Author Topic: Dorje Shugden's parents  (Read 10652 times)

Ratna Shugden

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Dorje Shugden's parents
« on: October 21, 2015, 06:04:44 AM »
"Born from the cells of the father, the King of Obstructors,
and the supreme mother, Queen of Existence,
one whose body mandala of Dorje Shugden's five families, chief and entourage,
in their great wrathful palace, was instantly complete, praise to you."-Kaybje Dagpo Dorje Chang's praise to Dorje Shugden

Who are the King of Obstructors and Queen of Existence?
Are they of the asura realm in the six realms of existence of samsara?

psylotripitaka

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 07:32:21 AM »
I don't have any more time to look, but here are a few leads in your search:

In Trijang Rinpoche's commentary to Infinite Aeons on page 102, he gives a bit of detail about the meaning of this verse as being from the common point of view. The Lord of Obstructors is Ganesh, whose other name in Sanskrit is Vinayaka. There are various aspects, both worldly and Enlightened. For further reading, here is a start from H.E.Tsem Rinpoche:

http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/buddhas-dharma/ganapati-ragavajra.html

Trijang Rinpoche then says "Machig, Sole-Mother, Queen of Existence". I do not have a definitive answer to this, but I'll share some speculation. The only Machig I've ever heard of or found information on is Machig Labdron. She is said to be the same continuum as Prajnaparamita, Yeshe Tsogyal, and Arya Tara. Hence the titles Sole-Mother and Queen of Existence are often used in reference to these four dakinis. Palden Lhamo is also said to be a wrathful manifestation of Tara, and that she is one with VajraVetali who is the consort of Vajrabhairava. Other names for Palden Lhamo include Shridevi, Kalidevi, Remati, and Queen Parvati, and you will find some connections there with Vinayaka and Saraswati. The particular form of Panden Lhamo at Lhamo La-tso is Gyelmo Makzor Ma (Wylie: rgyal mo dmag zor ma "Queen Torma Mother") or Machik Pellha Zhiwé Nyamchen (Wylie: ma gcig dpal lha zhi ba'i nyams can "Pacified Expression of the Common Wife Panden Lhamo"), an unusually peaceful form of Panden Lhamo.[8] The lake is sometimes referred to as "Palden Lhamo Kalideva", which indicates that she is an emanation of the goddess Kali.

Anyways, sorry I don't have a definitive answer. I also don't quite get how these are the parents according to the common point of view, like, whose common view does Rinpoche mean?

Ratna Shugden

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2015, 07:57:47 AM »
Thanks for the leads.

Matibhadra

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2015, 03:05:17 AM »
Quote
"Born from the cells of the father, the King of Obstructors,
and the supreme mother, Queen of Existence,

Compassion is the king of obstructors, because it obstructs contaminated, self-cherishing pleasure.

Wisdom realizing emptiness is the queen of existence, because it realizes the very source of reality.

Therefore, Dorje Shugden is born of father compassion and mother wisdom realizing emptiness.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2015, 03:37:38 AM »
Quote
"Born from the cells of the father, the King of Obstructors,
and the supreme mother, Queen of Existence,

Compassion is the king of obstructors, because it obstructs contaminated, self-cherishing pleasure.

Wisdom realizing emptiness is the queen of existence, because it realizes the very source of reality.

Therefore, Dorje Shugden is born of father compassion and mother wisdom realizing emptiness.

Well said!

Ratna Shugden

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2015, 11:38:12 AM »
Quote
"Born from the cells of the father, the King of Obstructors,
and the supreme mother, Queen of Existence,

Compassion is the king of obstructors, because it obstructs contaminated, self-cherishing pleasure.

Wisdom realizing emptiness is the queen of existence, because it realizes the very source of reality.

Therefore, Dorje Shugden is born of father compassion and mother wisdom realizing emptiness.

Thanks

christine V

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 05:00:29 PM »
Found something interesting in the link you gave, On H.E Tsem Rinpoche's article regarding Ganapati

Code: [Select]
Ganapati is an emanation of Chenrezig or Avalokitesvara[/color]

In common believed, H.H Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokitesvara. And, H.H 14th Dalai Lama created the Ban towards Dorje Shugden. Come to think about that deeply a father banned his son? What do you all think?

Ratna Shugden

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2015, 06:57:20 AM »
Found something interesting in the link you gave, On H.E Tsem Rinpoche's article regarding Ganapati

Code: [Select]
Ganapati is an emanation of Chenrezig or Avalokitesvara[/color]

In common believed, H.H Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokitesvara. And, H.H 14th Dalai Lama created the Ban towards Dorje Shugden. Come to think about that deeply a father banned his son? What do you all think?

This issue has been bothering me for some time.
Thanks for bringing it up.

Ganapati is a hindu diety, not a buddhist diety.
He was assimilated into Buddhism. This is a form of religious syncretism.

As with all assimilations of dieties from one religion to another, stories will be created to explain the cross-over.
If hindu deities have already became protectors of the Dharma &/or are emanations of Buddhas, Hinduism should cease to exist now; All hindus would have converted to Buddhism, during Buddha Sakyamuni's time since their gods have all already became Buddhists. A hindu will tell you that Ganapati is an emanation of Shiva, not Avalokitesvara. Likewise, it is safe to say that all goddesses of Hinduism & of other religions, are emanations of Tara?

As a Buddhist, it is safer to worship dieties of pure buddhist origin, than to worship dieties assimilated from other religions, because how we be sure that they agrees to be assimilated, which means He/She agrees to be under the authority of Buddha Sakyamuni? Those subjugated by Padmasambhava, & bound by oath to protect the Dharma, are different.

As part of The practice of The Four Purities, it is possible that we practice imagining all dieties of all other religions as emanations of our Yidam. However, reality may not be so.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2015, 09:01:32 PM »
RS,

I think you have some misunderstanding about this subject. You need to do more research. There has been significant crossover between the two since the beginning of Buddhism with Brahma and Indra requesting Buddha Shakyamuni to teach. Whether or not Hindu's recognize this is irrelevant from the Buddhist point of view, though there is some actual historical recognition of this. Hinduism meets the capacities and inclinations of its subjects, yet, in the history of the relationship between the two traditions, there are many instances of debate and miracle contests in which either the followers of Hinduism or the Hindu deities themselves acinowledge the superiority of the Buddhas and converting, including Hindu kings and their entire kingdom! I would suspect though that because Hinuism has its place, it's followers might not recognize or want to recognize the history, in part due to not wanting to admit there are beings or instructions that are more advanced. If you want a couple leads that support what I've said, for starters refer to the Life of Tilopa by Lotsawa Marpa Chokyi Lodro, and Life of Krsnacharya by Taranatha. Krsnacharya is also known as Krishnapada, one of the lineage Gurus of Heruka body mandala and who is a previous incarnation of Je Pabongkha Rinpoche.

Furthermore, there are many explanations within the tantric teachings and sadhanas explaining the source of these Tantras in which Hindu deities have been subjugated, their implements, attire, and names brought into the Buddhist mandala and subsequently they attain full enlightenment. There are also distinctions made in various places between recognizing the Hindu worldly deities as part of the mundane retinue and as directional Protectors. You will also find that there is also a Buddhist Ganesh/Ganapati/Vinayaka that is not a Hindu deity but a Buddha appearing for instance as a Highest Yoga Tantra Yidam.

There's no reason to feel bothered. Buddhists recognize the superiority of the Buddhas and their instructions because they lead to permanent freedom from samsara and to the higher refinement of a Highest Yoga Tantra Buddha, yet also recognize that Hinduism will perform various functions for the people that have strong karma with it.

We can understand the reason for the debates between Buddhists and other traditions is that from the Buddhist point of view, the other traditions do not lead to permanent liberation from samsara or to the highest attainment because they do teach the emptiness as explained by Buddha and elucidated by Protector Nagarjuna.

This is strictly speaking, but of course these days people are very sensitive and easy to offend so generally speaking such things are not proclaimed publicly and we don't often see anything like the debates of old. If however we do not recognize the superiority of the Dharma leading to complete liberation and enlightenment, our training will lack the necessary conviction and power to produce the highest results.

grandmapele

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2015, 08:58:25 AM »
Cholyi Dorje, what you explained seems very complicated and you do touch on the statement that Buddhism is superior due to the fact that it leads to liberation whilst the other do not. Can this be misconstrued as being sectarian in view an being condescending towards the other religions?

Would this then again lead to the question of which school is better then?

But, pardon my ignorance, I always thought that Ganapati was somehow different from Ganesha. Or, is it that they are different emanations? Sorry, was kind of confused by all these complicated connections.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2015, 03:18:56 PM »
Grandmapele,

All the connections and who is an emanation of who can be quite complicated. I'll try to simplify my understanding:

Buddhas can emanate countless aspects and incarnations as animate and inanimate phenomena, and in the aspect of mundane and supramundane beings. Buddhism shares various relationships with the Hindu pantheon via emanation, subjugation, and conversion, and this is apparent in Sutra, Tantra, and the Namtar of Masters.

These days are not as they were a long time ago in the greater region of India. But looking at the history, what we nowadays call sectarian does not seem to be taken into consideration. Different religious traditions would debate and have power contests and Buddhist teachings and Deities were shown to be superior. These days there is an emphasis on respecting other traditions and not debating. Nonetheless, the superiority of the Dharma on particular subjects is clearly implicit such as the example I gave of Nagarjuna's explanation of emptiness. When it is said there is no permanent liberation without the view of emptiness as clarified by Nagarjuna, this implicitly says other traditions do not have a path to permanent liberation if they lack this view. This kind of thing even happens within Buddhist traditions such as the "lesser, greater, and supreme vehicle" and the different schools of Buddhist tenets regarding the two truths of which the Prasangika is the highest (within Sutra) and the union of Chittamatra and Prasangika view is supreme (according to Highest Yoga Tantra).

Regarding Ganesh, follow my original link to Tsem Rinpoche's blog whic clarifies a great deal. You can also google Ganesh, Buddhist Ganesh, Highest Yoga Tantra Ganapati etc. Ganesh, Vinayaka, and Ganapati are all referring to the same deity, although in some instances there are differences between the Hindu and Buddhist aspects.


Ratna Shugden

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2015, 11:20:27 AM »
A better version of my post, taken from my Facebook account.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=517680325064708&id=100004682358138

Religious syncretism

#ganesha/#ganapati is a hindu diety, not a buddhist diety. He was assimilated into #buddhism. This is a form of religious syncretism.

As with all assimilations of dieties from one #religion to another, stories will be created to explain the cross-over, fabrications to make it religiously legal to seek favors from dieties of other religions.

If hindu deities have already became protectors of the #dharma(Inferiority & subjugation are being implied here, since it doesn't work the other round.) &/or are emanations of Buddhas, #hinduism should cease to exist now; All hindus would have converted to Buddhism, during #buddha #sakyamuni's time, since their gods have all already became Buddhists. Just like if a government converts to communism, all her citizens will become communists. A hindu will tell you that Ganapati is an emanation of #shiva or #vishnu, not #avalokitesvara. Likewise, it is safe to say that all goddesses in Buddhism, Hinduism, & other religions, are emanations of #tara? Is #vaisravana really an emanation of #vajrapani? Isn't He a taoist diety?

The Ganesha of Hinduism & the Ganesha of Buddhism are two different dieties. The image of #mahakala stepping on Ganesha, which in this case is the hindu version, has always been a sore point between Hinduism & Buddhism. How hindus feel about this, is like how any #shugdenpa will feel about the image of Dorje Drolo stepping on #dorjeshugden.

As a Buddhist, it is safer to worship dieties of pure buddhist origin, than to worship dieties assimilated from other religions, because how we be sure that they agree to be assimilated, which means He/She agrees to be under the authority of Buddha Sakyamuni? Those subjugated by #padmasambhava, & bound by oath to protect the Dharma, are different.

As part of The practice of The Four Purities, it is possible that we practice imagining all dieties of all other religions as emanations of our #yidam. However, reality may not be so.

Religious syncretism may not always create #religiousharmony with all it's aspects. It will be better for a buddhist to worship #ganesha in a hindu temple, with rituals conducted by hindu priests for Him, than to convert Him to a buddhist. In this case, the hindu priests & other hindus in the temple, will know that non-hindus do appreciate their #god.

There are other evils in Buddhism in this degenerate age. Another evil is spiritual materialism. Wealth dieties are being taught to be a form of upaya, expedient means. However, Buddhism as a religion that advocates renunciation, has no business talking about wealth generation. With authentic Dharma on wealth dieties, a true Dharma practitioner will see mundane wealth from Buddha's point of view, & turn to work towards #nirvana instead. However, in #hinayana, Buddha Sakyamuni had already expounded His Dharma on mundane wealth without wealth dieties. The true purpose behind this form of upaya, expedient means, has been lost. What remains is using the Dharma to get rich. Post(s) &/or poster(s) of events of wealth dieties' puja(s), &/or empowerment(s) are sending this message to the public. Just read for them yourself. People who prepare these advertisements, are Dharma practitioners who study the Dharma in their respective Dharma centres. The people who prepare these advertisements & the public, don't see anything wrong going on, everything looks normal to them. This is very sad.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2015, 04:27:18 PM »
RS,

Your perspective about the historic relationship of Buddhist and Hindu deities is narrow and mistaken. What you regard as the "evils of Buddhism" is merely coming from your misinterpretation of the Buddhist teachings and reveals to yourself that you do not trust the Buddhist Lineage Gurus. I could give a plethora of examples to illustrate your distrust and misunderstanding, but one will do - according to you, Jowo Atisha is not a true Dharma practitioner because he introduced the "spiritual materialism" of Dzambala practice, and that he doesn't understand renunciation or bodhichitta. Rather than make a broad label that Buddhists using wealth are evil, you would benefit from contemplating more deeply how everything can stimulate realization because Dharma is principally a mind training. You need to discriminate more precisely what the objects of abandonment are of renunciation and bodhichitta, because for someone with clear understanding, wealth does not present a problem but is used to support the path and help others. If some people have mundane deluded minds in relation to such things in Dharma Centres, you simply need to remind people to have a pure intention, and spend more time focussed on your own mind.

Both my present and prior post to this are in accordance with the lineage. There are many sources and examples you can check.

Matibhadra

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 05:31:39 AM »
Quote
#ganesha/#ganapati is a hindu diety, not a buddhist diety.

Ganapati is one among the Thirteen Golden Dharmas of Sakya, together with the Vajrayogini Naro Kachö, Vajrayogini Maitri Kachö, Vajrayogini Indra Kachö, Kurukulla, Simhanada Lokeshvara, Black Manjushri, and so forth. The Thirteen Golden Dharmas of Sakya were highly treasured, for instance, by Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoches.

“The lineage of Ganapati is as follows: Vajradhara, Vajra Varahi, Saraha, Nagarjuna, Lord Shavaripa, Hangdu Karpo, Mal Lotsawa, Sachen Kunga Nyingpo, etc. The source text used in the Sakya Tradition was taught by the mahasiddha Krishnacharin and translated by Pandita Gayadhara.” [...] “Maharakta Ganapati [is] associated with the Chakrasamvara Tantra.” http://www.himalayanart.org/items/89964

Therefore, it is clear that the Buddhist Ganapati is a purely Buddhist deity.

Quote
He was assimilated into #buddhism.

In the holy tantras, Vajradhara declared that all those tantras which the world mistakenly believe were spoken by Shiva were originally taught by him, Vajradhara.

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This is a form of religious syncretism.

This is because you are still attached to the Hindu, non-Buddhist view that the Buddhist Ganapati is a non-Buddhist deity. You must get rid of Hindu, non-Buddhist views if you want to become a Buddhist.

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As with all assimilations of dieties from one #religion to another, stories will be created to explain the cross-over, fabrications to make it religiously legal to seek favors from dieties of other religions.

Since according to you the profound explanations coming from buddhas such as Vajradhara and Vajra Varahi, from mahasidhas such as Saraha, Nagarjuna and Shavaripa, and from our own lineage teachers such as Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoches, are just “fabrications” aimed legitimizing stolen teachings, no wonder that you reject purely Buddhist deities such as the Buddhist Ganapati!

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If hindu deities have already became protectors of the #dharma(Inferiority & subjugation are being implied here, since it doesn't work the other round.) &/or are emanations of Buddhas, #hinduism should cease to exist now;

Of course not. The mere fact that Hindu deities were subjugated, or might resemble emanations of buddhas, does not mean that Hindu believers will not stick to their own beliefs.

Besides, as far as the Buddhist Ganapati is concerned, the topic of “subjugation” is irrelevant, as the Buddhist Ganapati is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, not a mundane protector bound by oath.

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All hindus would have converted to Buddhism, during #buddha #sakyamuni's time, since their gods have all already became Buddhists.

A fallacious conclusion does not become correct just because you repeat it. For instance, your teacher may have become a Buddhist, but you still remain a non-Buddhist, as above shown.

Besides, since it is not stated that Ganapati was as Hindu deity who converted to Buddhism, your fallacious argument is also irrelevant.

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Just like if a government converts to communism, all her citizens will become communists.

Thanks for offering a further proof of your own mistake. The Chinese government became non-religious communist, but hundreds of millions of Chinese citizens remained religious Buddhists, Muslims, and so forth. The Nepali government used to be Hindu, as Hinduism was Nepal's official religion, but many Nepalis such as Newaris, Tamangs, Sherpas, etc. remained Buddhists.

But, as already remarked, your argument is irrelevant to the present discussion, since it is not stated that Ganapati was a Hindu deity who converted to Buddhism.

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A hindu will tell you that Ganapati is an emanation of #shiva or #vishnu, not #avalokitesvara.

Of course. And you, as a non-Buddhist, will believe them, as you do.

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Likewise, it is safe to say that all goddesses in Buddhism, Hinduism, & other religions, are emanations of #tara?

It depends on what calls “safe”. In your case, as a non-Buddhist, “safe” is whatever is proclaimed in non-Buddhist scriptures. As to Buddhist scriptures, they do not declare that all goddesses are emanations of Tara, which makes your question again irrelevant.

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Is #vaisravana really an emanation of #vajrapani? Isn't He a taoist diety?

Taoists and Hindus may have their own Vaisravanas, which are not necessarily the same as the Buddhist Vaisravana. Your perplexity comes from the primitive assumption that every deity named “Vaisravana” is necessarily one and the same.

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The Ganesha of Hinduism & the Ganesha of Buddhism are two different dieties.

Which contradicts your previous statement that the Buddhist Ganapati is an assimilation of the Hindu Ganesha, and your unwarranted assumption that the Hindu Ganesha should have converted to Buddhism in order to become the Buddhist Ganapati.

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The image of #mahakala stepping on Ganesha, which in this case is the hindu version, has always been a sore point between Hinduism & Buddhism. How hindus feel about this, is like how any #shugdenpa will feel about the image of Dorje Drolo stepping on #dorjeshugden.

Personal feelings aside, the image of a buddha stepping on a mundane deity carries a very meaningful, inspiring, and instructional symbolism, as it shows the victory over suffering and its causes, as represented by the mundane deity.

Meanwhile the image of any being stepping on a monk carries a very destructive symbolism, as it shows contempt for the Vinaya, which is the very foundation of the Buddha's teaching, and therefore the lack of Buddhist lineage of the imagined, monstrous stepping creature, which obviously cannot be an aspect of the great master Padmasambhava, as Dorje Drolo is reputed to be.

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As a Buddhist, it is safer to worship dieties of pure buddhist origin, than to worship dieties assimilated from other religions, because how we be sure that they agree to be assimilated, which means He/She agrees to be under the authority of Buddha Sakyamuni?

This is the main reason why it is safe to worship Ganapati, among others, because of his pure Buddhist lineage, as above shown. By the same token, it is definitely unsafe to worship monstrous creatures stepping on monks, due to their lack of Buddhist lineage, or rather their anti-Buddhist lineage.

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Those subjugated by #padmasambhava, & bound by oath to protect the Dharma, are different.

There are other cases beyond Padmasambhava of Buddhist masters who subjugated non-Buddhist deities which became reliable Buddhist protectors. For instance, Ga Lotsawa Zhonnu Pel subjugated the Raven Faced Mahakala and brought him to Tibet.

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As part of The practice of The Four Purities, it is possible that we practice imagining all dieties of all other religions as emanations of our #yidam. However, reality may not be so.

You are just trying to blame your own deluded notion of “reality” for the failure of your practice of the four purities.

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Religious syncretism may not always create #religiousharmony with all it's aspects.

There is no harmony beyond buddhahood, and buddhahood is the very result of the practice of the Buddhist yidam Ganapati.

Meanwhile, entertaining useless, unwarranted theories about “religious syncretism” is just a mundane path creating precisely the suffering you want to avoid.

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It will be better for a buddhist to worship #ganesha in a hindu temple, with rituals conducted by hindu priests for Him, than to convert Him to a buddhist.

In general, it is better for Buddhists to follow their own tradition, which includes the Ganapati practice, rather than taking refuge in non-Buddhist teachers as you suggest. However, since it has already been established that you hold non-Buddhist views, your non-Buddhist advice is unsurprising.

Anyway, since the Buddhist Ganapati is a yidam taught by Vajradhara himself, only a non-Buddhist, as you, could conceive of “converting” him.

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In this case, the hindu priests & other hindus in the temple, will know that non-hindus do appreciate their #god.

A Buddhist would rather become buddha Ganapati, through the practice of Ganapati as taught by Vajradhara himself, rather than subserviently flattering mundane teachers and their followers.

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There are other evils in Buddhism in this degenerate age.

Sure. Your grotesque advice as above is a good sample.

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However, Buddhism as a religion that advocates renunciation, has no business talking about wealth generation.

Wealth is generated only by generosity, and generosity is the first virtue cultivated by the bodhisattva. Therefore, Buddhism is from the very start all about wealth generation.

Your phobia against wealth generation shows that you reject the Buddha's teachings on karma and dependent arising, and therefore on how generosity produces wealth.

Besides, since renunciation, just like generosity, implies detachment from wealth, how could one generate renunciation without generating generosity, and therefore without generating wealth?

A greedy person will only generate poverty, but greed is never the cause of renunciation. Your hate towards the result, wealth, is a sign of your hate towards the cause, generosity.

Therefore, your whole discourse about “renunciation” without wealth generation is shown to be just a big pompous lie.

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However, in #hinayana, Buddha Sakyamuni had already expounded His Dharma on mundane wealth without wealth dieties.

So what. He also expounded on wisdom without wisdom deities such as Manjushri, and on compassion without compassion deities such as Avalokiteshvara.

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The true purpose behind this form of upaya, expedient means, has been lost. What remains is using the Dharma to get rich.

One cannot avoid getting rich through the practice of Dharma. The ultimate state of buddhahood features the sambhogakaya which is endowed with every conceivable and inconceivable riches.

Midakpa

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Re: Dorje Shugden's parents
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2015, 12:08:38 AM »
The king of obstructors is Ganapati Ragavajra, manifestation of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of compassion. His consort is the Queen of existence, who represents wisdom, the mother of all buddhas. Thus, the union of compassion and wisdom produces all buddhas and bodhisattvas. Dorje Shugden, who is a buddha, is born of such a union.

It is said that Avalokiteshvara manifested as Ganapati Ragavajra with three heads, six arms, and four legs to tame the Hindu god Ganesh.