How does Dorje Shugden harm Tibetan independence?

[Big Uncle]

I often read that people would bring up the point that Dorje Shugden harms the Tibetan cause. But how does that happen? From very convincing evidence of signed affidavits and eyewitness accounts on this website, Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama's life!

He formed Chushi Gangdruk, the Khampa warriors that were trained specifically to escort the Dalai Lama out of Tibet. He also told the Dalai Lama in trance when it was time to escape and the escape route as well. Dorje Shugden also was recorded to have prescribed pujas in the earlier days of the 13th Dalai Lama to fend off the impending Chinese invasion to a latter time.

Has anyone read or hear what the rhetoric is? How does Dorje Shugden harm Tibetan independence? The logic escapes me...

[icy]

Tibet is ruled under the Sovereignty of China since the time of the Great Fifth.   Historically Tibet has never been an independent state.  The following historical points clarify the true state of affairs:

"After the Great Fifth’s two-month visit, the emperor also granted him an honorific title, a golden certificate of appointment and a golden seal of authority as well as expensive gifts. This incident set a precedent for future Dalai Lamas to officially receive their post from the imperial court.

It is interesting that this painting of the 5th Dalai Lama and the Emperor Shunzhi are found not on the walls of Chinese palaces, but in the Dalai Lama’s Potala Palace in Lhasa, Tibet.

Do note that the Chinese emperor is clearly depicted to be sitting higher than the Dalai Lama – a sign of the deference and respect which the Tibetans paid to the Chinese royalty."

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/emperors-of-china/


Meeting Between Emperor Shunzhi and the Great Fifth Dalai Lama

This picture is a clear illustration that Tibet is under the Sovereignty of China from historical time.  If this is not so, the level of seating depicted on the painting would be on the same level of one Emperor with another Emperor of a different country.  Why would the 5th Dalai Lama be seated on a lower level to the Chinese Emperor?  This is recorded through the painting by Tibetans themselves and is placed on the wall of Potala.  Besides the Dalai Lama has to receive the decree from the Chinese imperial court for his official appointment as the Dalai Lama. 

Why would China grant independence to Tibet when Tibet has always been under Chinese rule since ancient time?  Morever, China has since injected huge sum of money into modernising Tibet with education prospects, infrastructure, buildings and providing job opportunities to upgrade Tibet and Tibetans.  Tibetans cannot deny but have to admit that they will not be able to accomplish in-so-far as what the Chinese have done for them.  China has since been liberal in granting religious freedom in Tibet with co-operation from Tibetans.   Ironically, Tibetans in Tibet are enjoying religious freedom far more than their counter parts in exile.   

In reality, Lord Dorje Shugden helped Tibet to preserve the Dalai Lama and its rich cultural heritage by planning, advising and escorting the l4th Dalai Lama out of danger to freedom.

Claiming the practice of Shugden harms the independence of Tibet is without any substance is absurd.  It is a propaganda to divert the focus on their failure in achieving independence for Tibet since their exile in 1959.   

[Big Uncle]

Dear Icy,
Thank you for your historical interpretation of the Fifth Dalai Lama's visit. However, I beg to differ. The seating arrangement is typical of the Chinese imperial arrogance. It is meant to define who is the superior state but it does not mean that Chinese rule Tibet. Tibetan scholars would vehemently defy that interpretation because Chinese imperial regime do not rule Tibet as the country is ruled by the Tibetan government of the Gaden Podrang (Dalai Lama's office) and the Kashag ministers.

But anyway, this does not really explain my question as I am curious what is the line of reasoning the Tibetans have for claiming that Dorje Shugden harms Tibetan independence. I just don't get it and I am not surprise that the Dalai Lama does not use that on his international Western audience when he talks about the justifications of the Shugden ban.

[lotus1]

I also do not get how Dorje Shugden can harm Tibetan independence. For me, to be an independent country, the people should be all united and the government body should be able to rule the country well in terms of social, politic, economy, etc.
The ban of Dorje Shugden has caused schism to the Tibetan community and basic human rights such as social, education, medical, etc are denied for the Dorje Shugden practitioners. In order to be an independence, firstly the CTA should lift the bans and unite all the Tibetan. Then, they should also work on the social, economy, etc aspects of the country.  It is worrying to see if a country is ruled by incompetent people. http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-people-must-shoulder-the-blame-for-the-failure-of-the-tibetan-cause/ and http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-ghost-of-tibetan-democracy/
Therefore, in order to be independence, the CTA should do their work well to be like a good government rather than just putting the blame on Dorje Shugden.

[icy]

You are right Big Uncle that the Gaden Podrang and the Kashag Ministers formed the government for ancient Tibet which is similar to what Hongkong governance is in China today.  However, the appointment of Dalai Lamas had the precedent decreed by Chinese emperors.  Of course, Tibetan scholars deny the sovereignty  vehemently due to patriotism to their country.

But anyway, this does not really explain my question as I am curious what is the line of reasoning the Tibetans have for claiming that Dorje Shugden harms Tibetan independence. I just don't get it and I am not surprise that the Dalai Lama does not use that on his international Western audience when he talks about the justifications of the Shugden ban.

You will not have any satisfactory answer to your question because there is no logic behind this claim and it cannot be substantiated.   It is a propaganda to Tibetans to stir up most efficaciously hatred and fear on Shugden practice to divert their failures.  The Dalai Lama knows fully well that every Tibetan love to return to their homeland free from Chinese rule and this is in their inner most desire entranced for over 50 long years.  However, this claim is absurdity if used on Western audience.

[dondrup]

How does practising Dorje Shugden harm the independence of Tibet? His Holiness Dalai Lama and the opponents to Dorje Shugden cannot and will never be able to prove this! It is utterly impossible to do it.
 
In my opinion, it is the ban on Dorje Shugden that harms Tibetan Independence!
 
Since the outset, the ban has divided the Tibetans and weakened their unity. Instead of working towards their independence, Central Tibetan Administration had diverted all their energy towards enforcing the ban on Dorje Shugden instead! What is the point of achieving independence when CTA is only interested to bring suffering and more suffering to the Tibetans in exile particularly those who practise Dorje Shugden. 
 
Who would be passionate about Tibetan Independence when the basic needs i.e. human rights, religious freedom, security and safety are their primary concerns?  When these essential needs are not provided, Tibetans will be least interested with independence of Tibet.

[yontenjamyang]

No Buddha or spirit can harm anyone or any country. All results, individual or collective are ripening of karma. So for sure the Dorje Shugden can never harm the independence of Tibet. To say Dorje Shugden is a Chinese spirit that harms Tibet's independence is like saying he can magically defy karma so that Tibet cannot be independent.

Anyhow, Tibet's independence is a perceived results of Tibetans. That perception is based on the delusions of Tibetans that think if Tibet is independent, then things will be fine. That perception is clearly deluded. All beings want certain perceive results thinking that if that result is achieved, things will be fine. But we know that is never the case. For the existence is sure to bring suffering.

So, Dorje Shugden does not harm Tibet independence. Tibetans' karma is the cause of Tibet non independence.

[Gabby Potter]

I find this statement very illogical and unnecessary, why would Lord Dorje Shudgen harm the Tibetan independence? How?! Some people really amaze me with their weird statements. ' If ' He really is a Demon which He's not, he is then formless, what does a formless being get out of harming others? Lord Dorje Shugden is proven to be an enlightened Buddha, an emanation of Manjushri, I will always believe He is because I myself have witnessed some miraculous happenings.

[prodorjeshugden]

It is indeed really confusing how the Dalai Lama can call a protector who saved his life a demon.
It is due to Dorje Shugdens instructions that the Dalai Lama fled Tibet. Had the Dalai Lama listened to Nechungs instructions,he wouldn't be alive today. Nechungs instructions were just the opposite of what Dorje Shugden said, Nechung said the Lotus holder should remain in Tibet, but one of the Dalai Lamas assistants wasn't too sure about that thus the assistant told the Dalai Lama to consult Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden told the Dalai Lama to flee Tibet, he even gave instructions on the escape route and how to escape.
After seeing that Dorje Shugden had save the Dalai lamas life, how could he be so ungrateful?

So people say that Dorje Shugden prevents Tibet from gaining independence, but it has never occurred to them that it was their negative karma coming back at them...

I believe that the ban is just a way of cloaking the fact that their negative karma is really heavy, why? because they have someone to blame.

One day the world will know the real reason why the ban was implemented and the world will know just how wrong the CTA was.

[grandmapele]

Thank you, Icy for your sharing. That was an eye opener for me. This website is truly a treasure trove of information. I read somewhere that the title of the Dalai Lama was conferred by the Mongolians during the 3rd Dalai Lama's era.

"Gendun Drup (1391-1474) was the ordination name of the monk who came to be known as the 'First Dalai Lama', but only from 104 years after he died." -
"As proposed by Sonam Gyatso, Altan Khan sponsored the building of Thegchen Chonkhor Monastery at the site of Sonam Gyatso's open-air teachings given to the whole Mongol population. He also called Sonam Gyatso "Dalai", Mongolian for 'Gyatso' (Ocean).[103]

The name "Dalai Lama", by which the lineage later became known throughout the non-Tibetan world, was thus established and it was applied to the first two incarnations retrospectively.[36]"

-extract from Dalai Lama-Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama


The article in Wikipedia is really interestingly.

[vajrastorm]

Yes, how does Dorje Shugden harm the Tibetan cause for independence?

In the first place, HH Dalai Lama is an emanation of Chenrezig, the Guardian-Protector of Buddhism in Tibet, who first emanated as Songtsen Gampo, the Bodhisattva King, who united all of Tibet under his rule, and in the resultant climate of political stability, started to work to bring Buddhism surely and steadily to Tibet. AS Chenrezig, how could it be possible for the Dalai Lama to allow a spirit to bring harm to the cause of Tibet's Independence? ANYWAY, WE KNOW WITHOUT THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT THERE IS NO WAY THAT CHENREZIG CAN PROSTRATE AND PAY HOMAGE TO  AND PROPITIATE DORJE SHUGDEN FOR 40 YEARS AND THEN ANNOUNCE TO THE WORLD THAT HE HAD MADE A MISTAKE.

The cause for Tibetan Independence has basically been harmed by the way in which the government-in-exile - the CTA - has divided its people and created schism within, with the aggressive enforcing of the ban on Shugden practice,as a form of distraction from its own failure and incompetence. Furthermore, it is aggressively playing up the Dalai Lama's statement that Dorje Shugden has harmed the cause of Tibetan Independence and then boldly turning on its own people by declaring its advocacy of the Middle Way instead of Full Independence for Tibet (in support of the Dalai Lama "adjusted cause" for Tibet)! One hundred over Tibetans (including monastics) gave their lives in self-immolation for the cause of Tibet's full freedom! Such a pity indeed!

And now the Kalon Tripa - Lobsang Sangay - tells the Tibetans that Tibetans advocating independence or calling for a genuine democracy in exile society are "more dangerous than the Chinese Communists"!

[VeronicaSmith]

I know what you mean, and the most disturbing part is how Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama, through and oracle. He warned him and told him to leave Tibet before the shells of bombs destroyed the monastery he was at when the oracle spoke to him. Dorje Shugden is also deeply rooted into Buddhist and Tibetan lineages and history.

Dorje Shugden has never been a threat to Tibetan independence or tibet at all. That is the truth. there is no demon or anything.

[Jason Statham]

Yes, I have heard of this story before. Dorje Shugden saved Dalai Lama's life in 1958. Just like what Veronica Smith has wrote, Dorje Shugden has never been a threat to Tibetan independence or Tibet at all. The only reason why the Tibetan independence keeps on saying that Dorje Shugden is evil or a threat is mainly because Dalai Lama said so. There has been no prove that Dorje Shugden is a threat to the Tibetan independence or whatsoever. I love Dorje Shugden as well as my fellow DS practitioners, so please Dalai Lama, quickly lift up the ban of Dorje Shugden so that my fellow DS practitioners in India and Nepal can practice DS freely without them being criticized. Thank You.

[James Bond]

Hello Big Uncle,

I too do not see the logic in how Dorje Shugden harms Tibetan independence. From what you have said about what Dorje Shugden has done for the Dalai Lama it does not seem like Dorje Shugden has any bad intentions, but only good ones. If Dorje Shugden really is a threat towards Tibet in any way, why would he help the Dalai Lama? Someone who is so important to Tibet. If Dorje Shugden really did want to harm Tibetan Independence, he would have not helped the Dalai Lama in that situation.

Those are my thoughts, but i thank you, Big Uncle for sharing your views on the situation.

[grandmapele]

How can Dorje Shugden gain or what can Dorje shugden gain for Tibet not to gain independence? Independence is so secular a problem. In fact, Dorje Shugden wants what's best for Tibet. Dorje Shugden wants to aid the Buddhas to alleviate the suffering of being. Why would Dorje Shugden wants Tibetans to suffer?