Who is the heckler (Shugden or no?) in video at Hamburg teaching?

[Blueupali]

Blueupali OK previously I was trying to believe that your ideas were just from readin things and not having any first-hand experience.  Now you are saying that you know people who are deliberately infiltrating our Centres. And that maybe the people ISC choose are like this.

No. Too much 007.

Well, I have never been too much into TV, but especially not 007.  I was very surprised when this happened (these people trying to convert me to other dharmas, some teaching at my local Center at the time, some about to start teaching).  So, yes, I would say though, if we notice that Venerable Geshe Keslang heads the top of a list of most wanted (please live for a long time Ven. Geshe Kelsang) dead Shugden people by the DL's CTA, then we can say, okay, that seems like a little too much 007 too.  I mean, who ever heard of killing Buddhist lamas?  Well the fifth Dalai Lama certainly had no problem with it.  Do you think people who want to know a lama's whereabouts so they could kill him would be upfront about it?  Why is he at the head of the list anyway?  Because he directly said the DL was lying?  Well, okay, so, do you think the DL's students are anymore honest than their teacher (some may be, like the ones who are new and just like his books--- they may not even count as DL students).  When we are dealing with the ego of this so called Chenresig emanation (the DL) and people who think we are destroying Buddhism and all living beings with our prayers, then do you think people like that are very logical?  Because there is no logic manifest in the DL's teachings, except that of his remaining supremely in charge.  His image is important for his student's to maintain, so you know, just consider that since anyone can join the NKT, the DL people think we are bad and lying to us to destroy our tradition is fine (like if a hunter wants to know which way an animal went--- point the wrong way) then lying to destroy our tradition would also be fine.
  Consider, the "Dharma" of the DL is very mixed, it is not an authentic transmission from the time of Buddha, so his followers are following a cult leader.  Since he says fine words, they believe him, and they think we are really bad evil people for this practice of wrathful Buddha Manjushri (Dorje Shugden) which they mistake for a spirit.  So, misdirecting what we do, logically, to them, is like misdirecting a hunter toward his prey in the woods. 
  We need to be careful who we pick, because a duplicitous teacher would logically have duplicitous students.
  Not 007, that is just a DL trick to make us not talk while they take as many talking spots as possible in the ISC so they can make the Dalai Lama come off looking like a cherub.  Be careful who you trust.

[empowerment]

Blueupali Sorry but I am not buying into your vision.

I have lived in NKT Centres for 25 years.  I have never had experience of what you are talking about.  In Dharma Centres it's not difficult after a while, getting to know them, to find out a person's real intentions.

If you have details of people in NKT teaching and at the same time telling people not to follow Geshe Kelsang but to follow the Dalai Lama then wouldn't it be kind of you to let NKT know about that?

And if you don't then why wouldn't you do that?

[Blueupali]

Well empowerment,
  I am so already on the page of telling the NKT about it, which I originally did in Oct. 2012, writing to tell the General Spiritual Director and the National Spiritual Director of the U.S (Gen Jampa) that we were being read zen to in one of the GP classes and that the resident teacher mentioned to another GP class that we might not always have Dorje Shugden as our Dharma Protector.
  I did hear from the U.S. spiritual director to please write the Ed. Council reps, but like the WSS, I have never heard anything at all from the Ed. Council reps.  Nor have I heard from the GSD.  I wrote them a lot by now, we have about 200 plus pages detailing issues both in and out of class with proselitization to other dharmas, to not following the curriculum, etc..  The resident teacher of the San Diego Center was kind enough to respond, in an email, for me not to continue writing anyone but her.  When I did not comply, I found myself and my small daughter completely excluded from our "NKT" community.  Apparently, one is not allowed to point out mixed dharmas.
  I also wrote the WSS, but they have also ignored everything I have said; I submitted a paper to them to publish as they had asked on their site for submissions that detailed the Dalai Lama's hypocracy, human rights violations, etc., but they never got back to me.  It did subsequently get posted on DS.com, though I toned down the last paragraph to include pure view. 
  I have noticed these issues of people who seem keen on the idea of changing the dharma protector, or at least trying to convince me that our practice is bad.... (PFWP teacher told me well, what difference does it make if we don't have Shugden as our Protector, we just need to go to enlightenment, so what does it matter?).  I don't happen to get to enlightenment without Dorje Shugden, when I said that I would leave the NKT unless they followed Shugden, she started crying.  I don't think some of these people are with us, and if you really have been around for 25 years then I can't see how you wouldn't have noticed.  (I can understand not talking about infiltrators normally, as it would distract from dharma, but when they are teaching then you know.... like no way.)
 
 

[DharmaSpace]

I think asking the question is good and great.

Accusing the Dalai Lama well, even if it is true, if we say it out that way, we will lose the neutrals or people who might even consider coming to pay homage to Dorje Shugden? Yeah people in the middle will think we are extremists.

If we start this trend of heckling, if the anti DS supporters heckles Geshela or Trijang Dorjechang or other DS lamas, won't that be most unfortunate.

[Blueupali]

P.S. To empowerment, the RT that said we might be switching Dharma Protectors was an RT that immediately preceded the one that told me to write only her.
  Just to clarify, this was said in the Kid's class-- I get the distinct impression this group wants to end the Shugden practice this generation. 
  If one of these sorts heckles as an ISC, well then that is not what we need, okay.  Nor do we need these sorts of people who couldn't care less about Shugden (except that they would love to end the practice) to somehow end up speaking on the ISC's behalf, because really, we need someone we can trust.  I think we should request Sonam Rinchen to dialogue with the DL if we are given an option, because we have got some serious anti-Shugden people at least in the U.S. who teach... and probably elsewhere....

[Blueupali]

P.P.S To empowerment, if you have lived in NKT Centers for 25 years, then it would seem you have been with the organization for awhile, so they might not be attempting to convert you (the big ban went into affect in 2008) and I arrived in 2009.  You have been here too long, you see, for them to try that.  My concern is that they may not always be upfront, go to the ISC, and try to take the mic, which either could
  1. play down the ban
  2. misdirect what we consider to be the big issues
  3. be a strawman if we get to talk to the Dalai Lama
 4. misrepresent us some other way, such as by making the DL look reasonable while we look unreasonable, such as if we ask a question, do not wait for a reply and start yelling.  This doesn't look reasonable, okay.  The person who did that though, might have just been following a suggestion from someone they trusted, who maybe was't with us.  I don't know who is with us or not all the time, which is why I say to have caution. 
  I will direct you to an article I wrote on the Dalai Lama giving bad samaya, so you will understand, I think his students are following a misguided man; I understand they believe they are helping all living beings by making the DL look good, but you know, sometimes people have destroyed stupas when they belong to other religions, because they thought Buddhists were idol worshipers.  It's not good karma, okay. 

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/guest-writers/tantric-guru-or-cult-leader-can-your-lama-give-samaya/

[Atishas cook]

Blue Upali -

i'm choosing to believe you're sincere and not a troll.  it's difficult for me to say this without coming across as patronising, but please believe that this is not my intention and that i, too, am being sincere: you sound as if you are suffering from paranoia.  some of the behaviour you have described yourself engaging in would certainly be interpreted by most people as unbalanced, and it is not surprising to me that you have not received many replies to your various letters.  i am not trying to be rude or insensitive here - all i would ask is that you simply consider the possibility that you are reading too much into all this and that the conspiracy you say may not, in fact, exist outside your own mind.  like 'empowerment', while i do see the occasional issues one would expect in any large spiritual organisation, i fail to see anything even approaching the subterfuge you appear to perceive in NKT Centres.

for example - and please believe me when i say this because i am telling you the truth - i know the ISC representatives from the US demos very well.  they are personal friends i have known for many years and i can tell you categorically that they are faithful Dorje Shugden practitioners to their core, and that they have the full backing and support of ISC and of our Teachers (who you have said you have faith in too).  secondly, i also know the heckler well: he too is a dyed-in-the-wool Dorje Shugden practitioner of many years!  he too had the full backing and support of ISC and of all the people you might want him and his actions to be checked out by!  i have done MANY Dorje Shugden pujas with all these people, and i have never, ever, once - in all my many conversations with them, whether about the ban, the protests, our Dharma practice, or any other topic - had cause to doubt their utter, steadfast commitment for a second.

i cannot state this strongly enough.  i can tell you that you are, in this case, completely wrong.  i really, genuinely, hope this helps you to stop and take a step back and reassess.  i don't think your train of thought about all this is very healthy for you.

now as to whether or not it was effective, or he should have allowed the False DL time to answer - absolutely not!  he did EXACTLY the right thing, and his action was much, much more powerful than if he'd allowed the FDL to carry on lying.  for all the reasons people have said above, this action was a triumph.  if you disagree with it, you disagree with ISC's tactics - which is fair enough, you have freedom.

peace.
AC x

[DharmaSpace]

Thanks Atisha's Cook for clearing the air. 

[Blueupali]

AC--- I don''t agree that someone who sits throught DS puja is necessarily sincere, and nope, it's not paranoia, I know what happened at my local center--- lots of lies involved from people working against us on the one hand (trying to convert others) and teaching on the other.  I am just saying with the ISC US representatives that they do not seem very sincerely able to get the ISC point across.  I think that it is likely that they do not want to get the point across, and maybe someone in the ISC doesn't want to get the point across.  Why didn't the ISC make sure that more people would be at the Protests?  I didn't know about them, until I saw it posted on DS.com.... the California Prostests were the smallest ones, I think, of any.  If we want people to come, perhaps tell more of them?  Perhaps instead of just saying class is cancelled, we could say why class is cancelled?
  Also why did the U.S. spokespeople play down all the important points about violence against Shugdens, the actual difficulties of the ban, including it being more than just certain shops etc., and why not refer to Dorje Shugden as enlightened?  I notice a particular subset of our "teachers" do not think we will stay with Shugden, it wouldn't bother them if we don't stay with Shugden, etc.  These are usually the same people that don't say Shugden is a Buddha, an enlightened being, etc.   So if they downplay the ban and won't explain Shugden is enlightened to the mainstream press, then I don't trust them, or think they are good spokespeople.
  The thing with the DL DID look staged to me, because the DL is never calm about Shugden, like when he yelled at a peaceful nun.  So now, we yelled at him before he could answer our question.  I don't think a lot of ISC people want this to go to well for us, because they don't want to make the DL look bad.
 
  I trust Geshe-la; I didn't say I have faith in just random people. 
  I am just pointing this out, so that maybe the right people can speak, rather than the ones who won't help.  Everyone says everyone else is sincere, but like I said I experienced NKT so called teachers teaching mixed dharmas in our class and saying we might switch dharma protectors.   
  I don't trust everyone I see, and I it's not paranoia, it's just logic. 
 

[empowerment]

Blueupali Sorry to disagree with your points again. 

Atisha's Cook's post has lots of good advice in it and I agree with what he says.

I do not recognize the ISC or NKT that you are talking about and I personally know, like AC, the people involved; they are all sincere followers of our Dharmapala.

The vision you promote is not one I recognize.  Also I cannot find anybody else who agrees with your view.  You may have had some personal experience that has led you to say these things but that does not invalidate the much larger personal experience of the many other people I know who cannot agree with your idea.

So maybe it's useful for yourself just to say this is only your own idea - but it isn't helping anyone else here as far as I can see.

Your remarks are not constructive or beneficial for the activities of stopping the ban and returning to harmony within Buddhism free from political pollution, in my view. 

The responses (or lack of them) that you received before from the organizations should also give you room to think and possibly reconsider your view.  It could be mistaken eh?

[Blueupali]

Empowerment,
  Let us consider a few facts that bear on the ISC/NKT.  You say you are in the NKT at least 25 years?  Okay then you would understand the following to be odd, given that the study programs in the NKT are supposed to follow Geshe-la's books, only include (for in class Geshe-la's books--- read what you like elsewhere) and not mix dharmas, okay, and we are supposed to be following Dorje Shugden, I understand, as Heart Jewel is the main practice, and is the essence of the New Kadampa Tradition. So then it's odd when at an NKT temple:

1. Mixed transmissions including directly reading a zen text in class
2. Happy face at the heart meditation (Je Tsongkhapa's pure doctrine???)
3. Mention that we may switch Dharma Protectors in the class
4. Proselytizing to switch to other schools from people who were teaching classes and also people who were imminently teaching classes, when I wrote the GSD and Ed. Council reps that this happened, I received no response from either the GSD or Ed. Council reps.  The NKT is remarkably silent on this issue. That's odd, given that we are for keeping the transmissions pure, and so if the GSD and Ed. Council don't have a problem with this, then I am just wondering what is going on?  Is the NKT planning to switch dharma protectors?  Because if so, I need a Kundeling Rinpoche school or something... the same people who picked the strange teaching staff who they allow to mix dharmas are some of the same ones that make a big show about flying from far away to protests, while people who live nearby and wanted to keep Dorje Shugden in the NKT as the Dharma protector, would not necessarily be informed.
  Obviously if we have people who are uninterested in maintaining the NKT as Geshe-la would want it but are promoting more mixed (Dalai Lama vision) dharmas and also appear unconcerned about our Protector's staying our Protector, then I wonder if maybe some of the same not-so-into Shugden people might not try to talk for the ISC for us?
  Why would that be a problem?  Why, I guess I would want to make sure that we make our point to the world about the Dalai Lama and his terrible ban, but if these guys are talking and won't call Shugden enlightened but just the deity, won't mention the torture, explain the forced signature campaigns, but just say it's apartheid because we can't go into certain shops, why, that makes the Dalai Lama look like a hero who probably didn't even mean for that to happen!  And then if another such guy interrupts his answer when he is lying (that's all he does, let him get caught in it) then why SHUGDENS look unreasonable rather than the Dalai Lama!  Didn't one of the ISC spokespeople in California forget to email DorjeShugden.com back about a 1000 dollar donation that DS.com wanted to make. Gosh it's funny how they can make the Dalai Lama's ban look like it's really way less bad than it is, forget to take a donation, and then FINALLY when the Dalai Lama, looking very composed for the first time with anything regarding Shugden, starts to answer the question, the heckler, (who you are saying is as sincere as these other spokespeople?) interrupts and makes SHUGDENS look like WE won't dialogue with the Dalai Lama rather than the other way around.  It's been the other way around for a very long time, that we ask for dialouge and the DL won't give it.  Looks bad, for him, but NOW he looks good, and oh, maybe one of these guys that can't remember to follow up on a donation or bring home key points of the ban, maybe THOSE GUYS could represent Shugdens to the Dalai Lama if we ever got an audience.
  Now, I know there are a bunch of people who claim to do this practice right now, but there is no way in hell that they do.  Are these FPMT?   Whoever they are, go home and leave us alone.  Stop Dharma Policing Buddhism, DL dudes. 

[Lineageholder]

Dear Blue Upali, I agree with you that if non-Kadam Dharma is being taught at your centre then NKT Office needs to be told about it and they should respond.

As for the conspiracy theory stuff about changing Dharma Protectors, I can tell you that I've been an NKT teacher and practitioner for twenty years and that's not going to happen. As Atisha's Cook has said, I have also known the ISC spokespersons as friends for a long time and their commitment to Dorje Shugden and the cause of lifting the ban is beyond question. I'd like to request you to stop posting these kinds of comments as they are not helpful and they create doubts in people's minds. We've got enough problems tackling the false Dalai Lama and his ban without dissention amongst Dorje Shugden practitioners. Working together in harmony will achieve results so please help by being constructive.

[Blueupali]

Lineageholder,
  If people are insincere, and if the NKT does not respond for 2 years, even on request of email receipts, then the only doubt I have is whether we can rely on people who are coming right now to be as honest as they say from the NKT.
  It's okay, apparently with the management of the NKT not to teach the Geshe-la books, for an RT to say in class we might change Dharma Protectors?
  Well, then when that same organization provides spokespeople from the U.S. who downplay the ban, fail to mention key points like torture, and do not talk about Dorje Shugden as a Buddha, or enlightened, but just as a deity, and also forget to get back to DS.com  concerning a 1000 dollar donation, then I definitely doubt their sincerity.  I am saying, Geshe-la and the DL are both quite old.  Some people think we shouldn't do Shugden; the DL lies, do you really think his students are more sincere?
  Requesting I do not speak in order not to cause doubts is not a good argument.  I am trying to raise awareness that we need people talking that we can rely on and also that it looks funny that the protests were downplayed (Los Angeles only had a 100-150 or so people?  We have a ton of NKT Centers in the U.S. and in California, but like I said, the NKT newsletters only mentioned that the classes were cancelled, not cancelled because of protests.  I am on an NKT study course in Los Angeles by correspondence, but heard nothing about it.  I wrote the WSS, after hearing about it on DS.com, but the WSS did not get back to me, just like they never got back to me whether they had even received the following article for submission, later posted on DS.com:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-legacy-of-the-not-so-great-5th/

Neither the WSS can get back about protests, they change from WSS to ISC without warning, the first protests are quite small because some people didn't know (I am quite vocally pro-Shugden obviously, as opposed to some prominent people who show up at these things.)  I have no voice in the ISC or WSS, neither the WSS or the Ed. Council from NKT respond on whether they have even received emails.  Something seems up with that.  And I can prove all of that.
  So I am not going to be quiet about it, because it doesn't look right to me.

[empowerment]

Blueupali Your tone in this thread is not at all cooperative with any of the other participants who have tried to engage with you.  You repeat the same things again and again but we have all read them before.

I understand now why you receive no replies to your emails - because no reply can satisfy you!

People have listened to what you have to say - they prefer to differ as to what to do about your information.  Why not just accept that's how it is?

Maybe you believe that you are the only one who knows the real truth - but now you have written to everybody about it and they seem to not agree with you - isn't it time to just let go of this?

[Blueupali]

Empowerment---
  If the NKT won't reply, not even the Ed. Council reps to say what emails they received about mixed dharmas, even though the NSD told me to write them, then I think it is safe to say we have a breach of contract with Ven. Geshe-la's tradition's Internal Rules going on within the NKT.  The NKT people that talk for us, in some cases may not be representing an actual true Shugden position, as we seem to have many people who are not Shugden, even some of them are teachers.  If no one replies, then perhaps no one really wants to notice that we definitely for the last at least 2 years have had some very impure (anti-Shugden) anti-Geshe-la dharmas going on, so if they will not reply, then to me, it looks like we have a rather large problem in the NKT.
  If similar people, who won't bring up the points about torture and did not refer to Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being when they had the mic with the mainstream press are our spokespeople, then I am concerned that perhaps not everyone who is coming to the ISC is really with Shugden in their hearts, or a Shugden lama either.
  I am completely co-operating with this forum in that I am being truthful.  The NKT doesn't seem to want anyone to know they have had some issues with anti-Shugden people teaching, impure dharmas etc.?  Then that is a problem for the interface between the ISC and NKT, which could lead to people misdirecting the ISC to help the DL keep his amazing good reputation in the press, while we come off looking bad, or making improper points.  I think we are supposed to have free speech, yes?  So I am in harmony with the Buddha because I am speaking truthfully and without malice and I am upholding Dorje Shugden's heart commitment because I am trying to bring forth points about how we are possibly being misrepresented, so that we can correct this, so that we can engage in helpful dialogue that would help bring this ban down.
  Pray tell me, why were the first protests so difficult to predict by regular NKT members?  Did someone not want our voices heard?  If all of us should have known (and somehow I didn't until 24 hours prior to the L.A one from posts here that we were even having protests, despite being a member of the NKT on an FP study program, then why were the protests so small?  I would have LOVED to be at them; how many other people didn't know about them?) 
  Why was the WSS not polite enough to even respond that they had received the article I later had published on this site?  Why did not anyone from the WSS email to say that the ISC would now be in charge of the protests?