Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?

[maricisun]

If the ban of DS is an act of a Mahasiddha then I believe the Dalai Lama is one and this is another way to spread DS. With all the news about how the ban has affected the practitioners the world is now aware of DS.
Let's hope that once the ban is lifted DS will need no introduction and will easily spread worldwide.

[Rihanna]

Perhaps no one is more tormented than the Dalai Lama and the ban is an act of a Mahasiddha. Perhaps. But this ban has caused too much hardship, suffering and death.  I know it is wrong to criticize the Dalai Lama, a Nobel Peace Prize winner,  a universal icon of peace and one who is revered as a Bodhisattva but he deserves criticism in this case for allowing this ban to last so long.  I urge the Dalai Lama to adopt a path far more tempting to the basic human instinct: to release the ban which have not served any benefit except tensions and restrictions. Rather than indulging in philosophical investigations and debates on whether it is a divine act, please listen to the urgent pleas from people pushed to the brink by decades of ruthless repression as a result of the ban.

[Matibhadra]

If the ban of DS is an act of a Mahasiddha then I believe the Dalai Lama is one and this is another way to spread DS.

But since the ban of DS of the act of a perverted terrorist, what then do you believe?

[Matibhadra]

Perhaps no one is more tormented than the Dalai Lama and the ban is an act of a Mahasiddha.

Every criminal is ultimately tormented by their monstrous actions, but this does make of them a ”mahasiddha”.

I know it is wrong to criticize the Dalai Lama, a Nobel Peace Prize winner,  a universal icon of peace and one who is revered as a Bodhisattva

Wrong? Wherefrom did you take this one? Many mass murderers have received the Nobel Peace Prize. Barack Obama, Henry Kissinger, Yitzhak Rabin, just to name a few; and the evil ”dalai” is no different.

Probably the most obnoxious Nobel Peace Prize nominee so far has been Henry Kissinger, the US State Secretary who organised the secret bombing of Laos and Cambodia (neutral countries) during the Vietnam War and was engaged in many other war crimes that cost about 3 millions human lives.

In the Seventies, the US badly needed to somehow repair their international image, and the 1973 Nobel Peace Prize to their chief criminal was a precious present from their faithful Scandinavian sucker.

A similar story happened in 2009 when Barack Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize despite being the president of the world’s most belligerent country then heavily engaged in two wars and responsible for countless war crimes.

During Obama’s rule, the US military presence has heavily increased around the world, thousands of people are now slaughtered by drones and other modern murder technologies on daily basis. [...]

Many other Nobel Peace Prize laureates seem to have been nominated to give them more political weight they could later exercise acting as (factual) agents of the USA or other NATO members against their respective homelands.

Thus, Nobel Peace Prizes are usually given to war criminals, traitors and other similar persons who prove to be useful to the US and NATO in order to give them more political weight. The award has nothing to do with making the world a more peaceful place.

In fact, the Nobel Peace Prize has become a handy public relations tool for modern criminals in power, a service that Norway provides to its political and military leaders. Practically, by means of it Norway is sucking up to the US.

http://www.counter-propaganda.com/?post=en_Nobel_Peace_Prize_as_a_means_of_sucking_up

[Matibhadra]

From the above quotation, one part so precisely elucidates how and why the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to such a criminal as the evil that it is suitable to highlight it:

Many other Nobel Peace Prize laureates seem to have been nominated to give them more political weight they could later exercise acting as (factual) agents of the USA or other NATO members against their respective homelands.

Thus, Nobel Peace Prizes are usually given to war criminals, traitors and other similar persons who prove to be useful to the US and NATO in order to give them more political weight. The award has nothing to do with making the world a more peaceful place.

Indeed, the perverted criminal dalai is nothing but a weapon used by US and its NATO vassal states against so-coveted Tibet, and ultimately against Buddhism itself.

Therefore, the evil 14th dalai, rather than a ”mahasiddha”, qualifies as a despicable traitor of Tibet, Tibetans, and Buddhism.

By the way, the evil 13th dalai did not fare better, having donated a huge chunk of his homeland, known as South Tibet (renamed as ”Arunachal Pradesh”), to the greedy, predatory, brutal, murderous, drug-dealing East Indian Company.

[Atishas cook]

sorry to keep pressing this point, but with the greatest respect, it is utterly WRONG - and ultimately very harmful - to say that patently and unambiguously evil actions are secretly virtuous, or that the perpetrators of those actions are somehow worthy of our respect, because everything is empty, or because Pabongkha Rinpoche tells us in his Kangso that Buddhas can manifest as deluded beings.  this is, to quote Geshe Chekhawa, to turn a god into a demon - to misunderstand and to misuse the holy Dharma.

you people saying that the False Dalai Lama's actions are the actions of a Mahasiddha need to develop some wisdom.  this is a ridiculous thing to say; the False Dalai Lama has caused the biggest schism in the Sangha the world has ever seen.  he has caused hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to break their samaya and to reject their path to liberation and he is trying to eradicate this path entirely.  his actions are incredibly harmful.  this is unequivocally a fact.

PLEASE will you stop this idiocy.  if you are engaged in the advanced practices of completion stage Tantra and viewing all phenomena as inseparable from bliss and emptiness, that's marvellous and i rejoice - but keep it to yourself.  for goodness' sake, act according to the conventions of common appearance and denounce and oppose evil wherever you see it.

can't you see it??!

[Matibhadra]

PLEASE will you stop this idiocy.

Don't hold your breath. People supporting the evil dalai with ”mahasiddha” arguments and the like are not interested in stopping any idiocy.

Rather, they want to promote idiocy, specifically, the idea that the pernicious dalai is above any kind of blame or reproach, as some kind of ”infallible” pope of the middle ages.

That's why people promoting such a sordid, inhuman agenda always try to shift the blame for the evil dalai's crimes to the ”CTA”, while attempting at keeping an immaculate image of the criminal, thus suitable to be used by Western hate-and-war propaganda as an anti-China posterboy.

Such people are just politically motivated, are guilty of mixing Dharma with politics, and basely misuse Dharma sacred traditions such as the one of the Mahasiddhas as a tool for legitimizing and covering their own sordid political purposes.

[psylotripitaka]

Atishas Cook,

I hear what you say, and well said, but you miss the point of this thread. Some people here have the DL as one of their Teachers, so they are trying to figure out a way to reconcile his actions with respect to their commitments of Guru devotion.

Matibhadra is doing an excellent job elucidating the heinous conventional actions. The aim of my posts is simply to help such persons be able to keep their samaya while taking compassionate action to stop actions inappropriate by human laws.

Despite what you and Matibhadra say, based on excellent sources of which I'm familiar, the fact remains that people have Guru samaya with the DL, and I'm sure you are both familiar with the Lamrim and Ashvagosha's 50 Verses on Guru Devotion. Due to these instructions, particularly the grave dangers involved, you must understand how this poses a very confusing and concerning dilemma for his students.

Pure view is not exclusively for tantric practitioners nor is such a view only maintained as a high realization. There are many levels of training in this view. By discussing it, there is a chance it may help people follow the lamrim instruction while also being able to take appropriate actions according to common human conventions.

The stance you take appears to be strictly a compassionate view of the DL as a suffering sentient being. That is valid and important. But there is another side to it that is also valid, and there is no contradiction.

Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso himself even has said that though someone may be an emanation of Vajradhara, they are appearing as a human and it is entirely appropriate to confront them if their actions are inappropriate by common human standards.

So though he is not the actual incarnation of the Dalai Lama lineage, and his actions are criminal, it is very possible he is a Buddha performing skillful actions that defy ordinary understanding. The express purpose of pointing this out in this thread is once again, to help those who have samaya with the DL.

[Matibhadra]

Matibhadra is doing an excellent job elucidating the heinous conventional actions.

There is nothing beyond the merely conventional. Even the ultimate is this very lack of anything beyond the merely conventional, and is conventional itself. Let's not delude ourselves with the silly Jewish talk of beyondness.

So though he is not the actual incarnation of the Dalai Lama lineage, and his actions are criminal, it is very possible he is a Buddha performing skillful actions that defy ordinary understanding.

The same applies to the evil king Langdarma, to Osama bin Laden, to Jack the Stripper, to Chemical Ali, to a mad dog with rabies, or to a poisonous viper. Buddhas or not, they are better well locked in a jail or a cage, where they cannot harm others.

[Atishas cook]

psylotripitaka -

thank you for your skilful diplomacy!

that is a very specific condition and it would have been better - and made for a different discussion - if this thread had been entitled "If we have samaya with the DL, how can we reconcile our commitments with his apparently harmful action of banning Dorje Shugden?"  in this very specific case, we might choose to hold a view such as you describe.  i would also argue that we might validly consider him to have broken the samaya from his side, thereby freeing us from our commitment to him.  right or wrong, that might make for a valid discussion (in a new thread!)

nevertheless, even if it were the case that we had such samaya with the DL, as Matribhadra says, no matter what view we hold internally, the correct outer response is to oppose his harmful actions by all appropriate means.

and i stand by my point that, excepting this very specific case of those who are trying to maintain samaya with him, this is not a helpful view to put about; it just causes confusion.

[Matibhadra]

If we have samaya with the DL

Is it possible to have samaya with someone lacking samaya himself?

[Matibhadra]

Unless you call ”samaya” the kind of oath sworn by members of mafia-style criminal organizations.

In such case, this is not a Buddhist samaya, and needs to be broken if one wants to become a Buddhist.

Therefore, if anyone ever took such a non-Buddhist oath from the evil criminal dalai, this person definitely needs to break this oath, in order even to become a Buddhist.

[Atishas cook]

yup. ^^ what he (or she) said.

i understand some ppl are struggling to give up on their perceived samaya, and i lay the blame for their pain directly at the door of the False Dalai Lama.  he has failed you the worst of everyone.

i believe Trijang Rinpoche's often-quoted statement about not disparaging the Dalai Lama was made out of skilful means and was appropriate for the time: he had no choice but to say this, and Tibetans had no real choice but to follow this advice at that time.  things are different now - now is the time to stand up and tell the truth.

False Dalai Lama "samaya"-holders - STOP FOLLOWING THE FALSE DALAI LAMA!

yes - i am saying it's time to break that connection.  it is not valid samaya.  he is a fraud.

[Matibhadra]

i believe Trijang Rinpoche's often-quoted statement about not disparaging the Dalai Lama was made out of skilful means and was appropriate for the time: he had no choice but to say this, and Tibetans had no real choice but to follow this advice at that time.

And even at that time, Trijang Rinpoche made a point of clearly remarking that the evil dalai is an envious character, which is just an euphemism for ”dangerous psychopath”.

Maybe from this very quintessencial remark comes the evil dalai's undisguised grudge against his tutor. An envious person will never forgive whoever points to their character deformity.

[Q]

Personally, I am no fan of the Dalai Lama. I follow Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, although I have no direct connection with Rinpoche, I take Rinpoche as my teacher. As far as I know, even Rinpochela does not speak ill of Dalai Lama, not because the circumstances forces Rinpoche to not able to speak against DL, because we all know Rinpochela will never bend to any political or social pressure, which is the very reason why Rinpochela is still keeping His practice of Dorje Shugden.

Since that is the case, I'm following my teacher's footsteps and not condemn the DL, eventhough I feel the DL is wrong in so many ways. But that does not mean I don't fight for the ban to be lifted, but fighting through a method that does not disparage the DL or displease my teacher.

Remember, not everyone here are students of GKG. I do not know what Geshela have thought His students about the DL, but from the way some of you behave it is quite clear that Geshela would outwardly speak ill of DL.

Forcing people to follow your views, and calling people idiots for not agreeing with you. If there's such lack of tolerance even between Shugden practitioners, you can forget about asking the DL to lift the ban.