Who is the heckler (Shugden or no?) in video at Hamburg teaching?

[vajratruth]

The Dalai Lama got the message very clearly. Probably in the last 79 years there were no other person passing his message so clearly to him.

And the audiance got the message that there must be something wrong behinde the scene with the Dalai Lama.

Very good.

I am all for protesting the Dalai Lama's ban, and for exposing the side of the Dalai Lama and his government that the world is only beginning to see. But  on this particular post, I would agree with Blueupali. It was an opportunity to engage with the Dalai Lama and catch him out on his lies, and to show to those who are still sitting on the fence, that the Dalai Lama's answer (which was cut short prematurely) and hence his reasons for the ban, lack logic and substance. As it turned out, that opportunity was lost. After all, shouting 'stop lying' was already being done outside the arena.

I think enough time have passed to show that it is futile to try and 'convert' Dalai Lama supporters to see the criminality in the Dalai Lama's actions. If they were looking for facts, they would have stopped supporting his ban a long time ago. Similarly, I think it is pointless to wait for the Dalai Lama to change his mind or to be shamed into moral conscience (per Lineageholder's point). But there are more than two sides to the conflict and a 'third side' must surely be those who have not entered the equation thus far, but could very well influence the speed of the desired outcome. And it is this third side that we have to be mindful of for they have to be won over.

[empowerment]

The person asking the question to the dalai lama was not a heckler but a kind bodhisattva showing us how to behave with a person deceiving millions.

In a public arena such a Hamburg (and any of the public events he teaches) the weight of credibility is with the man on the stage who people have paid to listen to.

Instead of answering directly the 2 questions he was asked the dalai lama (like any politician) tried to change the subject to a generalization that Buddhist monks do not lie. (In which case of course Trijang Rinpoche didn't lie about Shugden!)

When I heard the questioner interrupt him at that point and say "Stop Lying!" I was inspired!

In these posts an incredible, unbelievably incredible, deference is shown to a person who has cause unprecedented suffering - so I really do wonder about people's motives here.

In my country, the UK, when politicians are interviewed publicly by an experienced and seasoned presenter, as soon as the questioner smells evasion, obfuscation or any hint of lying, they interrupt the person talking.

It does not matter that they are the Prime Minister etc. If they lie they need to be exposed.  That's called democratic exchange.

This dalai lama has never experienced this in his entire life - everybody around him bows and agrees with his every whim.

Please, let's get some reality in to our questioning of this charlatan!

Good luck to the questioner in Hamburg and may there be many, many more.

[Blueupali]

Talking over someone is democratic exchange?
  All I am saying is that anyone can say they are with Shugden.... anyone can show up to check out how things are going at a Shugden Center and pretend like they practice.  Then if they aren't with Shugden, and get the mic, they can try to make us look like we are unreasonable people who don't even have anything to protest about.
  Rabten seems to bring up good points when he talks, but the ISC has chosen people who really downplayed the important points of the ban to the mainstream press, which might not make people understand that we have any big thing to protest.  Then some guy, in a teaching where people pay a lot of money, asks the DL a question about Shugden.  First, this is the first time the DL looks composed about Shugden.  We saw him yelling at a nun about spirit worship before--- she allowed him to answer though, that it was spirit worship.
  Then we had that on tape.
  But if you combine some people who play down the ban with someone who won't let the DL answer the question that was asked, "why did you break commitments....?" but yell at him, then we appear to be the ones that don't like dialogue.  The DL was calm, unlike when the nun talked to him, which to me does look like maybe he knew the question was coming this time, though with the nun he was taken off guard.
  Of course, I am not saying that everybody who protests with the ISC is really a Shugden person.
  Just like the people who murdered the monks in the 1990s--- how would I know--- if they say they are, so what?  Zong Rinpoche brought up to his students that sometimes in India and Tibet people who don't do the Shugden practice say they do, and some who do say they don't.
  If someone makes us look bad, and we have good people to choose from, then pick someone good....
 

[Ringo Starr]

Wow, this is great stuff. 

I'm a newbie to this forum and the controversy and am just pro-dharma, nothing else.

What I see is that the exchange between the heckler and H.H. Dalai Lama presents a great opportunity to (once again) show the world in general and the Tibetan people living in India in particular, what a Dalai Lama we have.

Why doesn't someone put this video up to the "monks don't lie" bit, together with the video(s) I have seen where the Dalai Lama has claimed there is no ban. and you will have a cracker of a video for the Tibetans in exile!

[empowerment]

Talking over someone is democratic exchange?
 

What matters is that he is stopped from lying. That is why the questioner did a good job.

Blueupali, do you really think after 20yrs of opportunities to engage, the false DL will now, in a public arena, with an off-guard question, will suddenly start telling the truth?!  Of course not.  Absurd idea.

In public whenever he opens his mouth on this subject he lies.  So the questioner did a good job in telling him directly to stop lying.

He is also showing that in this modern age powerful people who lie in public should be stopped as soon as possible. 

Yes, that is democratic exchange - and it can be rough and tough for the public figure if they are tying to cover-up something. 

This false DL has never been exposed to this kind of scrutiny and it is time we saw more of it!

[Blueupali]

Well, a. we don't know if he was really caught off guard, because like I'm saying, not everyone who says they are doing Shugden really is.
        b. he isn't stopped from lying.  He keeps lying, to stop him from lying we need to make sure people understand the point and also have someone who does a good job asking the question and answering him...
      if we catch him on video while he lies, the people in the audience can hear the reply, and see that he's lying later.
  Making us look bad, which can be done by someone who is or  not with Shugden, isn't welcome.

[Lineageholder]

It's not about how we look. That's a worldly concern. ISC's message is for the false Dalai Lama himself, not for his followers, and was delivered very effectively and bravely by this 'heckler'.

[Blueupali]

Lineageholder, it's not a worldly concern when how we look affects the opinion of others, and the message we are trying to deliver.
  Since not everybody who says they do the practice really does it, then letting somebody at a mic, might be counterproductive if they are not skillful.  when have we gotten a dialogue?  When has there ever been anything but censorship about us?  The Dalai Lama knows he looks bad, some people who are really with him may want him to come off looking better than he really does.  At NKT Centers for instance, anyone is welcome, which is great.  But just because someone goes to a place doesn't mean they are really with Shugden--- look at the NKT "survivors."  Do you really believe they think they are in a cult after being ordained, being there 7 years etc. if they didn't already think so to begin with?
  We need to be careful who is speaking for us, or it will not help the ban, because we will get someone who either makes us look bad, or downplays the issues, or "converts" to the Dalai Lama upon seeing him.... I mean... please guys, let's do be careful.
  So in summary, being concerned about how others perceive us is not worldly when the motive is bodhichitta, we want to make sure that people come to the Dharma so most people don't run around naked these days like Milarepa did, even the Milarepa emanations (like Gyaltrul Rinpoche, recognized by the 16th Karmapa as Milarepa) has always worn clothes anytime I have seen him.  So, you know, Milarepa has no worldly concerns about clothing, but the beings of this day must have needed him to wear clothing in order for them to wake up so so far he has been doing so, at least that I am aware of.  It helped the beings in old Tibet for him to show up naked and singing songs.... so he did.... but the situation we are in determines the presentation; the pure motive of wanting people to understand our position so our protests can be effective, and so the ban can really come down is what we are after here.

[empowerment]

Lineageholder, it's not a worldly concern when how we look affects the opinion of others, and the message we are trying to deliver.
  Since not everybody who says they do the practice really does it, then letting somebody at a mic, might be counterproductive if they are not skillful.  when have we gotten a dialogue?  When has there ever been anything but censorship about us?  The Dalai Lama knows he looks bad, some people who are really with him may want him to come off looking better than he really does.  At NKT Centers for instance, anyone is welcome, which is great.  But just because someone goes to a place doesn't mean they are really with Shugden--- look at the NKT "survivors."  Do you really believe they think they are in a cult after being ordained, being there 7 years etc. if they didn't already think so to begin with?
  We need to be careful who is speaking for us, or it will not help the ban, because we will get someone who either makes us look bad, or downplays the issues, or "converts" to the Dalai Lama upon seeing him.... I mean... please guys, let's do be careful.
  So in summary, being concerned about how others perceive us is not worldly when the motive is bodhichitta, we want to make sure that people come to the Dharma so most people don't run around naked these days like Milarepa did, even the Milarepa emanations (like Gyaltrul Rinpoche, recognized by the 16th Karmapa as Milarepa) has always worn clothes anytime I have seen him.  So, you know, Milarepa has no worldly concerns about clothing, but the beings of this day must have needed him to wear clothing in order for them to wake up so so far he has been doing so, at least that I am aware of.  It helped the beings in old Tibet for him to show up naked and singing songs.... so he did.... but the situation we are in determines the presentation; the pure motive of wanting people to understand our position so our protests can be effective, and so the ban can really come down is what we are after here.

Sorry but I just don't get your obsession about "is this guy 'doing Shugden'".  For your information I know that person as a sincere practitioner.  Does that change things?  Not really. 

He did a great job and you seem to miss the point about exposing this false Dalai Lama.

May I ask have you been on a demonstration?  If not, I can thoroughly recommend it as the best way to remove your concerns about "looking nice".  It's a great purification and mental enema, if you'll forgive the analogy.

People are not stupid.  When they see a protest they know that something is wrong for the protesters.  In this case it's this lying lama.

When they see this false DL being interrupted in public and told directly to stop lying they will understand he is not beyond criticism.

If you check the responses over three public talks when the DL was asked questions you'll notice in the first one, when the DL answered there was hysterical clapping, whistling and general celebration that the 'nasty questioner' had been silenced. 

In the second one the questioner was thrown out with some celebratory laughter (but not as much as at first) and in Hamburg what happened when he was thrown out?  Silence from the audience. They were actually confused about what was going on because it seemed an over the top response from the DL's people. Why can't a public figure take a bit of heckling?  What's he so weak for that he has to rely on 'heavies' pushing people out of the door?  The minds of the general public are starting to see a different image of this lama...he is not beyond normal public intercourse.  He is not infallible. He is not universally adored as a god of peace.

For me all that is positive.  It means the general public are getting real about this man.

You are concerned about how people perceive us?  They only need to believe his lie that we worship a spirit - then it doesn't matter how pure we are we shall be wiped off the face of the earth like the Cathars in the only Crusade against non-muslims.  We are already demonized beyond recogntion by the lies.

Please try going on a demonstration.  I live in Asia but I am going to be demonstrating in the US soon. Why can't you do the same?

For me it is a priority.  Is it the same for you? (to quote Milarepa)

[psylotripitaka]

Blueupali, I was just teasing you in my Kache Marpo post. I agree with where you're coming from, but I also understand there are some sharp actions that can sometimes seem unproductive. There is a broader picture.

I personally feel it would have been much more productive to simply state:

'You speak about tolerance, harmony and respect, yet the protesters have provided thorough evidence that you support the opposite actions against people. People want to hear your teachings, but the protests are disruptive. Can you please have an open dialogue with them and disprove their evidence? Do you believe a mere difference of opinion about Dorje Shugden validates the persecution of people's human and religious rights taking place against these practitioners?'

[icy]

Blueupali, I was just teasing you in my Kache Marpo post. I agree with where you're coming from, but I also understand there are some sharp actions that can sometimes seem unproductive. There is a broader picture.

I personally feel it would have been much more productive to simply state:

'You speak about tolerance, harmony and respect, yet the protesters have provided thorough evidence that you support the opposite actions against people. People want to hear your teachings, but the protests are disruptive. Can you please have an open dialogue with them and disprove their evidence? Do you believe a mere difference of opinion about Dorje Shugden validates the persecution of people's human and religious rights taking place against these practitioners?'

Psylotripitaka, you sound like a Wisdom Buddha.  This is exactly what we should say to the Dalai Lama when we have the closest opportunity next time.  But again he might not directly answer these questions.  Remember he is a politician, he will dodge these points like the last time.

[Blueupali]

Please try going on a demonstration.  I live in Asia but I am going to be demonstrating in the US soon. Why can't you do the same?

For me it is a priority.  Is it the same for you?

Well, you know, it's funny you ask, because I certainly did try to go to a Protest.  Somehow, some of the um "Shugden" people (which I am not buying, because I have seen them in action in the NKT for years) managed to keep the first round of U.S. ones pretty quiet, and there's no real way to contact the ISC unless you are in the know, which I think around where I live right now, most people in the know are the ones that replaced the Shugden Sangha.  So, um, Geshe-la is very old, and you know, we don't have as much money as the Dalai Lama to throw at things, nor have we given the Kalachakra to the masses over here--- so we can't get people to do our every bidding, like taking down a practice at whatever cost.
  So, they had much smaller protests than needed to be (I was prevented because of their logistics not being able to get it together).... I don't think we would still have a ban right now if everyone from the Dalai Lama school were up front about their affiliation.
[/quote]

[Blueupali]

Blueupali, I was just teasing you in my Kache Marpo post. I agree with where you're coming from, but I also understand there are some sharp actions that can sometimes seem unproductive. There is a broader picture.

I personally feel it would have been much more productive to simply state:

'You speak about tolerance, harmony and respect, yet the protesters have provided thorough evidence that you support the opposite actions against people. People want to hear your teachings, but the protests are disruptive. Can you please have an open dialogue with them and disprove their evidence? Do you believe a mere difference of opinion about Dorje Shugden validates the persecution of people's human and religious rights taking place against these practitioners?'

I agree with how you say that.  I am all for protesting, and would have loved to protest the Dalai Lama, to help all living beings.  Like I said, we need to make sure we have the right people speaking for us, and so somebody who can say like what you are saying, would be good.  I don't trust the Dalai Lama AT ALL so I don't think if he is composed on Shugden issues that he is surprised, that the 'ISC" person is going to really be doing necessarily a helpful job for the Shugden community, and if I say I don't think the Dalai Lama is surprised that I also don't think there is any logical chance for his being omniscient (though even my telephone could technically be a Buddha) but let's just say, I'm not buying every single thing in the ISC right now.

[empowerment]

Please try going on a demonstration.  I live in Asia but I am going to be demonstrating in the US soon. Why can't you do the same?

For me it is a priority.  Is it the same for you?

Well, you know, it's funny you ask, because I certainly did try to go to a Protest.  Somehow, some of the um "Shugden" people (which I am not buying, because I have seen them in action in the NKT for years) managed to keep the first round of U.S. ones pretty quiet, and there's no real way to contact the ISC unless you are in the know, which I think around where I live right now, most people in the know are the ones that replaced the Shugden Sangha.  So, um, Geshe-la is very old, and you know, we don't have as much money as the Dalai Lama to throw at things, nor have we given the Kalachakra to the masses over here--- so we can't get people to do our every bidding, like taking down a practice at whatever cost.
  So, they had much smaller protests than needed to be (I was prevented because of their logistics not being able to get it together).... I don't think we would still have a ban right now if everyone from the Dalai Lama school were up front about their affiliation.

[/quote]

Blueupali, forgive me but you sound confused. And also lacking in faith in ISC and NKT.  Sad.

A demonstration would do you good.  And it's not that difficult to find out if you really want to when and where they are happening.  I don't buy your excuses.

[Blueupali]

I lack faith in the Dalai Lama.  Sometimes we have people who come to the NKT who don't really seem to ever intend to do anything other than become "survivors."
  I lack faith that the ISC has always made the best choices.  Some of the choices the ISC have made come from the NKT.
  The NKT's main guru is very old and retired, and basically has to be very careful to protect his life so he can continue writing unsurpassed Dharma books.
  I have a great deal of devotion for Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso; to me he is Manjushri.  However, he is not managing the NKT.
  It is not a mystery that the Dalai Lama has said he wants to wipe our practice (that of Dorje Shugden) off the earth.  It is also not mysterious that DL tells his followers that we are engaging in non virtuous actions, also he has taught people about how bodhisattvas are allowed to lie (like by misdirecting a hunter about which way a deer went).  Okay.  But according to this "logic" we are doing a practice which is very nonvirtuous, though the very best Gelugpa lamas did/do this practice.  They can misdirect us, right, away from this practice because we are not "smart enough" to do what their um (gag) infallible guru said people should do, so it is okay, right for them to come to NKT centers, pose as people who really are interested in actually being a genuine practitioner, but the whole time trying to convince everyone we are a cult.  It's fine, right?  I mean, according to them it's not like we have dharma that they are interfering with.... so just lie and act like Geshe-la thinks that medicine is bad, or that they have been brainwashed into other nonsense that the Ven. guru Geshe-la absolutely didn't teach.  Geshe-la's dharma is unmistaken; protesting the Dalai Lama is great, but if we have a bunch of guys running around trying to cause problems, who demonstrate their unwillingness to bring the right points at the right times (like some of the ISC spokespeople from the U.S.--- left a lot of the really important stuff out about the actual human rights violations).  Then they want to ask for these same people to have a dialogue with the DL?  Okay, how about with Sonam Rinchen or somebody.... not somebody who will let the Dalai Lama off, or make us look bad....
  To clarify:  I like that we protest, I love Ven. Geshe-la (founder of NKT) but I do not for one second believe we have people who are uninterested in making the Dalai Lama look good, to protect his reputation, to help destroy this practice, who are in the ISC and NKT.