OK Blueupali I see where you are coming from.....the internet!
The people in the example you mention, and others I have known about who did similar things to these Germans, at the beginning were Geshe Kelsang's students - no doubt about that (although now of course they might deny that I suppose).
Later, for reasons only they know, their motivation changed and they began to follow other ideas/teachers and eventually stopped being a student of Geshe Kelsang.
I know personally (or did know) a fair number of these people. To me they did not seem like double-agents who had joined NKT to subvert it - they simply changed their minds later for some reason - in my view.
Your concern that there are people deliberately setting out to subvert from the beginning isn't based on sound reason or observation.
Isn't it the case that faith communities naturally have 'fall-out' - ie. people who leave later and do something else? Why should NKT be different?
I am not just coming from the internet, I have personally seen similar issues, where the people actively try to dissuade people from coming to NKT centers, talk against Geshe-la, talk pro-Dalai Lama, and then turn around and start teaching. So what is going on--- is that they are lying to us so they can pretend to be members of the NKT. THen maybe they can pretend to others that they do Shugden.
And to respond to psylotripa, it's not about winning, it's about who is representing us to the mainstream press, if we have people who lie their way into an organization, pretend to like the organization, but recently (or concurrently) try to get other people to leave the Shugden practice, (and I have seen this, and experienced this with my own eyes) then we just need to be more careful. Like when the U.S. spokespeople played the ban down, I know anyone is welcome in the NKT and there is no discrimination to join the teacher training and other programs.... during the empowerment of Dorje Shugden it is OPITIONAL in the NKT to take the heart committment. Like Ven. Geshe-la says, everyone has choice in dharma.... and I definately notice that Geshe-la and other valid teachers always give choice.
So, just like when in the panel discussion when one of the ISC people was talking about being a lawyer, and doing legal representation for a Tibetan who had been beaten by DL fanatics, this Tibetan kept asking him for proof he really a Shugden practitioner. Right there with the monk, okay. Not everyone who shows up at a Shugden Center has to be a Shugden person. Taking anyone's word for it, with very little investigation of them is really a bad idea, not because we have to win or lose, but because if we are not skillful, we will end up with someone pretending to go along with us, gain audience with the Dalai Lama for us even perhaps, and then really drop the ball on how they approach him. A strawman from the loyalist DL camp.
And no, I don't think anybody like Tenzin Peljor was with us in his heart, which is like most of the survivors. They are here to subvert our school, cause issues, and can be very difficult to deal with as it stops the real dharma from being taught in the center, so that little cult leaders can emerge, people can go with them, and then miraculously, people can switch to the Dalai Lama a few years later. Please, do not be so niave, put the "there aren't any Dalai Lama people in NKT-Centers" cool-aide down; it is a derivative of the "everyone be quiet and let the Dalai Lama do whatever he wants to your lineage cool-aide."
Do you want someone who can't bring up points like torture (for instance a Shugden man had his fingers cut off for his family's doing Shugden) by people like the U.S. spokespeople, but who say, oh, people can't go into "certain shops." It sounds like downplayed, especially since the "certain shops" are those owned by Tibetans in the settlements they live in, and they have to walk in many cases upwards of 15 miles both ways to even buy food. These are the same spokespeople who also failed to mention that the "diety" Shugden is enlightened; like I'm saying, even the DL says "diety" about Shugden. These protests in California were not well-publicized, the ISC had no way to contact them, the WSS didn't get back to me ever, and the protests switched from WSS to ISC without warning.
The issue is coming from the niave Americans who think nobody would lie to us. People we keep telling the DL to stop lying. The students follow the teacher, so please get my drift here, that sometimes people following the DL might be lying.... and saying they are doing Shugden people.... just be careful and make sure we get a valid person speaking for us and representing us, please.
If we get a dialogue with the DL, please request Sonam Rinchen to speak on our behalf, rather than some random semi-educated western person who claims to be a Shugden person. I need someone I trust to be with Shugden to talk.
