Dorje Shugden oracle with Tsem Rinpoche

[Q]

Our Lama is none other than Dorje Shugden himself, without all the hissing and body shaking involved with oracle possession. When the Lama teaches, it is already the living Buddha Dorje Shugden teaching us. The Lama has omniscient wisdom, so why do they need to get questions answered by oracles? What is the function of the oracle if the Lama is already Dorje Shugden?

I have my own thoughts about its purpose, and I am greatly inspired by them, but I would love to hear what people think about my questions.

Very interesting thoughts, thanks for asking... it got me thinking after reading  your comment.

I can only think of a few situations where this applies... and one of it is as what eyeoftara have shared with you, that Lamas have many different levels. Just like Bodhisattvas have many different levels, so the assistance of the Dharma Protector is essential to receive a clearer answer for the growth of Dharma.

Another reason could be that it is for the benefit of the students and others that may be looking. Not all students have complete faith in their Lamas, so receiving blessings, advice and dharma teaching from Dorje Shugden would help them. At the same time, for onlookers that do not know the quality of the lama, which is whether he is genuine or not, they can observe how the protector treats the lama. There are many cases when the Dharma Protector, when displeased with a less genuine lama, he would not receive the offerings from the lama. So looking at this video, it is quite obvious that Tsem Tulku Rinpoche is doing his 'job' as a Dharma teacher very well.

My 3rd and final thought is more technical in regards to the omniscience of a lama. There are 2 possibilities when it comes to this
1) The lama does have full omniscience but due to the nature of being humble and also the tradition of Lama Tsongkhapa's lineage of not showing any form of supernatural abilities... the lama has to find an alternative way of 'getting advice' for certain issues pertaining to the growth of Dharma
2) The lama does have full omniscience but due to him taking the form as a samsaric being, he some what experience some limitations due to the limitations of the body. I thought of this is because I have read a Zen story of a highly attained meditation master, who have the ability of transferring his consciousness for body to body. And there was an incident when he transferred his consciousness into a bird, there after he was unable to utilize his abilities anymore due to the limitation of the body that his mind is in. So for this case, perhaps it is similar to this story

[VeronicaSmith]

It is so good to see that this rising star is seems of a lama in the Shugden world is doing good and he is having these extremely holy things for his followers and to spread the word of DS to the world too through his blog which is also very good! The people there on that day are so lucky and extremely blessed. I am sure they are so thankful of having such a wonderful guru for Shugden and they can see things like this. To be in close proximity of Dorje Shugden Himself is so lucky and full of blessings. I am actually envious. . I wish to see more from this rising star of the Shugden Lamas so please do more Tsem Rinpoche!

I hope this guru and how he is growing and doing these things and showing them to the world can help tremendously to the lifting of the DS ban and can save all the Shugden people who are being abused. I hope he will spread the word of DS more through his blog and I hope he does this well. Most importantly, I hope he is safe with his journey for Shugden as he will be threatened and I hope he will be safe to complete his goal and help Shugden with this ban.

[James Bond]

Its hard to believe that i was one of the lucky people to be there at the time of this trance. There were hundreds of people there, and i was one of them.

Before this trance i have never seen a live trance before. It was really special to me and i am sure it will the an event that i will never forget. Its good that this event happened in Kechara Forest Retreat. I hope that the blessing generated through this trance benefits everyone in the room at the time as well as contributes in the removal of obstacles for KFR.

I hope that in the future more events like this will happen in Kechara. It is very good for people to come and experience what it is like being so close to such an enlightened being such as Dorje Shugden. I know from experience it felt truly blessing.

[kris]

Rejoice! I watched the video and it is inspiring in may ways. In the article, it says,

For the first time in history, a Tibetan oracle had the invocation done for the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden to enter or take trance, and there were no Tibetan monks involved.

On top of that, I think this may be the first time Dorje Shugden has taken trance in public in Malaysia. Chojela (Panglung Kuten) is quite old now, and I do hope He can recover well from the trance.

I pray Dorje Shugden would take trance again in Malaysia, so that there are more people in that part of the world be benefited from His blessings!

[DharmaSpace]

Our Lama is none other than Dorje Shugden himself, without all the hissing and body shaking involved with oracle possession. When the Lama teaches, it is already the living Buddha Dorje Shugden teaching us. The Lama has omniscient wisdom, so why do they need to get questions answered by oracles? What is the function of the oracle if the Lama is already Dorje Shugden?

I have my own thoughts about its purpose, and I am greatly inspired by them, but I would love to hear what people think about my questions.

I think, it is great to think one's lama as Dorje Shugden. However if one is convinced with the enlightened nature of Dorje Shudgen, then if we have more than one Dorje Shudgen around, much more dharma work can be spread and more sentient beings can be benefitted.

There are 84,000 teachings of the buddha that benefit 84k types of minds, and there will be people who might be initially less impressed with a human lama, of course with learning and more dharma they will see that their lamas and teachers are more important for their spiritual progress in the long run. Looking at the various high lamas of the Gelug order who still consult with Dorje Shugden Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche , there must be benefit to consult Dorje Shudgen otherwise why continue such a tradition?

[fruven]

Our Lama is none other than Dorje Shugden himself, without all the hissing and body shaking involved with oracle possession. When the Lama teaches, it is already the living Buddha Dorje Shugden teaching us. The Lama has omniscient wisdom, so why do they need to get questions answered by oracles? What is the function of the oracle if the Lama is already Dorje Shugden?

I have my own thoughts about its purpose, and I am greatly inspired by them, but I would love to hear what people think about my questions.

I think, it is great to think one's lama as Dorje Shugden. However if one is convinced with the enlightened nature of Dorje Shudgen, then if we have more than one Dorje Shudgen around, much more dharma work can be spread and more sentient beings can be benefitted.

There are 84,000 teachings of the buddha that benefit 84k types of minds, and there will be people who might be initially less impressed with a human lama, of course with learning and more dharma they will see that their lamas and teachers are more important for their spiritual progress in the long run. Looking at the various high lamas of the Gelug order who still consult with Dorje Shugden Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche , there must be benefit to consult Dorje Shudgen otherwise why continue such a tradition?

As mentioned there are people who tend to believe in the words spoken by an oracle rather than the lama. This is due to their karma. Therefore the protector has kindly show his present through the oracle and gave teachings and advises which will benefit this group of people. The fact that taking trance is so widespread indicated that there are many Tibetans who think highly of the oracle and would heed his advises. It is also part of culture of community in some Asian countries having strong belief in mediums and oracles.

[yontenjamyang]

Dorje Shugden and all Protector oracle are vehicles to do the Lama's work in the extra ordinary way, because the Lama manifested as a human and focuses on teaching he Dharma. So if the Lama needs resources or need to convince people who believe in the Oracle/Protector more that the Lama, the Lama let the Protector do the job.
In Asian cultures such and Tibet and Malaysia, society have a strong tradition of mediums albeit of worldly deities and hence oracles is a very good way to "convince" people of the Dharma.

However, we observe that NKT do not have oracle because in Western society, the tradition of mediums are not common. Hence, there is no need for oracles.

[prodorjeshugden]

It is great to hear that the Panglung Oracle went into trance at Kechara Forest Retreat.
Kechara must be a really big Centre to have the opportunity to have the great 7th Panglung kuten come and take trance.
These are all signs that Kechara Wil grow really big in future and boosted by the blessings of Dorje Shugden and Kache Marpo Kechara will benefit countless people in many ways in future.

For the first rime ever the invocations for the trance was done by Kecharians, who under the guidance of Tsem Rinpoche managed to successfully invoke to Dharma Protectors.

I truly rejoice in the news of this, and may Dorje Shugden bless millions through Kechara.

L

[Tenzin K]

Wow. This is really a great blessing for the people at Kechara. Having the 7th Palung Kuten to take trance of Lord Shugden to bless the people and the places is really an auspicious and great moment and this happen in Malaysia. This is how Dorje Shugden practices and faith has spread far all over the world.

Rejoice for the people in Kechara. I strongly believe this is all because of their great faith, merits and devotion to their Guru and would have this opportunity arrises. As going through the pic we can see Dorje Shugden performs the Vajra dance which is so bless for clearing obstacles.

One of the great moment I read from this event is Kache Marpo gave a dharma talk. Form this event it really shows how close Dorje Shugden can be with one if their samaya is good with their Guru and I have no doubt that Tsem Rinpoche would definitely a great Shugden Lama that tirelessly working very hard to spread the Lama Tsongkhapa doctrine to benefit many people.

[James Bond]

I remember that day. I was fortunate enough to be there when the trance took place. The hall was filled with people and you could feel a change in the atmosphere when the trance took place. I don't think i will ever experience something of that spiritual calibre again. Truly a once in a lifetime event.

The most exciting part of the event however was when we had our chance to meet the oracle when he was taking trance. This was so thrilling for me and i will never forget that moment. I wish to have another chance to experience that again.

[VeronicaSmith]

There is more to this uprising power! Tsem Rinpoche is making more impacts and articles here fast and I knew that he could help on this scene and with shugden. He is making a statement about the worship and for the religious freedom of all shugden people.

It must have been amazing to be there. To be in the presence of the protector. He is truly spreading the truth and the dharma. His students must appreciate him and support him well through all this because it is them against the world now. Carry on Tsem Rinpoche!