Dalai Lama OK with Gay Marriage

[WisdomBeing]

What i find completely contradictory about the Dalai Lama's current stance on homosexuality is that it is sexual misconduct for Buddhists but not for non-believers? How can it be ok for non-buddhists but NOT ok for Buddhists?! Seems like a weak rule to me! All other Buddhist tenets like not stealing, not killing etc are universal values - they incur bad karma whether you are buddhist or not. But if you are a non-Buddhist homosexual it is okay??

Is the Dalai Lama simply trying to curry favour with more sexually open western society? In case Boy George decides not to be Buddhist anymore?

Dalai Lama - please don't be so contradictory. Otherwise people might think your stance on Dorje Shugden is also wishy washy!

[Klein]

I have heard a Lama gave a teaching on related matters:

1) Regardless marriage or relationship, the problem is not about the other person is same sex or different sex. Instead, the problem is attachment to the relationship or the person. If you are very attached to the other person, doesn't matter if it is different or same sex, it will affect our spiritual advancement. From this, I can see that both Lamas do not object same sex marriage, because the problem is not about same sex or not, but the attachment itself.

2) It was said in the tantra that when male and female genitalia in contact, they create a good energy flow. But when genitalia are in the other places, the energy does not flow and eventually, it may cause anger in long run (it is not guarantee it will cause anger though). So it is advised not engage in not "normal" sex.

I have heard of point 2. As my guru says, it's not a sin per se but that it has a possibility of disturbing our energies. So it's up to us to decide. Just like drinking alcohol. The drink is not a sin per se, but because it can influence our mind due to the chemicals. The actions we carry out under the influence of alcohol may create more negative karma for us.

Any type of desire is an attachment which further enhances our self cherishing mind or ego. Whether it's desire for food, our outer appearance, and so on, they are various forms of desire. As the Dalai Lama stated, as long as there is no harm to the person involved in the sexual activity, it is still ok.

I believe that eating meat is worse than having different sexual preferences because animals are killed to nourish our bodies and in most cases, to fulfill our taste buds. Most of us can survive without meat. If we want world peace and happiness, why do we create the karma to be further away from peace and happiness by supporting the killing of animals? No beings should suffer.

[lightning]

Let me summarize what I see so far:
So far I have only seen one reply on what is from Lama's view on homosexual which is quite align to what my Guru have said. I hope to see more Dharma Frds giving more inputs from their Lama or Gurus.
As for other Buddhism sects, I personally felt that the authentic underlying meaning behind has lose touch on the Buddha's teaching. Tibetan Buddhism system has a more well preserved teaching than other Buddhist sects because of the oral transmission are almost unbroken generations after generations especially Gelugpa Sect. Because of these lineage oral transmissions, attainment of Supra-mundane achievement is possible. I do not agree on certain Buddhist masters holding wedding for gays or lesbians and fighting for their rights, as it could be possible that sexual misconduct between homosexual has more negative karma than those between man and women.
I do not believe that we should bend the teachings set by Buddha 2500 years ago just to please the society to gain more financial support and it will make the Dharma more degenerate. On one story, Buddha scolded one monk that the latter see Buddha equal to not seeing Himself, because he violated vows of drinking unfiltered water with germs, while the other died of thirst maintaining his vow on journey to pay visit to Buddha.
I felt that Prominent figure like Dalai Lama made things worse by declaring he is alright with Gays/ Lesbians marriage, which made people think that it is okay to engage same sex sexual activities. Especially the lay Buddhists should draw a line on NOT committing sexual misconduct after they have taken that particular vow. Such prominent figures like HHDL will carry weight on their words which will influence more people at larger scale and with greater impact. BTW,HHDL display great inconsistency and what kind of impression he gave to the public on accepting a infamous Japanese cult leader as student for his empowerment session?
I felt that Wisdom being is right about sexual misconduct applies to Non Buddhists as well, whether they like it or not because seeds of karma is planted dependent on choices made.
As for meat eating, during Buddha's time, He had preached pure meat under 5 conditions to be taken to allow to be taken to avoid negative karma. If a person is pre-taking meat under this 5 conditions, how could we say that it is worse than having sexual misconduct? As long as we are not the direct cause to kill the animal for consumption and bought it under the 5 conditions and are we saying that Buddha is wrong that meat eating even if it is eaten under 5 conditions???
Especially in HYT, meat is transformed into 5 meat and 5 nectar as same as nature of 5 directional Buddhas and Consorts, taking it become merit instead of accumulating negative karma. Even there is Buddhism mantra for meat consumption for both Mahayana and Theravada tradition to bless the meat before consumption. With these, it give more assurance to eat meat.
Finally, I hope to see more people give answers from their Guru or Lamas.

[gbds3jewels]

I think Buddhism is not technically against anything per say. It does not advocate sex, relationship or marriage heterosexual or homosexual simply because Buddha taught that desires are obstacles. Buddhism is the most accepting religion in my opinion when it comes to the issue of one sexuality because the mind is genderless. Going with the belief of reincarnation most of us have been either male or female or gay probably countless lifetimes. Homosexuality in itself is nothing to Buddhism, that's what I think. But the lifestyle is not encouraged due to the many downfalls and obstacles it can create in ones life and pain to those around us. I have nothing against homosexuality but I don't necessarily advocate gay marriage but then again I generally don't believe in marriage full stop.

[Big Uncle]

Dear Big Uncle,
If you want to stick to Dalai Lama's answer is fine with me, but sometimes I find his answers can be as flippant like flip flop pan cake. As an admin, please get answers from valid source before sticking to some advice from HHDL, if not your answers may end up misleading others. I prefer to stick to my own root Guru's advice and I advice likewise for the rest of us

Dear lightning,
I have my own advice from my lama and its basically the same as the Dalai Lama's stance on homosexuality. What you are talking about is Tantric consort practice and that is done with the union of male and female genitalia. In the Gelug, that is NOT done physically but visualized and this is perfectly exemplified by Lama Tsongkhapa, who achieved that union in the bardo without the aid of any consort. It is NOT recommended to engage in consort practice unless you yourself are highly attained and have specific instructions from a qualified Guru.

When it comes to heterosexuality and homosexuality, there is no difference. Both have their own qualities that leads one deeper into Samsara. My Guru never said it is NOT sexual misconduct to engage in homosexual relationship. That is a serious allegation from your Guru as it makes heterosexual relationship valid and I don't see why heterosexual relationships are valid in the Dharma from this viewpoint. You are saying that homosexuals have to either abandon their sexual urges/relationships when taking on taking certain vows or not get deeper into Dharma. On the other hand, heterosexual partners need not do abandon their sexual urges/relationships. Why? Please explain this inequality or seek an explanation. Your line of thought encourages discrimination.

[Big Uncle]

Especially in HYT, meat is transformed into 5 meat and 5 nectar as same as nature of 5 directional Buddhas and Consorts, taking it become merit instead of accumulating negative karma. Even there is Buddhism mantra for meat consumption for both Mahayana and Theravada tradition to bless the meat before consumption. With these, it give more assurance to eat meat.
Finally, I hope to see more people give answers from their Guru or Lamas.

I am sorry, I do not agree with this and this what I was explained...

In HYT, meat is partaken during Tsog for its symbolism in relations to Tantra. It is not an excuse to say meat-eating is permitted. The mantras are meant to bless the meat/animal but that does not mean you have not committed negative karma when consuming the meat. In consuming meat, you have become part of the cause that the animal died. Karma is blind to all our Dharmic reasonings.

[lightning]

Dear Big Uncle,
If you want to stick to Dalai Lama's answer is fine with me, but sometimes I find his answers can be as flippant like flip flop pan cake. As an admin, please get answers from valid source before sticking to some advice from HHDL, if not your answers may end up misleading others. I prefer to stick to my own root Guru's advice and I advice likewise for the rest of us

Dear lightning,
I have my own advice from my lama and its basically the same as the Dalai Lama's stance on homosexuality. What you are talking about is Tantric consort practice and that is done with the union of male and female genitalia. In the Gelug, that is NOT done physically but visualized and this is perfectly exemplified by Lama Tsongkhapa, who achieved that union in the bardo without the aid of any consort. It is NOT recommended to engage in consort practice unless you yourself are highly attained and have specific instructions from a qualified Guru.

When it comes to heterosexuality and homosexuality, there is no difference. Both have their own qualities that leads one deeper into Samsara. My Guru never said it is NOT sexual misconduct to engage in homosexual relationship. That is a serious allegation from your Guru as it makes heterosexual relationship valid and I don't see why heterosexual relationships are valid in the Dharma from this viewpoint. You are saying that homosexuals have to either abandon their sexual urges/relationships when taking on taking certain vows or not get deeper into Dharma. On the other hand, heterosexual partners need not do abandon their sexual urges/relationships. Why? Please explain this inequality or seek an explanation. Your line of thought encourages discrimination.

Dear Big Uncle,

Thanks for finding out from your Guru and providing answers from your side. The purpose of this debate is to clarify the issues and deliver the correct message to readers NOT to discriminate anyone. It is a standard procedure for a Guru to explain on 5 primary precepts during empowerment session which include No Killing, No Stealing, No lying, No sexual misconduct and No Alcohol drinking. As for sexual misconduct, I am very sure that most of the lamas will mentioned that anal sex, oral sex are forbidden and are considered as sexual misconduct. Homosexual activities of course consist of anal and oral sex. Hence, could you kindly verify with your Guru on why anal sex and oral sex is NOT consider sexual misconduct?

Referring to one of the encounter with HHDL: http://shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=9070
Quote:" ...Relying on a detailed text from the fifteenth-century Tibetan scholar Tsongkhapa, His Holiness explained what the work has to say about “sexual misconduct”—the type of sex that, as one of the ten nonvirtues, is considered a moral evil. Among other things, Tsongkhapa’s formulation prohibits sex between men, solitary masturbation, oral or anal intercourse, and even sex during daylight. On the other hand, it does not prohibit sex between women, or men employing the services of prostitutes, and it permits heterosexual men up to five orgasms per night. Lest it be thought that this delineation of the boundaries between permissible and illicit sex is idiosyncratic to Tsongkhapa, I should point out that similar formulations are found in important Tibetan texts written before and after him, including works by Gampopa and Dza Patrul. More important, every element in Tsongkhapa’s formulation has a basis in the Indian Buddhist sources.
Having explained Tsongkhapa’s text, His Holiness went on to speak about “the possibility of understanding these precepts in the context of time, culture, and society… If homosexuality is part of accepted norms [today], it is possible that it may be acceptable … However, no single person or teacher can redefine precepts. I do not have the authority to redefine these precepts since no one can make a unilateral decision or issue a decree…"

As mentioned even in Je Tsong Kha Pa work, sexual misconduct is further clarified and HHDL also admit that He cannot redefined precepts and He has no authority to do so, He is seemingly inconsistent with his words in acceptance and was caught flippant in his stand. I Do Not agree that rules should be bend to suit the society, but rather the devotees and disciples should follow the Dharma set by the Enlightened ones for their own benefits.

Lastly, you mentioned that My Guru is making allegation? How do we know that you whether you are providing correct answers on homosexual sex is not sexual misconduct? If you wish to know my Guru's name or doubt his qualification, you could PM me for it

 It is late now for my time and I will come back on the meat consuming versus vegetarian

[Positive Change]

A recent interview on Larry King which clearly illustrates HH The Dalai Lama's view... simple. profound yet keeping to the very principles of Buddhism!

Love it!

http://youtu.be/pJVvVSr8E2M
	Small | Large

[Big Uncle]

Dear Big Uncle,
If you want to stick to Dalai Lama's answer is fine with me, but sometimes I find his answers can be as flippant like flip flop pan cake. As an admin, please get answers from valid source before sticking to some advice from HHDL, if not your answers may end up misleading others. I prefer to stick to my own root Guru's advice and I advice likewise for the rest of us

Dear lightning,
I have my own advice from my lama and its basically the same as the Dalai Lama's stance on homosexuality. What you are talking about is Tantric consort practice and that is done with the union of male and female genitalia. In the Gelug, that is NOT done physically but visualized and this is perfectly exemplified by Lama Tsongkhapa, who achieved that union in the bardo without the aid of any consort. It is NOT recommended to engage in consort practice unless you yourself are highly attained and have specific instructions from a qualified Guru.

When it comes to heterosexuality and homosexuality, there is no difference. Both have their own qualities that leads one deeper into Samsara. My Guru never said it is NOT sexual misconduct to engage in homosexual relationship. That is a serious allegation from your Guru as it makes heterosexual relationship valid and I don't see why heterosexual relationships are valid in the Dharma from this viewpoint. You are saying that homosexuals have to either abandon their sexual urges/relationships when taking on taking certain vows or not get deeper into Dharma. On the other hand, heterosexual partners need not do abandon their sexual urges/relationships. Why? Please explain this inequality or seek an explanation. Your line of thought encourages discrimination.

Dear Big Uncle,

Thanks for finding out from your Guru and providing answers from your side. The purpose of this debate is to clarify the issues and deliver the correct message to readers NOT to discriminate anyone. It is a standard procedure for a Guru to explain on 5 primary precepts during empowerment session which include No Killing, No Stealing, No lying, No sexual misconduct and No Alcohol drinking. As for sexual misconduct, I am very sure that most of the lamas will mentioned that anal sex, oral sex are forbidden and are considered as sexual misconduct. Homosexual activities of course consist of anal and oral sex. Hence, could you kindly verify with your Guru on why anal sex and oral sex is NOT consider sexual misconduct?

Referring to one of the encounter with HHDL: http://shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=9070
Quote:" ...Relying on a detailed text from the fifteenth-century Tibetan scholar Tsongkhapa, His Holiness explained what the work has to say about “sexual misconduct”—the type of sex that, as one of the ten nonvirtues, is considered a moral evil. Among other things, Tsongkhapa’s formulation prohibits sex between men, solitary masturbation, oral or anal intercourse, and even sex during daylight. On the other hand, it does not prohibit sex between women, or men employing the services of prostitutes, and it permits heterosexual men up to five orgasms per night. Lest it be thought that this delineation of the boundaries between permissible and illicit sex is idiosyncratic to Tsongkhapa, I should point out that similar formulations are found in important Tibetan texts written before and after him, including works by Gampopa and Dza Patrul. More important, every element in Tsongkhapa’s formulation has a basis in the Indian Buddhist sources.
Having explained Tsongkhapa’s text, His Holiness went on to speak about “the possibility of understanding these precepts in the context of time, culture, and society… If homosexuality is part of accepted norms [today], it is possible that it may be acceptable … However, no single person or teacher can redefine precepts. I do not have the authority to redefine these precepts since no one can make a unilateral decision or issue a decree…"

As mentioned even in Je Tsong Kha Pa work, sexual misconduct is further clarified and HHDL also admit that He cannot redefined precepts and He has no authority to do so, He is seemingly inconsistent with his words in acceptance and was caught flippant in his stand. I Do Not agree that rules should be bend to suit the society, but rather the devotees and disciples should follow the Dharma set by the Enlightened ones for their own benefits.

Lastly, you mentioned that My Guru is making allegation? How do we know that you whether you are providing correct answers on homosexual sex is not sexual misconduct? If you wish to know my Guru's name or doubt his qualification, you could PM me for it

 It is late now for my time and I will come back on the meat consuming versus vegetarian

Thank you for your wonderful quote. Since you quote Jamgon Je Tsongkhapa, I cannot refute that. However, I do feel in this case that the Dalai Lama is not being flippant but he is being skilful with his audience. Presenting homosexuality as sexual misconduct to modern people just because it was mentioned in ancient scriptures is not skilful and runs the danger of turning people away from the Dharma.

I believe my lama has taken this stance because at our level of practice, sexuality is not the major hindrance to practice but our general attachment to sexuality. My lama is not making an allegation but expanding on his skilful understanding of his students mind. What's important is the actual transformation of the mind instead of harping on minor issues of the general issues of sexual misconduct. Some lamas promote protector practices like Dorje Shugden to everyone but other lamas prefer the traditional approach of scriptural studies and developing a relationship with the yidam and do not ever encourage any protector practice. I don't think we can be so quick to judge the lama on their manner of approach. Don't you think?

PS - Looking forward to your reply on meat eating...

[DS Star]

A recent interview on Larry King which clearly illustrates HH The Dalai Lama's view... simple. profound yet keeping to the very principles of Buddhism!

Love it!

http://youtu.be/pJVvVSr8E2M

Yes that is right. Why complicated the matter?

It is none of our business who wants to marry who as long as there is no violent.

Rape is rape, it is an violent act, both on same gender or not... it is sexual-misconduct.

Marriage is marriage, same gender or not, it will lead to attachment... thus harder to practice renunciation for non-attained people.

Period.

[brian]

for me, why not? It doesn't mean that a couple who fell in love with each other have to be apart because it is against their racial custom. It is acceptable as long as they are very sure what they are doing. 

[Big Uncle]

Actually, in hindsight, I would have to dispute what was even said by Lama Tsongkhapa and the great pandits on this matter of sexual misconduct because I do feel that the views were formed based on social acceptance of the time.

I draw parallels with how women and the ordained female Sangha had been viewed throughout the history of Buddhism in India and Tibet. Nuns although many of whom achieved great heights of spiritual attainments had to take on more vows and were subservient to the male Sangha. This is codified in the Vinaya and even the Indian pandits like Nagarjuna and all viewed women rather negatively. This does not mean women are inferior to men although it is constitutionalised within Buddhism as such. This was formed due to societal norms of the past. The same goes with homosexuality, which was definitely not something that easy accepted within mainstream society.

Therefore, the definition of sexual misconduct is colored by the society of the time and may not be what ultimately is truly a sexual misconduct in karmic terms.

[rossoneri]

None of us chose to be who we are today, it is due to our own doing from the past and attachments which eventually we became who we are today. Buddhism in particular should understand this behaviour and be more acceptive in this issue. So, if HHTDL is OK with Gay Marriage i am not surprised but in any case people still think and judge and have their own point of view.