense of ”usual” or ”average”, because people wandering in samsara are always befuddled by delusion and so forth. And your ”normality”, which supposedly is already and naturally present, is not nirvana, because nirvana, a true cessation, is something to be achieved in dependence of its causes, the true paths.

Finally, a state of mind which is free from delusion, hatred, and ignorance, which is indeed a nirvana, is not ”already there”, otherwise there would be no delusion, hatred, and ignorance to be free of; there would be no need fo the Buddha to teach; there would be no need for the learners to learn; and there would not even be a need for the proponents of such a ridiculous, self-contradictory theory to propound it.

It exists in human beings naturally.

If nirvana is a state of mind which exists naturally, then it does not depend on causes and conditions, does not depend on parts, and does not depend even on a designation, which is tantamount to say that your ”nirvana” inherently or intrinsically exists, exists by itself, falls on the extreme of existence, contradicts reason, and is the very opposite of the nirvana taught by the Buddha.

Everybody can find it,

Since such a ”nirvana” does not and cannot exist, it cannot be found either.

However, the imagination of such a non-existent, merely imagined nirvana can be found, in the mind of those who give in to Dzogchen oriented nonsensical fantasies.

no need to wait for it.

With this one I have to agree. Where is the need to wait for what does not and cannot exist?

[kris]

I would supposed the Nirvana in this context is the "place" we may be able to go after we passed away?

If want to proof certain thing, we will find evidence to proof it. Using the "world is flat" as an example, I am sure many people is able to find proof that the world is flat.

On the other hand, there are many things in this life we cannot prove, but we still believe in them as if it is ultimate truth.

Then, there are many cases where we can't proof. For example, any proofs of UFO? Any proofs of heaven and hell?

I think what is important is to be a good person, benefit others, and bring happiness to others. We were told that if we become a better person and benefit many, we have a chance to goo Nirvana. Even if Nirvana does not exist and we are all cheated by the Buddha, don't we all feel satisfied and happy by bringing happiness to others?

[vajrastorm]

Nirvana is described as a state that exists by Lord Buddha, but is beyond concepts.

'Nirvana is true peace' is the fourth seal of Buddhism.  This 'peace' is the 'true cessation of suffering'.It is logical that when we have realized 'true cessation', we will have ceased all suffering and its causes. So 'true peace' is a state where we will be free of all suffering and its causes.
 
HH Dalai Lama in  "Transforming the Mind" says that the Buddhist scriptures presents 4 types of Nirvana .
There is 'natural nirvana' , which refers to emptiness. There is a nirvana 'with residue'. which generally refers to the 'continued physical existence of the individual'(either to the 'five aggregates'  or the 'residue of dualistic perceptions'). Then there is the nirvana 'without residue'; and , finally, 'non-abiding nirvana'.

[Matibhadra]

HH Dalai Lama in  "Transforming the Mind" says that the Buddhist scriptures presents 4 types of Nirvana .
There is 'natural nirvana' , which refers to emptiness. There is a nirvana 'with residue'. which generally refers to the 'continued physical existence of the individual'(either to the 'five aggregates'  or the 'residue of dualistic perceptions'). Then there is the nirvana 'without residue'; and , finally, 'non-abiding nirvana'.

The first type is emptiness, the last three types are realizations of emptiness (of an arhat before death, after death, and of a buddha).

Therefore, these four types of nirvana boil down to two: emptiness and realization of emptiness.

[Matibhadra]

Even if Nirvana does not exist and we are all cheated by the Buddha, don't we all feel satisfied and happy by bringing happiness to others?

Nirvana is just a kind of happiness, an undecaying happiness, which, just like any other happiness, mundane or supramundane, is nothing but the happy result of bringing happiness to others.

And why is this happiness undecaying? Because it is the direct, non-conceptual realization of emptiness, which is uncompounded, not dependent on causes and parts, and thus undecaying itself.

Still, a nirvana is dependent on the mere designation ”nirvana”, and therefore empty of inherent existence, which is another source of happiness, peace, and relief for all sentient beings.