Many Ridiculous statements in this article.---take a look!

[LosangKhyentse]

Dearest Friends @ CAS,
 
We had the good fortune to clarify with the Loseling Khensur Lobsang Gyamtso Rinpoche on dark, murky developments here.
 
Khensur Rinpoche is the Abbot Emeritus of one of Tibet's greatest monasteries and is one of the seniormost lineage-holders of the Gelugpa Lineage. Rinpoche is a widely-respected prime teacher and / or colleague of some of Tibet's highest reincarnated masters.
 
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Kunga:
Rinpoche, very recently, the "Chinese Gelugpa" associations which have actively opposed the Dalai Lama over practice of the controversial spirit, shugden, has changed their name to the Khadampa Buddhist Association. What advice could you give us on this intriguing development and will you be able to advise us on what is the "real" or actual Kadampa tradition ??
 
Khensur Rinpoche:
The Kadampa tradition is "founded" by Lama Atisha, who is one of the early pioneers who brought the holy Dharma into Tibet. Much later, Je Tsongkhapa studied and practised very widely on teachings by Lama Atisha. As a result, the tradition "founded" by Je Tsongkhapa is known in Tibet as the New Kadampa tradition while Lama Atisha's teachings are known as the Old Kadampa tradition.
 
Kunga:
The Khadampa Buddhist Association is headed by a bearded Taiwanese man who claimed himself to be recorngised by his teacher, "Serkong Tritul", ( this is not the authentic Serkong Yangsi Rinpoches officially recognised by mainstream Tibetan Buddhists worl-wide ) as the reincarnation of Chenrezig of Guan Yin. His disciples, to differentiate themselves from all other Buddhists monks and nuns in the world, wore their robes with a strip of dark green cloth striped vertically downwards from the left chest. Is there any sound historical or scriptural references to this development ??
 
Khensur Rinpoche:
There has never been any historical precedent or valid scriptural basis for wearing these green-striped robes. In fact, I am concerned that their lineage is not authentic because "Serkong Tritul", head of this association, has flipped-flopped by declaring himself to be the reincarnation of this, and then, that, different Ganden Tripas in the past. In addition, he has switched his claim before to having been the reincarnation of a great yogi practitioner "Apong". It appears that there has been some contradictions in his own claims !!
 
Let me recount, in short, how reincarnation became institutionalised in Tibet. The first recognised reincarnated master of Tibet is the first Gyalwa Karmapa. Subsequently, the recognition of reincarnation of past masters ( called "tulkus" ) spread to the other traditions. In the Gelugpa lineage, it is mainly the Dalai Lama or the Ganden Tripas who will recognise Tulkus. In the Sakya lineage, the Sakya Trizin will be mainly responsible while for the Nyingma lineage, great masters such as the Mindroling Trichen, the late Dudjom Rinpoche or Palyul Penor Rinpoche will be the authority. In the Drikung Kagyu, the Drukpa Kagyu and other lineages, the respective great masters will fulfill the task and they each have their respective, stringent and definitely valid systems of recognising incarnations of great masters from their lineage.
 
Here, "Serkong Tritul" is not recognised by any of the senior lineage-holders of any of the schools. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has never recognised him as a Tulku and neither has any of the heads of the other lineages. This association claims to represent the Kadampa lineage, but all the old Kadampa masters have passed away, so these old, holy Kadampa masters could not have recognised them as Kadampas or as tulkus of the Kadampa lineage.
 
The formal inheritors of the Kadampa lineage are the Gelugpas. None of the Gelugpa lineage-holders alive today - not His Holiness or the Ganden Tripa - recognised him as a tulku. So, merely claiming himself to be a tulku does not and could not, at all, factually make him one.
 
They have been requested to offer proofs of their recognition as Kadampas. "Serkong Tritul" has also been questioned many times to provide proof of who recognised him as the real tulku of Serkong Tritul and to date, they could not offer any answers or proof.
 
Kunga:
"Serkong Tritul", himself, although un-recognised by any to have the authority to recognise or enthrone anyone as Tulku, has himself recognised a Taiwanese man to be an emanation of Chenrezig and a high tulku. They have aggressively marketed themselves as who they claimed themselves to be and many Buddhists in the general public are not aware that Tulkus need to be strongly, clearly verified via the traditional, established systems.
 
Khensur Rinpoche:
The public need to investigate carefully and thoroughly. They MUST investigate. Then, they can draw a reasonable, accurate conclusion themselves. Otherwise, practising what is taught by the unqualified teacher/s will have disastrous consequences.
 
These days, both in the west and in Taiwan, Singapore or other Asian countries, I have heard of people who self-market themselves as reincarnation of truly great lineage masters such as Je Tsongkhapa or even great, enlightened Bodhisattvas like Maitreya !! Please, of course, there is no need for us, on our side, to believe any such claims.
 
If these claims are real, they need to be backed by official recognitions by the respective leaders of the different Tibetan Buddhist lineages. Otherwise, we need not believe in them.
 
Kunga:
The Khadampa Buddhist Association is organising a huge exhibition of alleged relics of the Buddha's saliva, bones, brains or blood although no verified source has been provided by them. It appears that they are trying to gloss over this sudden surfacing of thousands of "relics" by side-stepping the issue of the need for historical or scriptural references.
The Taiwanese "tulku", the alleged incarnation of Chenrezig, has also, in front of television audiences, held an alleged hair of Lord Buddha between his fingers, with the hair apparently twitching like a worm from side to side in his hands. When he dumped the hair in a mug of liquid, the hair apparently "swam" of its own efforts, to much consternation and gasps of the innocent public !!   
 
Khensur Rinpoche:
In the Buddhist scriptures, which are the reliable references for Buddhists, we have no records of the Buddha having left any relics of the blood, brain or saliva.
 
I, myself, ( as a fully-ordained monk or Bhikshu and Buddhist teacher of 75 years of age ) have never heard, read or learnt of Lord Buddha having left relics of the blood, brain or saliva. 
 
Hence, it is necessary that we know the source of these alleged "relics", before we could accept the claims or before we could conclude that these alleged "relics" are from the Buddha.
 
When Lord Buddha manifested Nirvana at Kushinagara, it is recorded in the scriptures that the bone relics of Lord Buddha were devotedly collected by the gods to be enshrined and offered devoted services in their heavens. Venerable Ananda and Venerable Kashyapa requested the gods to leave some relics in our human realm as a source of merit and blessings for our world. As a result, some of the Buddha's bone relics remained with us and subsequently, it is recorded, too, that Nagarjuna enshrined some precious relics in treasure casket at Bodhigaya.
 
However, the claims by this association, of the sudden but un-accounted for revelation of thousands of blood, brain or saliva relics, could not be referenced from any of the holy scriptures, history, tradition or in the Tibetan circle.
 
Kunga:
This association, before it re-named itself as the "Kadhampa Buddhist Association", was known as the "Chinese Gelugpa" associations and they had been very staunch practitioners of the controversial spirit called shugden. They strongly, fanatically almost, opposed the Dalai Lama's ban on practice of shugden.
 
Khensur Rinpoche:
His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the 100th Ganden Tri Rinpoche have both advised against practising shugden. This small group of people have spurned advice of these two great masters. They rejected advice by them.
 
One of the reasons why His Holiness bans shugden, is because, in history, shugden has harmed many Nyingma practitioners. I have not seen them with my own eyes but this is what is contained in the many historical accounts.   
 
Past holy masters have used shugden on the basis of it as a servant. Nowadays, shugden practitioners rely on him as their guru, their yidam and their protector and take whole-hearted refuge in it.
 
His Holiness has said that the late Zong Rinpoche, the late Trijang Rinpoche and the Pabongkha Rinpoche Dechen Nyingpo are all great masters especially of the Lam Rim teachings. However, their adoption of shugden practice is a mistake and is an obstacle to the Dharma.
 
His Holiness has mentioned many times before that for the late Trijang Rinpoche, he can control shugden and not the other way round. His Holiness said that the late Trijang Rinpoche can carry out the four holy activities of a Buddha: pacifying, enriching, magnetizing and wrath and so Trijang Rinpoche is completely different from ordinary beings. These days, we are not of that calibre, practitioners nowadays have not reached the level of attainment of the late Trijang Rinpoche.
 
The present Trijang has disrobed and has married. He said that because of this, he can no longer practise shugden, because, to practise shugden ( in its full depth and engagement ), one needs to be a very pure monk. So, the present Trijang Rinpoche has openly stated that he no longer could practise shugden and so does not practise shugden !!   
The late Zong Rinpoche, towards the end of his life, has made confession of his mistake of practising shugden to His Holiness and has promised His Holiness to stop the practice.
I, myself, have no relationship whatsoever with shugden. One of my main teachers, the late Khensur Pema Gyaltshen, has advised very clearly on the detrimental consequences of practising shugden. I am from Drepung Monastery ( note: Rinpoche is the Abbot Emeritus of Drepung Loseling, the largest of 3 colleges in Drepung Monastery ) and our monastery's main protector is Nechung Choegyal. So, in general, Drepung Monastery has no relationship with shugden. In Drepung Loseling, all our monks made vows to curtail the practice of shugden. The mainstream Tibetan circle is well aware of Drepung's stand on shugden.     
 
In fact, now, in the 3 great Gelugpa monasteries of Drepung, Sera and Ganden, the monastic penalty has been invoked and shugden practitioners have been expelled from all of them. The overwhelming majority of students in these 3 great monasteries have no relationship whatsoever with shugden practitioners. They do not debate with them, study with them or live with them.
 
These expelled or ex-communicated shugden practitioners have in fact re-established monasteries outside of the mainstream Gelugpa establishments. Hence, we can say that the Gelugpa lineage is, presently, now, formally and factually pure of any shugden practices. We have no problem now as the shugden practitioners are out of the Gelugpa system. 
 
Kunga:
Thank you so much Rinpoche. Your advice will be very important to the undiscerning individual.
 
Khensur Rinpoche:
Thank you so much !! Thank you !!
 
 
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The above is from:

http://www.casotac.com/CASonline%20Articles/23122009_2.html



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Dear Forum friends,

There are many ridiculous and unfounded statements in this article. It is very laughable/disturbing to read.

1. You have to be a pure monk to practice Dorje Shugden?

2. Current Trijang Rinpoche gave up the practice because he is not a monk?

3. Zong Rinpoche regretted later in his life for practicing Shugden? And that he confessed??

4. Pabongka, Trijang and Zong Rinpoches were great lamas BUT their adoption of Shugden is a great obstacle?

5. (Drepung Loseling Kensur Lobsang Gyatso is from Gowo Khangtsen and doesnt get along with the current Sharpa Choeje Losang Tenzin due to money issues from Taiwan. Sharpa Choeje recieved many offerings, Kensur Lobsang Gyatso did not.

To this day Kensur Lobsang Gyatso and his Gowo Khangtsen monks have disputes with Sharpa Choeje Lobsang Tenzin).

Loseling Kensur Lobsang Gyatso says ONLY DALAI LAMA AND GADEN TRIPA CAN RECOGNIZE TULKUS???  WRONG, WRONG AND WRONG. Innumerable Tulkus were recognized by Nechung/Setrap/Shugden/Kache Marpo/Yudonma oracles, Abbots, Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Gen Nyima Rinpoche, etc etc.

6. Many silly, biased statements that should be logically refuted written into their site.

7. This Singaporean article writer/group obviously are very jealous of Serkong Tritul's success and uses the Kensur Lobsang Gyatso to back him up. Unfortunately the Loseling Kensur Lobsang Gyatso himself is tainted with money/jealousy issues within Loseling/Tibetan surrounding communities. His statements if he has made them to this Singaporean group make himself look silly, biased and doing his best to get into the good books of the Dalai Lama. Loseling has produced many great masters, but some monks still get embroiled with politics instead of doing retreats to gain attainments.

8. The kensur says that Loseling has no relations with Dorje Shugden. But their main protector is Nechung CHOEGYAL. 'Choe' is dharma and 'Gyel' is King. So Loseling Kensur is referring to Nechung as a Dharma King. Since when did Nechung become a Dharma King??  He is an evil spirit bounded by Guru Rinpoche to NOT HARM OTHERS OR SUFFER THE WRATH OF GURU RINPOCHE. So no one can refer to him as dharma king.


9. After the Kensur expresses all his biased views that are not befitting of his station, he THANKS THE PEOPLE at the end of the interview for listening and writing his views. Sad.



TK

[LosangKhyentse]

Why would a kensur of Loseling say negative things against Serkong Tritul or his group??

It really makes him look beneath his learning.


According to the vinaya, all colors permissable except white and black for ordained persons. There is no scriptural 'validation' for green stripes on the robes, but neither is there a prohibition.

The upper vest (dongka) the Tibetan monks/nuns wear was not existing in India or prior to Tsongkapa. It was Tsongkapa who designed the upper vest for ordained ppl to have uniformity. Otherwise ppl were just wearing all types of items.

So the dongka is not in any scriptures prior to Tsongkapa.

[WisdomBeing]

i was just looking through some of the older posts and thought this was informative.

[wang]

Why would a kensur of Loseling say negative things against Serkong Tritul or his group??

It really makes him look beneath his learning.


According to the vinaya, all colors permissable except white and black for ordained persons. There is no scriptural 'validation' for green stripes on the robes, but neither is there a prohibition.

The upper vest (dongka) the Tibetan monks/nuns wear was not existing in India or prior to Tsongkapa. It was Tsongkapa who designed the upper vest for ordained ppl to have uniformity. Otherwise ppl were just wearing all types of items.

So the dongka is not in any scriptures prior to Tsongkapa.

tk,

You have repeatedly attacked the other lamas using the protector conflict as a means, but in fact promoting 'Serkong Tritul', though you said you are not his student.  So I don't mind repeat my writing there :

I suppose most of the difference in view here are due to mis-match of information.  Below are biographies of Serkong Tritul and ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’ as presented in their website:

a.   Serkong Tritul

Here is a list of his previous lives :

1.   White Manjushiri, 2.Maha Kashyapa, 3.Nagarjuna , 4. Chandrakirti, 5..., 6. Shantideva, 7...., 8. ..., 9.Great translator Vairochana, 10. Atisha, 11...., 12...., 13...., 14...., 15. Great Vehicle Dharma King Kunjesinpa (note: a Sakyapa grant title of Dharma King by the Ming emperor, the other two most famous grant with Dharma King titles were Karmapa and Jamchen Choeje Shakya Yeshi , founder of Sera Monastery), 16. 4th Ganden Tripa, 17. 13rd Ganden Tripa, 18...., 19.32th Ganden Tripa, 20...., 21. 56th Ganden Tripa, 22. Hui Hung Rinpoch, 23.Hui tong Rinpoche,24.Hui Peng Rinpoche, 25.Hui Yuen Rinpoche.

Note: ‘Serkong Tritul’ is not the name most commonly quoted in their web-site.  Instead the title of ‘Most Venerable the 25th Great Vehicle Dharma King ’ and ‘39th Yamantaka lineage holder’ are the most frequently quote.

b.    ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’
Unlike Serkong Tritul , there are a lot information about ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’ in their web-site,.  Here is some translation from their site:

-   The venerable 6th Jamseng Rinpoche’s past lives are: 1.Mahipa(one of the 84 Mahasiddhas), 2. Dromtonpa (founder of Kamdapa), 3. Sakya Pandita (the 4th Sayka great master) 4. Jamyang Choje( Founder of Drepung Monastery) 5…6. Jamseng Rinpoche…

-   …The current 6th Jamseng Rinpoche is said to be ‘the biggest Living Buddha out of all living Buddha’, ‘Sangha King out of the sangha’, holding super high degree in sutra, and high degree in tantra. He is first abbot of Nepal’s biggest monastery(Great Vihecle Monastery, with 2600 monks)…Jamseng Rinpoche hold a superior position, practicing Shakyamuni Buddha and Je Tsongkapa’s sutric/tantric total lineage…and got dieties’ endorsement. During practice in Taiwan, chakra appeared in the window glass. Duing Yamantaka fire puja  in NZ, 5 color appeared in the mandala.  5 color appeared during dharma teaching in HK and in Malaysia.  Yamantaka appeared during fire puja in Singapore…

The site further say that:

Jamseng Rinpoche has fully mastered the three vehicle, four views of tenets, four tantra, four initiations, generation stage, completion stage, all teachings from Tsongkapa’s lineage.

The site further on his biography, I make it concise here:

-   Born in 1964 in Taiwan
-   By end 1994, met Serkong Tritul and received the Yamantaka initiation from him. Got a dream about lightning, earth split and decided to be monk.
-   1995 tonsured by Serkong Tritul
-   1996 recognize as Jamseng Rinpoche by Serkong Tritul
-   1996 enthroned as Jamseng Rinpoche in Gaden monastery.  Received Sramanera Precepts and got ordained by Sera Abbot Sayka Rinpoche in Tibet.
-   1997 appointed as 1st abbot of Great Vehicle Monastery in Nepal by Serkong Tritul
-   1998 performed tonsure ceremony for over 300 kids in the Great Vehicle Monastery
-   1999 recognize as one of the high Dharma King in Tibet by Serkong Tritul, with previous lives as Mahipa, Dromtonpa , Sakya Pandita etc..
-   2000 Received highest sutra and tantra degree from Great Vehicle monastery

Here is translation of his ‘Tulku certificate’ from their site:

Tulku Certificate

Father Tsei MG, the 6th Jamseng Rinpoche named Tsei JT

Studied in the Great Vehicle Monastery on subjects of Treatise on Valid Cognition, Ornament of Clear Realization, Introduction to the Middle Way, Abhidharma, The Root of the Vinaya (ie. The 5 texts),  three vehicle four tenets, fully master sutra scripture and grant with doctor degree in sutra, called the Super-Lharampa Degree.

Jointly by
Nepal Great Vehicle Monastery  Great Vehicle Dharma King
Great Vehicle Monastery Abbot                        Date: July 3rd 2000


PS: by 2008, with setup of Kadhampa Buddhist Association, 6th Jamseng Rinpoche's new name is 18th Drom-Tug Rinpoche, Drom stands for Dromtonpa, Tug stands for mind.   No re-incarnation list of his previous 17 lives provided yet.  Same case for the other 14 'Rinpoche',  who mostly be 18th re-incarnations of Atisha's disciples.
                 


In essence,

i.   For Jamseng Rinpoche :

He was ordained in 1996, be abbot of the ‘Great Vehicle Monastery’ in 1997(which was bought by Serkong Tritul in same year), and by 2000, he got a ‘Super Lharampa Degree’ from the same monastery which he has been abbot. He completed equivalent of Lharampa degree(if not superior to it) in 3 year’s time, 4 years after ordination!

ii.   For Serkong Tritul
Besides the re-incarnation list as 25th Great Vehicle Dharma King, there is not much other information available in their sites.  To supplement the missing part, this is re-construction of his biography based on input from ex-members of his center, magazine and bits and pieces from his site:

Serkong Tritul was born in 1965 in Nepal.  By age 11 he entered Sera Monastery, and moved to Gaden Monastery afterwards.  He studied in the monasteries for 10 years.  At age of 21, he left Gaden Monastery to Singapore, then in 1989 to Taiwan. He was never recognized as a tulku in Sera or Gaden Monastery, but started to self-claim name of Serkong Tritul in Taiwan.  It was in early stage of Tibetan Buddhism development in Taiwan, he was a pioneer bringing in the Gelukpa teachings to Taiwan(note: with 10 years stay in the monasteries, his mastering of Buddhist tenets would be far deeper than a lot average Han Buddhist monks already. ).

The turn-around point about Serkong Tritul was in 1992.  He was involved in a sex scandal, accused of rape by a girl serving in his center. He admitted having sex with this girl to the police(so his admission was documented by the Police), but denied of rape. The charge was resolved at the end after the girl gave up the accusation (note:she died a few years later out of cancer, said to be due to depression).  Serkong Tritul left Taiwan after the event, and back in 1994 fall with more title (ie. The 25th Great Vehicle Dharma King and four times be Gaden tripa etc.).  In 1997, he bought a monastery in Nepal and named it ‘Great Vehicle Monastery’, which is root monastery of his organization afterwards.

lightning said:

 ‘Serkong Tritul Rinpoche was groomed up by Song Rinpoche from young and had maintained as the top debater in Ganden Monastery. Zemey Rinpoche passed all the Yamantaka Lineages to Serkong Tritul Rinpoche making Him the Lineage holder of Lone Yamantaka. He also acquired 8 Maha Teachings and many others valuable uncommon teachings from various renowned masters, like Guru Deva, Kensur Rinpoche Sonam Kunga, Zemey Rinoche, Locho Rinpoche etc.’.

Serkong Tritul(by then his name was Thitill Lobsang Jyongne, not Serkong Tritul) was just a ordinary monk, most probably not even completed the Madhyamaka Uma class when he left the monastery.  How possible would it be for Zemey Rinpoche to grant him 39th Yamantaka Lineage Holder?

I am not saying that Serkong Tritul didn’t receive any teachings from those high lamas, or received any financial support from them.  But as an ordinary student monk, he got no privilege as like those tulkus who can jump class or receive special transmission on special event.  So if he did receive any teachings from those high lamas during that time, it would not be ‘uncommon teachings’ specific for him, but to all the monks in the monastery.  If he did receive any care from the high lamas, it would be a support to all young monks who has financial difficulties by then, not specific for him.

Serkong Tritul is benefactor to a lot high lamas and DS related sangha, which is what I rejoice at.  That’s why although the portraits about him and ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’ here differ a lot from the Han Buddhist community, I didn’t say much. However, recently I notice that here started to have attack on other Rinpoche(or centers) who don’t recognize Kadhampa Buddhist Association’s activities, as demonstrated in this thread, or other posts about CAS’s web(which is not DS related), although I am not connected to Khensur Rinpoche/CAS, by law of ‘action and reaction’, I felt obliged to provide some further information about them in the Chinese media. 

PS: After writing this, my friend notified me that 'Serkong Tritul' did live in Nepal for a year or so learn under Dagom Rinpoche after leaving the monastery.  Wonder why he never mentioned about this learning experience which benefited him most but only talk about Zemey Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche who were far from his reach....There is much talk about Dagom Rinpoche after his passing away by tk recently though.

[Ratna Shugden]

It's beneficial to sentient beings to have teachers of different races to reach out to specific groups, in this case having Chinese teachers who can teach the Dharma in mandarin to Dharma practitioners in South-East Asia.

[icy]

Yes, RS, especially Chinese, cos there are over 1 billion Chinese in China who needed spiritual enrollment.  They are starved of spiritualism after cultural revolution.  They are the people who need it most.

icy

[cleojean]

Frankly, I think WE ALL could use more Dharma and cultivate HIGHER understanding of Dharma. It is very obvious that one can be surrounded by high lamas and even be in an esteemed glorious Dharma school, the real question is this - Is the Dharma alive inside you?

[wang]

Yes, RS, especially Chinese, cos there are over 1 billion Chinese in China who needed spiritual enrollment.  They are starved of spiritualism after cultural revolution.  They are the people who need it most.

icy

In the Chinese-speaking Buddhist community(ie. Greater China plus South East Asia plus NA etc), there is no lack of masters, be him(sometimes her) Tibetan or Han.  Just talk about Gelukpa alone, starting from early 2000, some Lharampa Geshe/Rinpoche already stationed in Malaysia/China/Taiwan to my limited knowledge,and they started teach about tenets etc to supplement the Lamrim teachings.

As an example to show the extend of progress, before year 2002, except for Lamrim Chemo and a few sadhana explanation(which were edited in 30s), there were few Gelukpa material available.  I had to rely on English translation to further my learning.  Now, with hard work of those monks(Han monks back from India/Admo, Tibetan master who picked up Chinese etc), the volume of Chinese translations of Gelukpa teachings is at least at same level as in English, if not more than it in some area...

So we are no lack of masters, just lack of high quality lama.  If you look at the three monasteries' geshe degree curriculum, you should know at what level of study is in their first 4 years study: they even not start the Uma course yet, talking about getting a 'super-lharampa degree' in 4 years time is really a joke...and an insult to the three monasteries(including current Serpom Norling and Shar Gaden monasteries as they are no difference in the geshe program)...

[lightning]

Yes, RS, especially Chinese, cos there are over 1 billion Chinese in China who needed spiritual enrollment.  They are starved of spiritualism after cultural revolution.  They are the people who need it most.

icy

In the Chinese-speaking Buddhist community(ie. Greater China plus South East Asia plus NA etc), there is no lack of masters, be him(sometimes her) Tibetan or Han.  Just talk about Gelukpa alone, starting from early 2000, some Lharampa Geshe/Rinpoche already stationed in Malaysia/China/Taiwan to my limited knowledge,and they started teach about tenets etc to supplement the Lamrim teachings.

As an example to show the extend of progress, before year 2002, except for Lamrim Chemo and a few sadhana explanation(which were edited in 30s), there were few Gelukpa material available.  I had to rely on English translation to further my learning.  Now, with hard work of those monks(Han monks back from India/Admo, Tibetan master who picked up Chinese etc), the volume of Chinese translations of Gelukpa teachings is at least at same level as in English, if not more than it in some area...

So we are no lack of masters, just lack of high quality lama.  If you look at the three monasteries' geshe degree curriculum, you should know at what level of study is in their first 4 years study: they even not start the Uma course yet, talking about getting a 'super-lharampa degree' in 4 years time is really a joke...and an insult to the three monasteries(including current Serpom Norling and Shar Gaden monasteries as they are no difference in the geshe program)...

Tashi Telek!

Dear Wang,

Do you understand that understanding of Buddha dharma cannot be defined by the degree or the certificate? Do you know that Potowa does not have Lharmapa Degree, but He is recognised as a Geshe. There are prodigy who went to complete their Doctorate at very young age, how can you be so biased and jump conclusion? There are some renowned masters who is not conferred with Geshe title, but is found out as an Enlightened Being upon testing the knowledge and understanding of Dharma such as Master Shantideva. Those who belittled Shantideva regretted their actions. Song Rinpoche also did not ascend to be on enthrone, but to Him, real gold is not afraid of fire.

Or would you like to have a nice discussion with Dromtug Rinpoche. As a Buddhist we cannot afford to be "clumsy" in manners and speech. As a Buddhists, we ought to have bearing virtues. When we tried to invite the person from CAS who posted such the above comments, he flee at the sight of Dromtug Rinpoche's surprise arrival. We are there to clarify things in peaceful manners and to discuss on Dharma.

Earlier did you actually find out facts about whether the relics, Dromtug Ripoche (previously known as Jamseng Rinpoche) processed, came from authentic source? No! but you jumped conclusion that they are fake and readily take side with what CAS has posted, without investigating into the facts! In actual fact, It was later found out that CAS has slapped their face with own hands that Project Maitreya (From HHDL group) also have the same relics as Dromtug Rinpoche has in procession and the same relics with authentic source were found in the world. I know there is some misunderstanding about Serkong Titul Rinpoche, but mind you? Are you at the place where the event occurs or what had actually took place in the background? Did you find out from both parties to finally come in truthful conclusion. Or are you just another gossip monger? Are you a Buddhist and do you have samaya vows? do you believe in karma? and do you understand the negative impact incurred on yourself and for destroying other people's "kind root"? Just imagine what kind of fruit, you would incurred, where would you land?

Dromtug Rinpoche flies around the world to preach Dharma, if possible we would like to kindly invite you over for an open discussion on Dharma topics. The true quality of a "living" Buddha can be tested and distinguished by through the propagating of Dharma and Dharma debates. Such peerless Dharma Mastery, can be distinguished by the essence. All Buddha's vital instructions or essence can be found within the first stanza of Lam Rim and Guru Puja. Buddha's Dharma propagated must be interlinked without obstructions and must be flawless. A true master is able to explain the conise meaning of the these essence and by hearing one can distinguish the difference. Explanation of renunciation, bodhicitta, emptiness, vipasana and samadhi must be accurate too. Serkong Rinpoche had top the Ganden Monastery in debates and was peerless. This accounts can be verified in Ganden monastary.

<quoted by Wang:
although I am not connected to Khensur Rinpoche/CAS, by law of ‘action and reaction’, I felt obliged to provide some further information about them in the Chinese media.>

Such actions of yours is very "un-Buddhist"!. I believe no one taught you to cut and paste nonsensical slanders and then add oil to fire!

<quoted by Wang:
So we are no lack of masters, just lack of high quality lama.  If you look at the three monasteries' geshe degree curriculum, you should know at what level of study is in their first 4 years study: they even not start the Uma course yet, talking about getting a 'super-lharampa degree' in 4 years time is really a joke...and an insult to the three monasteries(including current Serpom Norling and Shar Gaden monasteries as they are no difference in the geshe program)...>

The Lharmpa degree is conferred by recognised Masters and Serkong Tritul Rinpoche confered the degree to Dromtug Rinpoche and the enthroning ceremony took place in Ganden Monastery (Such enthronement is recognised by four major Tantric Buddhist sects). I am not fazed that anyone would complete the Lharmpa Degree in short time, given with complete understanding and mastery of Dharma understanding. Some master even got enlightened instantly upon thrown with torma.

Up to date, I have yet to see any peers to Serkong Tritul Rinpoche and Dromtug Rinpoche in Dharma preaching. Those who encountered with Serkong Tirtul Rinpoche should know in person about the prowess of Him or Dromtug Rinpoche can verify what I am saying. The value of the Dharma can be distinguished by Dharma preaching and debate between the masters. I am very sure that you did not come in person to meet Serkong Tritul Rinpoche or Dromtug Rinpoche to verify the Dharma preaching standards and both Masters have very strong Bodhicitta. " Preharps it would be a shame for some people who maligned them, not to attest the authenticity of the Dharma instructions, face to face in person.

For your info, I even witness roaring Lion manifested in form of cloud, when Dromtug Rinpoche's Dharma preaching Eight Verses of Thought Transformation in Thailand. The cloud formation of lion was very clear in shape with it's mouth roaring and one of the feet stepped forward in a very magnificent posture. Such auspicious sign stands for lion roaring dharma and it also mean Dharma that subdues heretics. After that, there was a English man openly challenged Dromtug Rinpoche in public debating in the topic of emptiness in fluent mandarin. Dromtug Rinpoche is like a "king" doctor with ability to diagnosed the former's mistakes in view of emptiness and the Englishman was defeated within a few exchange of debating.

[lightning]

Why would a kensur of Loseling say negative things against Serkong Tritul or his group??

It really makes him look beneath his learning.


According to the vinaya, all colors permissable except white and black for ordained persons. There is no scriptural 'validation' for green stripes on the robes, but neither is there a prohibition.

The upper vest (dongka) the Tibetan monks/nuns wear was not existing in India or prior to Tsongkapa. It was Tsongkapa who designed the upper vest for ordained ppl to have uniformity. Otherwise ppl were just wearing all types of items.

So the dongka is not in any scriptures prior to Tsongkapa.

Thanks a lot TK for speaking up . Our prime motivation is to salvage sentient beings and lead all ultimately to Buddhahood.

[honeydakini]

Why would a kensur of Loseling say negative things against Serkong Tritul or his group??

It really makes him look beneath his learning.

It is very discouraging to see other high Lamas judging, criticising or "questioning" the validity of other Lamas. Like TK, I was shocked to see how jubilant he signed off, saying many happy thank yous for reading and writing what was essentially an entire interview that criticised the conduct, practices and recognition of other Lamas. It is very saddening to me to see Sangha criticising other sangha, for what example does that set for laypeople, who will read something like this and think, "oh this and this Lama talked in this way against another lama; so if a high Lama, a Kensur, can do this, then it must be okay" and they risk running off and repeating this same action with other teachers.

How dangerous - it opens up such a huge can of worms. If you start to say one lama is wrong, then another could be wrong, and another and another and another... then your whole basis of refuge in the Sangha gets shaky. You own Lama could be totally wrong, then this practice he taught you could be wrong, and that teaching could be questionable... and soon everything turns into doubt and you turn away from the practice. This is an extreme case, but is this the kind of risk we wish to take, especially towards our Guru, who we have already committed to?

I think that if someone was really concerned for the welfare of other practitioners and cared sincerely about them getting (or not getting) in with wrong teachers who might trick them etc etc, then instead of just singling out teachers and pointing out their supposed faults or wrong incarnation status, wouldn't it be more helpful to advise students what to look out for when they are looking for a Guru? Give them helpful information, based on scriptures or teachings, that will help them to make informed, logical and beneficial decisions for their spiritual practice.

It's like a patient really needs help from a surgeon, and you tell them, "Oh Dr John - he's very bad because he doesn't do this correctly, he does this wrongly, he's this and that"  OR "Don't go to Dr Mike because he is like this and that, and he doesn't do this and this hospital or that medical association didn't recognise him." This doesn't help the patient does it? He comes out more confused... wouldn't it be more helpful to him if you advised him on the qualities of a surgeon that he should look for? Like the type of accreditations he's received, his specialty, the kind of good ethical conduct he has, the results of his medical practice etc....

I believe it is similar to this - as spiritual practitioners, we are all "patients" too aren't we? It doesn't help if we step into a hospital and everyone is pointing out to us what is wrong with all the doctors!

[shugdenprotect]

When criticizing others, we reflect badly upon ourselves. In the Dharma, every student, lay and ordained are taught not to practice divisive speech, as it is one of the big “no no”. Therefore, it would seem completely unbelievable that a practicing Rinpoche would resort to such baseless, non-virtuous acts.

It is terrifying that such an article is could be recorded and distributed to create confusion and schism within the Dharma society. During this degenerate time where distractions are abundant, pure Dharma is needed for the salvation of our mind stream more than ever.

Therefore, it may be advisable to question the motivation behind the creation of this conversation. If one practices pure Dharma, the most basic motivation behind each action is to benefit others. Whether one likes it or not is no longer important as the self is replaced by selflessness. Does this conversation come from selflessness? That could be a good reference to begin with.

From reading the statement in this article, I experience confusion and disappointment. Reading the thread, I dare say that the content of the article does not create harmony. With this type of result, I would conclude that there is no selflessness here and it would be smart to ignore these distracting statements and muster the strength and focus to develop pure Dharma growth and keep clean Guru samaya with the spiritual master we have chosen for ourselves.

[Helena]

Isn't that the whole point though - so much content out there are not meant to create harmony. May be they were designed that way. How and why else would they illicit such results?

Similar to Gurus - bad or good - to assess how valid the Gurus are, don't we look at how their students behave?

Yes, of course when we behave badly, it reflects badly on ourselves and our Guru. The fruit cannot fall far from the tree.

And if we do behave well, it naturally attracts praises from all who come across us. And that could only mean that we have been brought up well, trained well, groomed well, etc.

It is indeed very discouraging to see "people of the cloth or the robes" to speak ill of others. But then again, it is very discouraging to see all human speak ill towards one another, whether he or she is ordained or not. Being ordained or in a spiritual position just magnifies the unpleasantness or ugliness even more.

[WoselTenzin]

It’s really sad that someone like a Kensur of Drepung Loseling, a major Gelugpa monastery can spread so much false information about other sangha members and many high Lamas for that matter.  It is absolutely unethical and dangerous that he actually uses his position and his authority to reinforce such false believes among people who do not know better just to get into the good books of the Dalai Lama.. This is pure politics.  It’s disgusting that someone in robes can stoop so low.  What he said may have destroyed many people’s faith in their guru and the Dharma.   Buddha Sakyamuni himself has predicted that in degenerate times, Buddhadharma will be destroyed from within.  This is clear evidence that Buddha’s prediction is happening big time now.

[lightning]

Dear Wang,

I have a few Dharma questions for you, please kindly enlighten us in details?

1) Can we take refuge to Bodhicitta?

2) Can we take refuge to a dog?

3) Do you classified "no self" as emptiness?

for the benefits of sentient beings, please kindly give teachings in details?

Dear Wang,

You may get your friends, Rinpoches or even Geshes to assist you in answering the above questions. Please kindly enlighten us with answers.