is calling him "False Dalai Lama" going to help?

[Blueupali]

I am definately in favor of calling the "Dalai Lama" false.
  First, he is a dictator, is not my lama, and never will be.
  2nd, since the time of the 5th Dalai I am not sure we have been able to find the Dalai Lamas, because the 5th brutally murdered innocent Kagyupas and sent the 10th Karmapa into exile for his life, and had Tulku Dragpa Gyeltzen murdered.  So, enlightened, uh, no....
  If the 5th isn't enlightened (and i know Karmapa and Dorje Shugden to both be perfect beings so harming them is not a good sign) then how do we get a succession to the 14th? We don't, we just find people someone wants to put in power.
  3rd: Since I have no faith in anything to do with the 14th "Dalai Lama" except for his utter lack of logic-- then I want to make it clear that I am not saying, "oh great respectful leader, stop lying" I am saying, you are false, and stop lying, which I agree, does help people look it up more--- the Dalai Lama was temporal leader and decided to take over the Gelugpas with a split--- tried the same on the Kagyupa and had tried to merge all of Buddhism under himself in the 1960s or 1970s... I am as impressed with him as with any king or dictator.... but he is not a Buddha....

[MoMo]

Names calling and hurling abusive accusation will not win Shugdenpa the ultimate war of up lifting the ban. It might catch the attention of the media but not for long. The non-Buddhist or the rest of world will just shook their shoulder walking pass the protest claiming it’s a Tibetan conflict and had nothing to do with them.
Just as the conflict in the middle-east, ask ourselves how often that we took the initiative to research into it in-depth every time it was on news?  Yes, we can hold protest on the segregation and the suffering of Shugdenpa in Tibetan community but the ultimate right things to do is to hold our practice and vows dearly and be the role model in conduct for others to emulate, to promote Shugden Lama such as Pabongkha Chocktrul Rinpoche,Trijang Chocktrul, Domo Geshe Rinpoche…etc  and let the world know there were other attained Lama who was on par or even greater than HHDL!  It is very important to promote the lineage master of past and present so that they become every influential on inter-national stage to disseminate the practice to every corner of earth for it preservations. When Shugdenpa grows in number, the ban will died on it’s own accord.

[Matibhadra]

Names calling and hurling abusive accusation

Your problem is that you want to abet a criminal, he evil criminal dalie, and therefore you misperceive denouncing such criminal as “name calling” or “hurling abusive accusation”.

Therefore, the root of your dissatisfaction is to be found only within yourself, in your own accomplicty with the criminal and his crimes. Only you, reviewing your own motivations, can fix it.

will not win Shugdenpa the ultimate war of up lifting the ban.

The only war Shugdenpas, and Buddhists in general, need to win is the internal war against their own evil tendencies and actions, such as supporting crimes and criminals, as exemplified by the evil dalie. Buddhists, Shugdenpas included, fight no external war.

It might catch the attention of the media but not for long.

Instead of being concerned with your inner accomplicity with the criminal dalie and his crimes, you are concerned with lasting media attention, that is, with the eight mundane concerns such as fame and reputation.

As long as you do not give up the eight mundane concerns, you will be unable to avoid fighting imaginary external wars, and you will always support and abet criminals just because they are famous and enjoy media attention.

The non-Buddhist or the rest of world will just shook their shoulder walking pass the protest claiming it’s a Tibetan conflict and had nothing to do with them.

Forget about the opinion of the rest of the world. Try to be a good person yourself, and to give up supporting and abetting brutal criminals together with their crimes against humanity. This way you will win the only war which matters, whatever the world says.

Just as the conflict in the middle-east, ask ourselves how often that we took the initiative to research into it in-depth every time it was on news?

This is irrelevant, and never a reason to support and abet criminals such as the evil dalie together with their crimes as you propose.

Yes, we can hold protest on the segregation and the suffering of Shugdenpa in Tibetan community but the ultimate right things to do is to hold our practice and vows dearly and be the role model in conduct for others to emulate,

Then according to you “holding practice and vows” and being a “role model” means to support and abet brutal criminals and violators of human rights, such as the evil dalie, whatever may the the crimes against humanity they perpetrate, right?

to promote Shugden Lama such as Pabongkha Chocktrul Rinpoche,Trijang Chocktrul, Domo Geshe Rinpoche…etc

Pure lamas, Shugdenpas or not, hardly need to be promoted. Who needs promotion are people like you, infected by the eight mundane concerns.

and let the world know there were other attained Lama who was on par or even greater than HHDL!

What a shame to compare pure lamas with a brutal violator of human rights, such as the evil dalie.

It is very important to promote the lineage master of past and present so that they become every influential on inter-national stage to disseminate the practice to every corner of earth for it preservations.e

You try to mix Dharma with politics, infected as you are with the eight mundane concerns. Pure lamas do not need to be influential on the international stage.

What pure lamas require, so that their teachings are disseminated, is first and foremost students free from the eight mundane concerns, not corrupted as you are by an obsession for fame, prestige, power, and influence.

When Shugdenpa grows in number, the ban will died on it’s own accord.

Forget about numbers and bans. Try first to kill your own accomplicity with brutal violators of human rights, such as the evil dalie, itself rooted in your impure attachment to the eight mundane concerns, such as fame, influence, and reputation.

[psylotripitaka]

Actually Momo, if u speak with the protesters u will find that many non-Buddhist people that happen to see the signs are very interested to hear about what is happening.

The DLCTA has been respectfully asked for many many years to have dialogue and to stop persecution and they've responded by increasing pervasive persecution. The time for being overly polite has passed. It is time to call it like it is.


If the DLCTA would have just acted with loving kindness, he would have been able to teach and help people without a tarnished reputation and protests at all his international functions. Envision for a moment what the international Buddhist community would be like today if he was a nice person!

Nobody wants to be spending their money and time traveling, organizing, or protesting the DLCTA. But the blatant disregard for human rights demands a stronger more blunt response now.

I know people feel uncomfortable with a "holy" person being called false or hypocrite or dictator or liar, but these accurate labels would never have been necessary if he didn't act contrary to loving kindness.

The fact that we have to keep discussing this over and over and over again shows how dense the wool of charisma is that has been pulled over everybody's eyes. You know things have really got off track when people have to tell the "Buddha of Compassion" to stop harming others and desecrating the 3 Holy Jewels!

[psylotripitaka]

Thank you Matibhadra for taking so much time to be such a valuable voice of reason in this forum.

[psylotripitaka]

Also MOMO, because of the pervasive and very localized methodology of persecution, the number of Dorje Shugden practitioners is not enough to cause the persecution to stop. There is already an enormous number of people in this world relying on Dorje Shugden, so clearly your last statement is insufficient.

[lotus1]

Whether is Dalai Lama or ISC, I would still believe the ideas of all these are for the bigger picture. It is all a divine play in order for more people to get to know Dorje Shugden and do his practice. It is not logical for Dalai Lama to contradicting himself as well as for ISC to call Dalai Lama as false DL. However, from the act of both parties, the practice of Dorje Shugden spread.
Have you all read about this article? This is very interesting and makes a lot of sense.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/thanks-to-the-dalai-lama-2/

[Matibhadra]

Whether is Dalai Lama or ISC, I would still believe the ideas of all these are for the bigger picture.

The problem with your “bigger picture” theory is that it attemps at justifying and divinizing a brutal criminal and violator of human rights, the evil dalie, together with his crimes.

It is a case of what is known as a “theodicy”, or a theory aiming at justifying and divinizing evil, so common in Abrahamic genocidal ideologies such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It has to do with religious fanaticism and dirty power politics, but is completely extraneous to Buddhism.

It is not logical for Dalai Lama to contradicting himself as well as for ISC to call Dalai Lama as false DL.

It is not that denouncing a criminal such as the evil dalie is “not logical”, it is just that it contradicts the feelings of someone like you, inclined to justify and divinize evil and evildoers.

[DharmaSpace]

No one who is a part of the this Dorje Shugden ban on both sides, is free from being angry and frustrated at probably the immovability of the other side. I think ISC had no choice but to do the demonstrations, and they have found that saying the Dalai Lama is False does attract the attention they need to bring to the world.

But today we know the previous Trijang Rinpoche have mentioned that in the future Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama are at odds but do not lose faith in both...  So should we be so antagonistic towards the Dalai Lama? The Dalai Lama is for me the top scholar of our planet in terms of his knowledge and skill in giving the dharma to others, all the faults we see of him is manifested so that the world buys into the story of Dorje Shudgen versus Dalai Lama. We do not need to judge his Holiness, karma will take care of him if he has transgressed. In my heart the 14th Dalai Lama is the real mccoy, it is not so easy to emulate a high lama with a particular rank not just a smiling face, charisma and scholarship will just cut it. When one is giving dharma to 70k people in a stadium one must be like Buddha like able to tame each mind at the same time, with just same speech.


I a against the ban the Dalai Lama has put in place, but I do not think he is false though. As I said, if the dalai lama is the evil fox that he is, there is always the immovable and incorruptible KARMA judge. No one gets away from the laws of Karma. There is a huge difference between, the Dalai Lama is saying something false and the Dalai Lama is false. I choose to believe the former. 

[psylotripitaka]

Dharmaspace,

Regarding Trujang Dorjechang's comment, there are two considerations that come to mind:

1) to understand why Trijang Rinpoche would make such a comment about the Dalai Lama, we should not forget the context - audience, social politics - that requires such niceties.

2) have you ever considered that his meaning may be that we should not lose faith in the Dalai Lama's potential to become a Buddha, or faith that he will lift the ban, just as Buddha once said it is ok to kill your mother but his meaning was the mother of our suffering - self grasping ignorance.

[Matibhadra]

But today we know the previous Trijang Rinpoche have mentioned that in the future Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama are at odds but do not lose faith in both...

Actually there is never a need to lose faith in anyone, including the evil dalie. Every single sentient being is endowed with buddha nature, and will eventually reach the supreme state of buddhahood, and the evil dalie is no exception.

Still, this is no reason to support and abet the criminal, together with his gruesome crimes against humanity. If it were, every single criminal should be supported and abetted, because they are all endowed with buddha nature as much, and all worth our faith.

Great masters such as the Buddha and Trijang Rinpoche express themselves in deep, multi-layered ways, and one should be careful so as not to simplistically take their expressions at face value, but rather check them, as one would check gold before the purchase.

“As the wise test the purity of gold by burning, cutting and examining it by means of a piece of touchstone, so should you accept my words after examining them and not merely out of regard and reverence for me”, said the Buddha, as recorded in the Jnanasara-samuccaya.

So should we be so antagonistic towards the Dalai Lama?

You are under a mistaken impression. Denouncing the lies and crimes of the evil dalie does not mean being “antagonistic” towards anyone, but merely not supporting and abetting his crimes against humanity.

The Dalai Lama is for me the top scholar of our planet in terms of his knowledge and skill in giving the dharma to others,

Someone who lies is never a “scholar”, maybe an intellectualized monster at best.

all the faults we see of him is manifested so that the world buys into the story of Dorje Shudgen versus Dalai Lama.

Seeing faults where there are faults is never a problem, bur rather a solution. The problem is trying to cover anyone's faults under the cloak of pseudo-religious, politically motivated stories, as you do, out of your own stubborn, deep-seated accomplicity with the criminal and his crimes. 

In my heart the 14th Dalai Lama is the real mccoy,

This is just natural. Every fanatic admirer and follower of a criminal would say the same.

it is not so easy to emulate a high lama with a particular rank not just a smiling face, charisma and scholarship will just cut it.

This is exactly the case with the evil dalie, who shows his utter lack of charisma and scholarship in so many occasions, such as when he ridiculously loses his temper with a peaceful nun whose simple question he is unable to answer; or when he furiously promises in front an assembly of monks to wage a religious persecution “worse than the Cultural Revolution”; or when he praises and encourages bloody racist riots and self-immolations; or when he brazenly lies denying any witch-hunt.

When one is giving dharma to 70k people in a stadium one must be like Buddha like able to tame each mind at the same time, with just same speech.

Then according to you Hitler, who was able with his powerful speech to tame millions of people at the same time, must have been a super-Buddha, right?

I a against the ban the Dalai Lama has put in place, but I do not think he is false though.

Since the evil dalie himself cynically denies any ban to the general public, while furiously promoting it within Tibetan communities and monasteries, he could hardly be more false than just this.

There is a huge difference between, the Dalai Lama is saying something false and the Dalai Lama is false.

The very meaning of “being false” is saying something false; there is no other meaning.

Besides, buddhas do not lie, do not kill, and do not create schism with the Sangha. The brutal devious criminal dalie is no buddha.

I choose to believe the former.

The perverted belief that a crooked criminal such as the evil dalie is some kind of supreme being (“high lama”, “Chenrezig”, or whatever) does not make him better, but surely makes you worse. And why? Because you will see evil as supreme, and thus become what you admire.

[Shugdener]

I personally think that calling him false Dalai Lama isn't going to lift the ban. In Buddhism, it is thought that we should not use violence and harsh words and I think we should approach this conflict in a more peaceful method.

After all, the Dalai Lama wouldn't just impose a ban for nothing, It is probably being done as a way to promote Dorje Shugden and make Dorje Shugden more well known and popular.

[Matibhadra]

I personally think that calling him false Dalai Lama isn't going to lift the ban.

Any ban on religious freedom is based on lies, and the only way to get rid of such bans is to denounce such lies.

For instance, the ban on religious freedom imposed by the Catholic Church during the European Middle Ages was based on lies such as the “infallibility” of the pope. As soon as European peoples got rid of such lies, because they were denounced, they got rid of that ban.

In the same way, the ban on religious freedom imposed by the feudal theocratic Tibetan puppet government in exile is based on lies such as the “divinity” of the criminal impostor dalie, whereby as soon as such lies are gotten rid of, that ban will necessarily disappear.

You allege that you want to “lift the ban”, but you refuse to denounce the lie on which such ban is based. This means that you actually don't want to get rid of any ban, and that you are just lying to yourself and others.

In Buddhism, it is thought that we should not use violence and harsh words

Violence is in the lie, not in denouncing it. And the harshness is in the ruthless criminal dalie, not in the words describing such harshness. For instance, the harshness is in the hell realms, not in the sutra words describing them.

Under the pious, sanctimonious pretext of “rejecting” violence and harsh words, what you hypocritically want is to abet the criminal dalie, together with his violence and harsh words, which are his main activities.

and I think we should approach this conflict in a more peaceful method.

There is nothing “peaceful” in abetting a violator, the evil dalie, together with his ruthless violence.

After all, the Dalai Lama wouldn't just impose a ban for nothing,

Every criminal commits his crimes for some reason, such as his evil, criminal impulses, and the evil dalai is no exception.

Still, part of the reason why the evil dalai is able to impose his ban on religious freedom is the widespread hoax about his “divinity”. Therefore, since you want to keep promoting this hoax, you became part of the problem, while hypocritically claiming to want a solution.

It is probably being done as a way to promote Dorje Shugden and make Dorje Shugden more well known and popular.

Dorje Shugden is a buddha, and does not need to be promoted, let alone on the basis of lies and violence.

Your perverted ideology is similar to Christianity, which has always welcomed persecutions against Christians, whom they call “martyrs”, as a means of self-promotion.

Your perverted ideology is also shared with the evil dalie, who welcomes and promotes gruesome self-immolations as a means of promoting his own anti-China political agenda.

According to your perverted ideology, the more persecution against other Shugdenpas the better, because like this you believe that your religious brand will profit.

Like many religionists, you want your religious brand to be hugely popular through such unscrupulous means, because you are driven by attachment to wordly success.

Bottom line you are insincere, this being why you support the evil dalie's hoax.

[psylotripitaka]

I just spoke with one of the ISC main organizers about this. They explained that it is helping immensely. Many people of the public and media and attendees of the Dalai Lama talks are intrigued by the use of the term 'false' and ask what is meant by it. They can immediately understand it is mainly because he is constantly lying and contradicting himself and this is easily verifiable by looking at quotes by him or watching recordings if him speak. The use of the term 'false' also helps because it reveals that he is not the real Dalai Lama and was going to be dethroned by parliament before China invaded, so this encourages Tibetans that it is ok to accept this is not the emanation of Chenrezig and it is ok to disagree with this person.

People need things to keep being put into perspective:

A person who disrespects their teachers, encourages persecution, and constantly lies and contradicts themself is not a Buddhist, not a valid teacher or representative of the 3 Holy Jewels, and should not be validated or trusted. By disrespecting his own teacher, Lhamo Dondrub has broken his connection to lineage blessings. Furthermore, he was wrongly chosen as the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama as is clearly explained in the Reting Lama issue, he has admitted publicly that he is not the incarnation of the Dalai Lama, and was about to be dethroned around the time the Chinese invaded. Though he has done some virtuous things in his life just as any sentient being does, he has no validity, and his silence and avoidance of debating the actual valid teachers shows this. Following him is due to infatuation with his personality, or the various pressures and real dangers of the social politics surrounding the controversy if one disagrees with him.

It is so sad really, because if he would have respected his lineage Gurus, and respected everyone's human religious rights, he would have been able to help people without all the disharmony, bad reputation and so forth.

Many people here bring up as a support for maintaining faith in him, that the late Trijang Dorjechang said to keep faith in Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama, but this was said before the Dalai Lama had engaged in his reckless actions, and we must also not fail to recognize the context of social politics in which such a thing was said. Rinpoche still lived in the Tibetan community and still had direct dialogue with the Dalai Lama so of course he would publicly say to keep faith. Imagine the Chaos if he would've said differently or told the truth about this Lhamo Dondrub. Also his meaning of 'keep faith' may have more specifically referred to faith in his potential to become a Buddha, or faith that he would lift the ban. We can still respect someone as a person, and respect the virtuous things they've done, yet lose respect for them as a valid Teacher, or lose respect for the honesty, accuracy, or validity of their word; lose respect for their harmful actions and so forth.

If he were to admit his lineage Gurus were right and he is wrong, lift the ban, tell his followers to respect Buddhas teachings and so respect and help everyone including Dorje Shugden practitioners. If he also shows great remorse for his many lies and encouragement of harmful actions, goes into prolonged solitary retreat on Vajrasattva, and comes out of retreat as a humble monk that has great admiration and respect for his Gurus and everyone in the international Dharma community, maybe, just maybe at that point would he become someone worthy of respect and who's words might be trustworthy. Until then, wisdom and common sense says to rely upon people that respect their lineage Gurus, and who try to set a good example by acting in accordance with Buddhas teachings.

[psylotripitaka]

http://internationalshugdencommunity.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Reting-Lama-How-He-Chose-the-False-Dalai-Lama.pdf