Many Ridiculous statements in this article.---take a look!

[honeydakini]

What he said may have destroyed many people’s faith in their guru and the Dharma.

Isn't that the most ironic and saddest part about this whole thing - that in their valiant attempt to "warn" others and "help" them get on a right path, they are potentially destroying people's faith in their teacher, the very person they took refuge with and possibly the only and strongest connection they have to the Dharma.

I remember reading very clearly in Alexander Berzin's book about the relationship with the Guru that even if our own Gurus do something that we do not understand or we disagree with, we should just keep a respectful distance without criticising or fighting back; to focus on his good qualities (to train our minds to regard our Gurus positively) and to maintain in our visualisations that our Guru is a Buddha. Whether or not he is, I do believe it is helpful to think in this way for the sake of our own practice, to maintain a basis of consistency and commitment to our practice. If not, once we start wobbling about with one Guru, then who's to say that if/when we find another seemingly perfect Guru, we won't again wobble when someone whispers a nasty little rumour into our ears?

In any case, if this is the advice we are given about our relationship with our OWN gurus, then what more of other Gurus who we don't even know or haven't even met. What right do we have at all in that case, to mouth off about another Guru?

[crazycloud]

What he said may have destroyed many people’s faith in their guru and the Dharma.

Isn't that the most ironic and saddest part about this whole thing - that in their valiant attempt to "warn" others and "help" them get on a right path, they are potentially destroying people's faith in their teacher, the very person they took refuge with and possibly the only and strongest connection they have to the Dharma.

I remember reading very clearly in Alexander Berzin's book about the relationship with the Guru that even if our own Gurus do something that we do not understand or we disagree with, we should just keep a respectful distance without criticising or fighting back; to focus on his good qualities (to train our minds to regard our Gurus positively) and to maintain in our visualisations that our Guru is a Buddha. Whether or not he is, I do believe it is helpful to think in this way for the sake of our own practice, to maintain a basis of consistency and commitment to our practice. If not, once we start wobbling about with one Guru, then who's to say that if/when we find another seemingly perfect Guru, we won't again wobble when someone whispers a nasty little rumour into our ears?

In any case, if this is the advice we are given about our relationship with our OWN gurus, then what more of other Gurus who we don't even know or haven't even met. What right do we have at all in that case, to mouth off about another Guru?

But of course we should always critisize wiht a good intention if we see someone doing something unethical. Berzin and the Dalai both agree on this point, as does the first Panchen Lama Losang Chokyi Gyaltsen when he said

"Since we cannot see others' minds.
We should make an effort to appreciate everyone's views,
But I cannot accept those who spread wrong views
and by this lead many living beings astray."

Khedrup Je, in his polemical defense of Je Rinpoche's teaching said things like

"...he is like a child boasting about being a scholar..."
"...Over and over you take refuge in a vessel of lies...."
"...lacking shame or guilt you wear the belt of ordained discipline loosely...."
"...they are a pack of fools..."

etc etc

we can find many examples like this.

So clearly criticizing other lamas is deemed acceptable by the great lamas of old AND by modern lamas on both sides of this issue.

I think we need to be sure about our motivation as noone will bear our karmic burden but ourselves, but I think there is a danger in losing our critical faculties if we just say "Oh, I can't see any faults or say anything because someone else thinks this person is a lama."

Frankly, that's just foolish.

[Lineageholder]

I agree with crazycloud - if we see non-Dharma that will lead to misunderstanding or if we see someone claiming to act in accordance with Dharma but they are actually causing problems (such as the Dalai Lama) we have a right to criticise that understanding or that person's actions.

[crazycloud]

you betcha

[lightning]

Dear Wang,

I have a few Dharma questions for you, please kindly enlighten us in details?

1) Can we take refuge to Bodhicitta?

2) Can we take refuge to a dog?

3) Do you classified "no self" as emptiness?

for the benefits of sentient beings, please kindly give teachings in details?

Dear Wang,

You may get your friends, Rinpoches or even Geshes to assist you in answering the above questions. Please kindly enlighten us with answers.

[wang]

Dear Wang,

I have a few Dharma questions for you, please kindly enlighten us in details?

1) Can we take refuge to Bodhicitta?

2) Can we take refuge to a dog?

3) Do you classified "no self" as emptiness?

for the benefits of sentient beings, please kindly give teachings in details?

Dear Wang,

You may get your friends, Rinpoches or even Geshes to assist you in answering the above questions. Please kindly enlighten us with answers.

haha lightning I can see that this is a job assigned to you:)

You have 3 times using the wording 'enlighten us' in your 3 requests, very persistent, obviously you are not searching for answer to a dharma question arise from  your own practice but aim at others.  Please read Geshe Tashi Tsering's book on 'Emptiness' or Guy Newland's 'introduction to Emptiness'.

Whatever answer you got, would like to remind you what I heard from a lot lama(if you didn't come across to it):  For any Dharma study or practice, what we need to make sure is that we have the right intention at the beginning, not for seek of just knowledge, win-over, or self-purpsoe, but search for 'Buddhahood' for sentient beings, and at the end a dedication is needed.  Obviously you are going in other direction..

It worth to re-cap how 'rediculous' this thread is and how it come to current stage, typical of what happening in this forum, but I would like to do it only as my last priority..

[jessicajameson]

After reading the article in discussion, a few questions came up in my mind:

1. Was it staged, and was it even Kensur Rinpoche saying those words?

2. How can one Rinpoche speak such ill-words of another Rinpoche's incarnation (Serkong Tritul) and question his lineage? (To be honest, it makes me feel a little ill just reading those words..)

3.Considering how highly qualified he is (being a geshe and teaching other senior geshes on the sutra and tantra, being a few to mention regarding his qualifications), how can he get such simple facts wrong? (e.g.the green stripes in the robes, and saying that the late Zong Rinpoche, towards the end of his life, has made confessionof his mistake of practising shugden to His Holiness and has promised His Holiness to stop the practice. ). Mind-boggling nonsense.

4. Was it because the monastery in which he held the position as Abbot Emeritus (Drepung Loseling) was under harsh scrutiny by TGIE that he came out with such strong words to please them, 'get them off their backs' and thus protect the many sanghas in the monastery? Seems like a respectable move.

5. Are we suppose to think that there's some 'hidden reason' why he says the things that he did, or is it really out of true spite (that he does have money/jealousy issues as tk says)?

What do you guys think?


I'm under the impression that he's doing it for a reason and with a purpose that's not will not be publicly stated. Why? I'm confused but compelled to think that if he is as recognized and qualified and he is, and there have been so many other high lamas that have spoke nothing but praises about him (high lamas such as Ling Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche and HHDL, whom I feel have both clairvoyance and unsurpassed intelligence), how silly can he be so say such nonsensical and untrue things? He isn't our average Joe.

To answer one of tk's questions: In my opinion, if it is, as the dialogue states, we had to be pure monks to practice Dorje Shugden, then really we'd have to be pure monks to practice Manjushri, and thus it implies that we have to be pure monks to practice any enlightened beings teachings. Be a pure monk to learn the Dharma?? Preposterous.


@ Wang If you really don't want to help by answering some of the participants' questions, to actively and positively participate in this forum and would rather ridicule the existence of it, I strongly suggest you take your words and type them somewhere else. As you can see some people really do want to learn.

[lightning]

Dear Wang,

I have a few Dharma questions for you, please kindly enlighten us in details?

1) Can we take refuge to Bodhicitta?

2) Can we take refuge to a dog?

3) Do you classified "no self" as emptiness?

for the benefits of sentient beings, please kindly give teachings in details?

Dear Wang,

You may get your friends, Rinpoches or even Geshes to assist you in answering the above questions. Please kindly enlighten us with answers.

haha lightning I can see that this is a job assigned to you:)

You have 3 times using the wording 'enlighten us' in your 3 requests, very persistent, obviously you are not searching for answer to a dharma question arise from  your own practice but aim at others.  Please read Geshe Tashi Tsering's book on 'Emptiness' or Guy Newland's 'introduction to Emptiness'.

Whatever answer you got, would like to remind you what I heard from a lot lama(if you didn't come across to it):  For any Dharma study or practice, what we need to make sure is that we have the right intention at the beginning, not for seek of just knowledge, win-over, or self-purpsoe, but search for 'Buddhahood' for sentient beings, and at the end a dedication is needed.  Obviously you are going in other direction..

It worth to re-cap how 'rediculous' this thread is and how it come to current stage, typical of what happening in this forum, but I would like to do it only as my last priority..

Dear Wang,
 I don't need to read up on his book yet, preharps you would like to answer my above questions and enlighten whatever you have read up. I prefer to rely on oral transmission, maybe at times read up a little for reference and research. It is almost impossible to answer the above questions by reading books. I see that you maybe still searching answers by books.

I am not aiming at others, but just kindly posing a few dharma questions for you to answer. May be you would to share teachings of you know andPreharps answering here as your last priotry is because you still haven't got an answer yet. Rite?

Whatever answer you got, would like to remind you what I heard from a lot lama(if you didn't come across to it):  For any Dharma study or practice, what we need to make sure is that we have the right intention at the beginning, not for seek of just knowledge, win-over, or self-purpsoe, but search for 'Buddhahood' for sentient beings, and at the end a dedication is needed.  Obviously you are going in other direction..

This is what I have been stressing to others in the forum, I beg to differ that I have not gone the other direction and btw I am responding to your persistency too., as you have launched many personal attacks from your previous postings.

[lightning]

Dear Wang,

For the past ten over years, I have come across Buddhist Sects and met a lot of Spiritual Guides and people. I dare to ask you teachings because I know a bit of teachings and able to distinguish right and wrong.From your previous postings, I can see that you do not know about teachings of the Buddha at all  and lack of distinguishing ability. We must have correct view and let us not become "follow fart worms" (Chinese idiom: follow the rest of the people without contemplating why.)and harm sentient beings, as not it does not benefit the sentient beings at all.

If i do not search Buddhahood for the rest of the sentent beings at all, I would not be asking you Dharma questions? Preharps you would like to ask that Geshe for assistance or other Spiritual Guide for help on the above questions and see whether they can provide valid answers to the Dharma questions poised.

Returning to the main point, we must have distinguishing ability and tell right from wrong and to be able understand the teachings. If not ? telling others that you are practicing Bodhicitta, practicing correct view and benefiting the sentient beings is equal to bluffing people.

Even taking refuge to the Triple Gems, we must be able to understand. If one does not have understanding in taking refuge object properly, one cannot be even considered as taken refuge to the Triple Gem and cannot be considered even as a Buddhist, let alone explaining to people on how to become Buddha for the rest of the Sentient Beings and explaining how to practise Bodhicitta. If you do not believe , may I kindly ask you what exactly is Bodhicitta?

If you truly mentioned that you are searching for Buddhahood for the benefit of the sentinet beings, if you can't even understand the meaning of taking refuge to Triple Gems, how could you ever generate Bodhicitta?
Alike a blind man could see blue, red, orange colours. Alike planting an apple seed can produce a pear tree? Alike planting seeds of ignorance can bring fourth to fruits of Enlightenment?

[Dondrup Shugden]

Since the publication of this article in 2010, many Shugden Lamas have been persecuted by CTA and other lamas who are anti Dorje Shugen.

This is a very interesting article with sound opinions why it is not necessary to talk badly about Lamas by Lamas. And not to accuse Shugden lamas of wrong doing.

This abuses had not stopped and at the current moment of 2015, the language has even gotten to more and more abusive and with profanity as part of the vocabulary. 

[eyesoftara]

There are 2 ways to check if a Tulku authentic.

1) The fastest is the recognition by another Tulku. For example, the Dalai Lama, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche.

2) The claimed incarnation's practice and activities should be for the benefit of others and not for himself. We can also observe by the behavior of his close students and center/monastery. In my humble opinion, even if he was not recognized by other Tulkus, we cannot said for sure he is not a Tulku.

To be sure, the best will be that both the above is fulfilled. Regardless of the practice of the Protector, we should only check by the above criteria. If we are not sure, we should respect and perhaps we don't join the center and the Guru if we are not comfortable. Don't criticise.

And one more point, the Dalai Lama is not the only Lama who can recognize Tulkus. There are many highly attained Lama who can.