It is not the issue if Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or a spirit!

[yontenjamyang]

For Dorje Shugden practitioners, the Protector is a Buddha. For the Dalai Lama, he is a spirit who can harm him. We don't care for any of that. Just let us do our practice in peace. Don't harm the practitioners.

No use arguing if Dorje Shugden is a spirit or a Buddha, Each should just follow your Guru. If one has no Guru, one should just keep quiet. The point here in this controversy is not about the nature of the deity, it is about the freedom to practice and discriminations. Discriminations is against the very foundation of the Buddha Dharma ie Compassion for all beings. By banning the practice and throwing one group against another, that is the acts of politics to benefit selfs at the expense of others. That is not the practice of Buddhism whatever school. The Dalai Lama can just say, yes, the deity is a spirit, but respect the practitioners and have compassion on them. Instead, he said, the practice of the spirit shorten my life. That is the trigger to all this discriminations. The deity is just a device to the Dalai Lama's provocation. It is something practice by politician. Sad by true. If the Dalai Lama is Avalokitesvara, he can never be harmed. So those who support that notion at face value is just not rational and rather emotional. Those who are rational are caught between a rock and a hard place.

[vajrastorm]

Yes, if we examine carefully, the issue is not about Shugden being a spirit or not, from the side of the Dalai Lama and the CTA and followers of the Dalai Lama. If it were really about Shugden as a spirit, then how is it the Bon faith is allowed and is even classified as the 5th School of Tibetan Buddhism? The Bon faith has its roots in spirit-belief  /shamanism. We can still recall how Guru Rinpoche subdued the Bon spirits and converted them into unenlightened mundane Protectors.

 If , in the spirit of religious freedom, the Bons are allowed, by the Dalai Lama, to practice their faith, then it stands to reason, that logically (even if the Dalai Lama truly believes that Dorje Shugden is a spirit), in the same spirit of freedom of worship, Shugden worshippers should be allowed to continue with their Shugden practice.

Hence it is  glaringly obvious that this is a case of religious discrimination targeted at  the practice of Shugden only. Only Shugden followers are discriminated against. The 2 reasons why Shugden practice is not allowed, are the reason that the practice will shorten the Dalai Lama's life, and the reason that Shugden practice obstructs the cause of freedom of Tibet. The first reason does not hold water because the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig and cannot be harmed by  a spirit, unless he allows himself to be harmed. As for the  second reason, concerning Tibet's freedom from Chinese rule, even with the ban on Shugden practice, Tibet is still not going to get its freedom or independence. The recent announcement by Barrack Obama says it all. The US recognizes Tibet as part of China. In other words, the US has stated unequivocally that it does not recognize Tibet's struggle for Independence.

Thus, we come back to the issue of Shugden practice  as just being discriminated against for no solid reason. But with the discrimination comes the pain and the suffering of those discriminated against.

Why take away the pillar of Tibetan Buddhism, Guru Devotion, which ensures the survival of Tibetan Buddhism into the future, when spiritual leaders are no longer around, for the sake of 'political expedience'? Guru Devotion , the core of practice, came from the Buddha Himself. Ashvagosha wrote "the 50 Stanzas on Guru Devotion" in the 1st century BC and Tibetan Buddhism (arguably) began as late as the 7th Century in the reign of Bodhisattva King, Songtsen Gampo.

[Tenzin K]

The Dalai Lama claim that Dorje Shugden is a spirit that will harm him but in actual the practitioners of Dorje Shugden are being harm by the Tibetan government that Dalai Lama called for the ban. Whose is harmful here?

We have not witness any news of Dorje Shugden practitioners causes any spiritual and physical harm towards the Dalai Lama but the ban causes for may people that witness the suffering of the people. Read this: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/…/definitive-proof-of-the-ban-…/

The freedom that Dalai Lama campaigning is the same as what the Lord Shugden practitioners looking for…..FREEDOM for the country, FREEDOM for the religions! The Dalai Lama and many Tibetans have experienced the suffering from the invasion of Chinese but why the Dalai Lama impose the same suffering to it’s own people……why?

If we believe in karma, the Dalai Lama taken the freedom his own people how can he get the freedom for his country?
 

[DharmaSpace]

Anyone who swallow the statement that a monk who holds his vows can be harmed by a spirit, really does not understand much about Buddhism.

The fact we can be harmed is due to negative karma from the result of not holding his vows or previous infractions How can Chenrezig still have a mind that creates more negative karma? Makes no sense to me. 

[kelly]

Yes like what others said is not matter DS is a spirit or a Buddha as long as we practice in peace do not create discrimination to others in this case some of the practitioner even get beaten up this is so ridiculous . The CTA job is to protect the people not harming the people all of these Tibetan who live there are refugees so they should help each others in order to overcome difficulty not create more suffering.

[DharmaSpace]

I do think one of the central issues about this ban is the fact that Dorje Shugden is a spirit and can harm the Dalai Lama's life. A buddha obviously would not harm, and if Dorje Shgden is a spirit how can it harm the Dalai Lama?

[kris]

i agree with @yontenjamyang, @vajrastorm, it is really not about whether Dorje Shugden is Buddha or not. We can argue for 3 eons and still there is no conclusion. There are many people out there who think Buddha evil, so does it give us the rights to discriminate them? Does that give us rights to stop them from practicing what they are practicing?

Yes, it is indeed about freedom to practice your faith, and CTA is purposely make their citizen ignorant about such basic human rights and instigate their people to incite violence for people who stand up for this basic human rights. However, there are lights, many of the younger generations are questioning this because younger generations are getting more and more information from internet and not just from CTA alone.

[fruven]

It becomes politically motivated when people are incited to act against the Dorje Shugden practitioners. That is forcing your view on others. Forcing your view on others does not clear misunderstanding but actually increases more misunderstanding. We should do not that as Buddhist because creating disharmony and segregation are the opposites of what Buddha's taught.

In regards to spirits worship then there we should not have oracle anymore because people might think it is calling for spirits' help and this creates more misunderstanding on the advise of not seeking spirit for help. One should abandon all contact to taking trances because we can rely on living gurus who are enlightened for help instead.

[yontenjamyang]

The irony is that the Dalai Lama and the CTA as cronies labels Shugdenpas as the Taliban of Buddhism. It is the pot calling the kettle black. Only in this case the kettle is not black. The only Talibans in Buddhism are the Dalai Lama and the CTA for there are imposing a ban on a religious practice similar to the Taliban defacing the Bamiyan Buddhas.

The Dalai Lama and the CTA are not practicing the very religion there are suppose to be practicing, Buddhism. It is an amazingly basic practice in Buddhism; compassion for all. It is not compassion when one has compassion for all minus one. That is against the very basic tenets of all major religion actually.

[grandmapele]

This is starting to look amusing. Maybe, I am too new to Buddhism. Maybe, the issue is that Chenrezig is a Bodhisattva and not yet Buddha. So, he can still fall back to samsara. By that, does it mean that a Bodhisattva still has karma? If so, then that way a spirit can still harm him especially a very powerful spirit that can affect the outcome in the fight for Tibet's independence. Sorry for the very babyish reasoning, duh.....

[pgdharma]

For Dorje Shugden practitioners, the Protector is a Buddha. For the Dalai Lama, he is a spirit who can harm him.

If the Dalai Lama can be harmed or his life shortened by a spirit than he is not an Enlightened Being. He is not Avalokiteshvara

No use arguing if Dorje Shugden is a spirit or a Buddha, Each should just follow your Guru. If one has no Guru, one should just keep quiet. The point here in this controversy is not about the nature of the deity, it is about the freedom to practice and discriminations. Discriminations is against the very foundation of the Buddha Dharma ie Compassion for all beings. By banning the practice and throwing one group against another, that is the acts of politics to benefit selfs at the expense of others. That is not the practice of Buddhism whatever school. The Dalai Lama can just say, yes, the deity is a spirit, but respect the practitioners and have compassion on them.

Agree with you, yontengjamyang. No one, even the Dalai Lama has the right to prevent anyone from practicing what they believe in.

Instead, he said, the practice of the spirit shorten my life. That is the trigger to all this discriminations. The deity is just a device to the Dalai Lama's provocation. It is something practice by politician. Sad by true. If the Dalai Lama is Avalokitesvara, he can never be harmed. So those who support that notion at face value is just not rational and rather emotional. Those who are rational are caught between a rock and a hard place.

[Gabby Potter]

Yes, I don't this even matters. Nechung is an unenlightened protector or some would rather to call him a spirit, but still HH the Dalai Lama would seek prophecies and answers from him and why is that? Why isn't that allowed on Dorje Shugden when He's actually an enlightened Buddha.