These are my thoughts of what the speakers spoke and some of the things they have mentioned. TQVM dorjeshudgen,com for not making us miss this discussion.
Part 1 ->>
Kelsang Rabten ->
CTA and the Dalai Lama have said that propitiating Dorje Shugden leads to shortness of life of the Dalai lama and Tibetan independence. How can a monk who holds his vows be harmed by a monk? The Tibetans lost their country all on their own accord just because the CTA has been ineffective of engaging further with China, certainly you can't blame Dorje Shugden?
Geshe Tashi Tsering ->
He actually said he was not representing any organisation, but you did not come from a particular monastery? its like once you suck out the nutrients just discard where you were trained or come from.
He claimed Dorje Shugden was not part of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings neither is Nechung, who came about after subjugation from Padmasambhava, Shakyamuni did not prophesize about Nechung. In fact now CTA consults him
on the matters of state.
If Nechung was allowed to do as he please, the world would not have known the Dalai Lama, had the monks taken the advice of Nechung.
In the music delighting and ocean of protectors by Trijang Rinpoche said people who think there should not be a protector as powerful as Dorje Shudgen to protect Je tsongkhapa's lineage is clearly mistaken.
So the Sakyas could not recognise the difference between an enlightened dharma protector or a spirit? So the Sakyas are a bit fuzzy like the Gelugs, we cannot recognise a spirit from an enlightened protector?
If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, can't you exorcise him, a divisive spirit should be easy to dispel. Trijang Rinpoche ascended the Gaden throne twice hello. So there are Gaden Tripa who were loyal followers of Dorje Shugden.
Carol McGuire ->
Yes as i mentioned previously the Dorje Shugden issue is not just about NKT or ex NKT people who have a bone to pick with NKT, there are many more organisations and lamas and practitioners outside of NKT or separate from it.
The monks at Shar Gaden/ Serpom are not part of NKT and life is difficult when you are surrounded by lay people and other people who constantly make life difficult for you.
The 3 benefits of propitiating a dharma protector is the same across the board.
Her talk is more of a criticism of NKT than of Dorje Shugden..... it is like since NKT is no good Shugden is bad too as thats their main practice.
She does not understand the guru student relationship, in vajrayana you are responsible to do checking yourself your teacher, if you have chosen a Guru then just follow all the way. No wonder Maitreya will no teach Tantra. She is clearly out of depth with regards to this discussion
Martin A Mills ->
He was doing dissertation in the Ladakh area in the late nineties and was taken in by a Gelug monasteries and there side by side the Ladakh sangha revered Dorje Shugden and Dalai lama side by side.
A monastery in Ladakah may or may not be representative of the entire Gelug hierarchy as Ladakh is at the Tibetan border, even up to now you can see how Tibetans refer to buddha as god. So language always can be confusing.
Thierry Dodin ->
A shame can't hear what he was talking about....
John McBretney ->
Thanks for showing the VIDEO - so people can see the ban, I myself have been to Shar Gaden there was an old monk abandoned by his students because he wanted to keep his samaya with his teacher and carry on Dorje Shugden practice. He was blind in the end due to lack of care and now being cared by Shar Gaden.
Nathan Hills ~ Moderator
He obviously does not know that magic rituals or supernatural beings CANNOT affect a pure monk. Also he said harm to Tibet cannot come from Dorje Shugden but from perhaps PLA and external forces, soon CTA will say the gelug lamas colluded to bring the PLA into the central tibetan plains thats how far CTA would go.
I liked this point whereby he said just because the Shugden practice was a later introduction it does not invalidate Tsongkhapa tradition and he quoted Thomas Aquinas that just because there is no writing from him on Lady Fatima it does not mean she is a demon or spirit.
Yamantaka was not openly known to the public during Ra Lotsawa's time and certainly Shakyamuni did not mention that publicly too so Yamantaka also a demon? We will end up having no practices and teachings the rate we are
dumping protectors, lamas and their teachings, lets all just go meditate on the breath only in the forest, there isn't anything beyond that!
Nathan mentioned Carol's sharing was she liked what she learnt outside of NKT and did not like this. So Carol is just sharing her personal views, not a very factual kind of talk. And NKT is not unique at all, all that Carol pointed out is common to all kinds of Buddhist organisations.
He said based on Martin's talk in Ladakah , DS and Dalai Lama equally revered, normal part of the ritual program. Early part of the 1990's unproblematic, between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama.
Nathan said from Thierry he learnt that the 14th Dalai Lama sometimes tended to refer back to the 5th Dalai Lama. The 5th Dalai Lama's time was when it all started, he made statue and chapel to Dorje Shugden and apologised for the death Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen. So the 14th Dalai Lama is not following the Great 5th as claimed.
Though Gelug hierarchy and HHDL are closely intertwined yet the HHDL has his own particular agenda,so the Dalai Lama may not always have the Gelug tradition in the best interest. And that Thierry said no controversy is black and white.
Part 2 ->>
Kelsang Rabten ->
He refuted the monk's claims that there is no linkage between Dorje Shugden and Je Tsongkhapa, by saying the previous incarnation of Dorje Shugden was Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. Duldzin was tasked in building Gaden and coming up with a syllabus, no easy feat and showed that Duldzin was of the same spiritual attainment as Je Tsongkhapa.
As for the 101st Gaden Tripa in order to teach his students and take care of the monastery he had to hide his faith. If one say thats wrong then one can also say it wasn't right for the jews to hide from the Nazis?
He also said there was Geshe who was there during Pabongka time who wrote about the time of Je Pabongka and it is in a book.
Geshe Tashi Tsering ->
There is no ban. Sounds more like personal attack. The three monks killed is not proven in any court of law. Yet again China and DOrje Shugden practitioners are made scapegoats.
Carol ->
I have no issue of saying a prayer for HHDL if he passes away. What would that prove? The Karmpaa issue dear carol was created by HHDL recognizing Karmapa, thats not the correct protocol, why rock the boat ? Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was expelled due to the ban hello?
Mills
Monasteries are autonomous and HHDL does not have the authority to ban this practice. In 1998 Ladakhis were holding their breaths they don't want the controversy to come to the Ladakhis.
He said dharma protectors are Constitutional deities, well i think it is people who politicise practices not the Dharmpalas themselves or are in the nature of.
CTA putting this kind of list out, and ISC protesting is counterproductive to both ? Hmm i think the
good professor does not look at all elements of the DS movement, there is Shar Gaden and Serpom, the dorjeshugden website, Trijang Rinpoche and many more good that has come out from Dorje Shudgen practitioners working together. We have no way to address this issue, at least we are non violent.
John McBretney ->
Reiterated the conditions for stooping the Ban. We don't want to demonstrate, but if there is no avenue for dialogue and negotiations then the demonstrations will carry on.
Nathan Summing Up
Dalai Lama Appoints the Gaden Tripa, I think this happened due to the 5th Dalai Lama time when he was given the authority over the political and spiritual aspects of Tibet. Reading Pabongka Rinpoche's he did not find this lama was promoting against violence against other sects.
