CALL FOR AN APOLOGY FROM ADMIN AND FORUM MEMBERS

[psylotripitaka]

While I have been understanding of the predicament some find themselves in trying to reconcile, what both Matibhadra and I are pointing out is that you cannot say you oppose the ban while at the same time praising the ban as the skillful means of a Buddha, and that in fact by doing so you become an accomplice to the criminal actions, are a hypocrite, undermine the efforts to stop the ban and its harmful effects, and should not consider yourself a genuine Buddhist.

By blabbering on and on about the Dalie Lama being a Buddha and in fact even writing things such as a long ridiculous article thanking him for establishing the ban, forum members of Dorje Shugden.com and the admin themselves do not seem to realize that in doing so they are flat out supporting the ban and all the suffering it causes, regardless of all their contradictory efforts to the contrary.

So I say to the admin of this site and forum members:

Either:

A) you are a genuine Buddhist that is working to end the tyranny and negativity of the ban, and in so doing you not only acknowledge the Dalie Lama and his inappropriate actions for what they are, but stop the non-sense of praising his heinous actions as those of a Buddha and instead call it out for what it is as me and Matibhadra and the ISC are doing, OR,

B) you continue to undermine the efforts to end the tyranny and persecution by praising the Dalie Lama, his ban, and thereby its results as the skillful means of a Buddha worthy of everybody's sincere thanks, and in so doing encourage the infliction of suffering and the committing of crimes.

You cannot do both, for they are necessarily contradictory.

If you genuinely wish to end the persecution, I believe that all of you who are continually promoting and praising the Dalie Lama and his ban as being the skillful means of a Buddha owe a huge apology to all those suffering from this ban, and should immediately stop justifying and praising the Dalie Lama's actions. If you do not, you are admitting your accomplicity to the Dalie Lama, a supporter of human and religious rights abuse!

[psylotripitaka]

Don't get me wrong, the majority of Dorje Shugden information in this site is wonderful, and by no means do I not feel deep gratitude for the hard work of presenting it, but this reconciliation business that has resulted in 1000's of posts year after year praising the Dalie Lama and the ban needs to stop!

[DharmaSpace]

Even if you get an apology? What good would it do? You are right and everyone else is wrong?

Are we any closer to ending the ban?

I think people are on this forum are working towards that end to help bring the ban to an end? Or do you have another agenda being on this forum? 

I don't get what you're really after.

[Aurore]

You cited for the admin and forum members take on the role of being genuine Buddhist.

Can we agree everyone has at least ONE singular goal? The wish to end the Shugden ban.
Let's not look at differences but similarity. A common goal for unity.

This to me is an act of genuine Buddhist.
Seeing your enemy as friends is Buddhist.
Being kind to someone hurt you is Buddhist.
Lifting the ban in a peaceful manner is Buddhist.

[psylotripitaka]

Dharmaspace and Aurore,

You have both avoided addressing the issue at hand.

Seeing enemies as kind is a special view of lojong that enables us to generate realizations, but it does not mean we praise the negative behavior of others. It is contradictory to say we oppose the ban and at the same time praise the ban, the negative impact it has, and the persons perpetuating it. Is that not logical?

Put it like this: praising the Dalie Lama and the ban and thanking him for it publicly as you constantly do, is the same as praising the person beating your child, regarding their actions as skillful, and justifying these things in all sorts of ways such as telling your child it's their karma. Do you not see the hypocrisy and insensitivity of that? Am I being unreasonable here?

Ever since I was a toddler, I've understood  the purpose of an apology to be a way of healing and showing remorse for our insensitive actions.

My agenda in this specific topic, what I am after, is to recommend people seriously consider the contradiction of their behavior in this matter, to recognize it is insensitive and hypocritical, to apologize to everyone in general for praisin the ban, and to stop praising the Dalie Lama's ban and its negative impact as being the skillful means of s Buddha. I do not believe it is unreasonable to ask for such a simple act of consideration from Buddhists.

I do not contend that the Dalai Lama has engaged in virtuous actions that have been helpful, or that his negative actions can be transformed into the path by practitioners with such strength. What I am taking issue with very specifically is the continuity of the admin and forum members not seeing the contradiction and insensitivity inherent in praising the ban and its effects as the skillful means of Chenrezig. Am I being unreasonable in asking you to consider more deeply what I've said rather than feel attacked and defensive?  Is it too much to ask you to explain how your actions in question are NOT supporting the ban and harmful actions?

[Matibhadra]

Seeing your enemy as friends is Buddhist.

Seeing the enemy of others as your friend is no Buddhism, but sheer depravity.

Being kind to someone hurt you is Buddhist.

Being kind to someone who hurts others is no Buddhism, but sheer depravity.

You misuse lojong teachings to disguise your own depravity. You are a true dalaite.

[fruven]

While I have been understanding of the predicament some find themselves in trying to reconcile, what both Matibhadra and I are pointing out is that you cannot say you oppose the ban while at the same time praising the ban as the skillful means of a Buddha, and that in fact by doing so you become an accomplice to the criminal actions, are a hypocrite, undermine the efforts to stop the ban and its harmful effects, and should not consider yourself a genuine Buddhist.

By blabbering on and on about the Dalie Lama being a Buddha and in fact even writing things such as a long ridiculous article thanking him for establishing the ban, forum members of Dorje Shugden.com and the admin themselves do not seem to realize that in doing so they are flat out supporting the ban and all the suffering it causes, regardless of all their contradictory efforts to the contrary.

So I say to the admin of this site and forum members:

Either:

A) you are a genuine Buddhist that is working to end the tyranny and negativity of the ban, and in so doing you not only acknowledge the Dalie Lama and his inappropriate actions for what they are, but stop the non-sense of praising his heinous actions as those of a Buddha and instead call it out for what it is as me and Matibhadra and the ISC are doing, OR,

B) you continue to undermine the efforts to end the tyranny and persecution by praising the Dalie Lama, his ban, and thereby its results as the skillful means of a Buddha worthy of everybody's sincere thanks, and in so doing encourage the infliction of suffering and the committing of crimes.

You cannot do both, for they are necessarily contradictory.

If you genuinely wish to end the persecution, I believe that all of you who are continually promoting and praising the Dalie Lama and his ban as being the skillful means of a Buddha owe a huge apology to all those suffering from this ban, and should immediately stop justifying and praising the Dalie Lama's actions. If you do not, you are admitting your accomplicity to the Dalie Lama, a supporter of human and religious rights abuse!

Is it not forcing your opinions and views on others? I don't think you're respecting the freedom to express views here.

[fruven]

Seeing your enemy as friends is Buddhist.

Seeing the enemy of others as your friend is no Buddhism, but sheer depravity.

Being kind to someone hurt you is Buddhist.

Being kind to someone who hurts others is no Buddhism, but sheer depravity.

You misuse lojong teachings to disguise your own depravity. You are a true dalaite.

When you start attaching word 'depravity' to counter each sentence I doubt your sincerity of learning in this forum but just putting down on others.

[Matibhadra]

When you start attaching word 'depravity' to counter each sentence I doubt your sincerity of learning in this forum but just putting down on others.

I'm so sorry for my repetitive wording. Please replace “depravity” with “wickedness” in my second second sentence above, and with “moral turpitude” in the third.

Wording apart, what you want to say is that befriendng an obnoxious criminal such as the evil dalie is not a case of depravity, but of sincerely learning on this forum, is it?

[Dondrup Shugden]

This is a forum set up for every one willing are keen to voice their opinions.  Although each and everyone is entitled to their opinions, it is also a necessity to write with clarity not to harm or discourage others.  A forum is not about what is right nor wrong but to be supportive of each other to understand.

The common goal of participates of this forum is to remove the Ban.  There is really no one right way to do so and participation with the right motivation will create the cause for the Ban to be lifted.

The levels of understanding from each individual may differ and as such the thoughts expressed may also differ but let us accept the differences and assist each other for the final goal.

Let us not judge if the contributors to this forum or Buddhist or not.  May they all be Buddhists creating the cause for the goal of lifting the Ban.

Apology extended from pure view of non righteousness helps greatly in letting go.   

[psylotripitaka]

Fruven and Dondrub,

It is not possible to force our view on anyone here. I am sharing a logical perspective and asking people to explain themselves.

It is a contradiction to try protecting your friend as they're being beaten while at the same time thanking and praising the perpetrator for beating up your friend. Is it not?

[Matibhadra]

It is a contradiction to try protecting your friend as they're being beaten while at the same time thanking and praising the perpetrator for beating up your friend. Is it not?

You nailed it again.

This contradiction is explained by the fact that those thanking and praising the perpetrator, the evil dalie, are in fact not interested in protecting victimized Shugdenpas, but rather only in promoting their religious label using the suffering of others.

Such people claim to practice lojong teachings, but their claim is false because what they happily accept is not their own suffering, but rather the suffering of others, which they see as instrumental to promote a religious brand they feel attached to.

Such perverted, false Shugdenpas easily dismiss the suffering of the evil dalie's powerless victims as “just their own karma”, in order to protect the image of the perpetrator, on whom they shower praises, and with whom they would like to associate.

In other words, such pseudo-Shugdenpas are all too eager to offer life and limb of powerless, victimized Shugdenpas as human sacrifices to their Moloch, the evil dalie, in hopes of winning his favor, and sharing his international fame and prestige.

Bottom line, we are dealing with a bunch of greedy, unscrupulous, subservient politician-religionists whose main goal is to achieve the protection of the capo mafioso dalai lame, whom they call “His Holiness” and “Chenrezig”, and a place in his evil theocracy.

[Q]

Why is there need for an apology from anyone regarding their views on the Dalai Lama? That is just like saying Shugden practitioners should apologize to the CTA for their different views... this is not the way. We as Shugden practitioners should know by now the bitterness that intolerance have brought upon us, and here again, intolerance due to different views can be seen. How disappointing.

[psylotripitaka]

Q,

With regards to my own writing here, I have expressed what I believe in this matter, which is logical and common sense from the point of view of normal behavior. In my response to Dharmaspace and Aurore I use the word 'recommend', and I have politely asked people to explain the contradiction in their behavior regarding the point of this thread. So far nobody has addressed this or attempted to explain the hypocritical behavior or to clarify how praising the ban and Dalai Lama is NOT supporting the ban and its negative results.

Normally when we've sided with someone who hurt our friend, our insensitivity is also hurtful to our friend, so it is only natural to apologize and stop siding with the person who beat up our friend. That is common sense.

What I find peculiar and ironic here is that just as the Dalie Lama is evasive when confronted about supporting rights abuse, so the members of this forum are evading explaining why they are praising human rights abuse and its perpetrator as a wonderful thing.

As for Matibhadra's approach here, generally I don't see the usefulness of excessive name calling, but I believe this person is not only your "Atisha's cook", but they are bluntly calling out the contradiction of your behavior regarding the main logic of this topic. You can see through many of their posts the overarching theme is pointing out this very contradiction over and over again, and it keeps coming because not only does the hypocricy keep coming here, but nobody seems obliged to explain why exactly it is they think it's ok to praise the Dalie Lama's behavior.

Is it, or is it not correct Buddhist behavior to support and praise a perpetrator of human rights abuse? Can nobody here answer that simple question?

Why does Dorjeshugden.com support and praise the ban and a perpetrator of human rights abuse?

[Matibhadra]

What I find peculiar and ironic here is that just as the Dalie Lama is evasive when confronted about supporting rights abuse, so the members of this forum are evading explaining why they are praising human rights abuse and its perpetrator as a wonderful thing.

This is because such self-styled Shugdenpas are not interested in human rights at all, but rather merely want a place in the evil dalie's theocratic entourage. Therefore, such sycophants will go out of their way to show their subservience to the criminal, calling him “Chenrezig” and “His Holiness”, and saying that his victims, powerless Shugdenpas, are “just experiencing their own karma”.

As for Matibhadra's approach here, generally I don't see the usefulness of excessive name calling

If you are suggesting that I have engaged in any kind of “name calling” let alone an “excessive” one, I beg to disagree. I have consistently been most respectful of words such as “Lama”, “Chenrezig” or “His Holiness”, together with their meanings and referents, never allowing them to be tarnished through association with an evil violator of human rights such as the dalie lame.