Dear Your Holiness Dalai Lama, which is it?

[Ringo Starr]

Your Holiness Dalai Lama,

You cannot have it both ways. Cause and effect is direct, precise, one way.
China is now the world's biggest polluter and just look at Beijing today, highest air pollution alert, no school for the kids, people falling sick. America allows big and small guns to be easily owned and more and more shooting mass murders happen. South East Asia chops and burns forests and clean air has been replaced by regular horrible, choking, hazy conditions. Industrialization has increased global temperature and the ice caps are melting, flooding increasing and land is disappearing. Cause resembles effect, effect resembles cause.

Dalai Lama, your lineage master and the lineage master of millions is Je Tsongkhapa. Je Tsongkhapa, according to his heart son Khedrup Je, first studied Tibetan medicine, then Abhidharma, tenet systems focusing on the Middle Way and Mind Only (Cittam?tra or also called Yog?c?ra) philosophy, Buddhist ethics and epistemology (Pram??a).

Je Tsongkhapa's early studies were pursued mainly in institutions affiliated with two dominant scholarly traditions: the Sangphu tradition founded by Ngok Loden Sherab (1059–1109), and the Sakya epistemological tradition based primarily on the works of Sakya Pa??ita (1182–1251). Both Ngok Loden Sherab and Sakya Pandita are recognized by highly attained Lamas of the Gelug tradition as emanations of enlightened protector Dorje Shugden. In fact, there is a prophecy that the future incarnation of Sakya Pandita with return as a future Buddha.

So, if Dorje Shugden is a devil, then we have all learnt from the devil. We are the all devils in disguise.

If Dorje Shugden is not a devil but an enlightened being, then we have all learnt about the true path out of suffering.

Which is it Dalai Lama?

[yontenjamyang]

Ringo Starr. Your post initially seems to me was going in 2 different directions. But deeper thought I gather what you are saying is that;

"The world is going to hell, and we are still arguing about a Buddha/Spirit"

Is that why you means. If so, witty and meaningful. And I second what you say.

All evidences point to Shugden being a Buddha and we have the ban; while everything in the world and samsara is degenerating.  May the ban be lifted and we can spread the Protectors of these time to the world; for it needs much saving.

[DharmaDefender]

@yontenjamyang soz but I dont think thats what Ringo is trying to get at. From my understanding, hes saying that on the one hand the Dalai Lama teaches Lama Tsongkhapas tradition, and there are these enlightened masters within the lineage that he promotes. Yet on the other hand, he denigrates Dorje Shugden whose previous incarnations were these enlightened masters.

So which one is it - is Dorje Shugden a devil, or an enlightened being (if we take into account the attainments of his previous incarnations?). His question to His Holiness is that it cant be both. You cant be a devil and an enlightened being; you cant call someone a devil yet propagate the teachings of his previous incarnations.

I was told many Tibetans believe this type of flipflopping has led to confusion in the Tibetan community. It was captured in this song;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW7zMS3yBlE

It talks about His Holiness trying to have it both ways and getting involved with many issues like the Karmapa and Panchen Lama, thereby leading to problems. But Id like to add one more - His Holiness has changed his mind about China on multiple occassions, leading to many factions within Tibetan society who stand up for what they believe to be His Holiness opinion at any given point in time. Hence why you have one group that supports rangzen / independence, because they say that was His Holiness view at one point. Then youve another group for umaylam because they assume His Holiness supports that now, or did in the past. And in the third instance, a group of people supporting autonomy because His Holiness has spoken about that before.

I dont know about the whole confusion thing and Im not going to comment on secret motivation or whatever, but what it reflects for me is the influence and power of the Dalai Lamas speech in Tibetan society. No Dorje Shugden ban couldve come about and become so prevalent and powerful if His Holiness had not said something. Does everyone listen to Lobsang Sangye? No and to be honest, none of us know what impact or work hes done because hes not the Dalai Lama. So it would be silly to say the Dorje Shugden ban did not start with the Dalai Lama, because theres no one else in Tibetan society who is as powerful as the Dalai Lama to create something of such significance.

[VeronicaSmith]

That is the insane hypocrisy of the situation, Dorje Shugden is heavily rooted to the teachings and lineages. To say that he is bad and evil is to undermine the foundation of your practice and all you preach for. It is ridiculous. Also it is completely unreasonable for the Dalai Lama and his people to approach the situation to say that they don't have a ban and they also promote it and continue to preach about the evil of Dorje Shugden while saying that they have no part in any of it.

So the people behind their claims and the ones behind the suffering really need to solidify their claims and their stories. Otherwise they are going to be discovered, it is only a matter of time until the world sees this and puts an end to this madness for the better.

[DharmaSpace]

Dorje Shugden line of incarnations had so many perfect masters, translators, mahasiddhas, Tibetan script creators like Birwapa and so forth, so all of these are wrong? Many of Dorje Shudgen previous incarnations shaped the growth of Tibetan Buddhism.

Like the tibetan script was created by an incarnation of Dorje Shudgen, aren't all Tibetan lamas using the devil's work then?

Thank you DD for your insight into what Ringo had written.

[vajrastorm]

A study of every incarnation of the whole incarnation lineage of Dorje Shugden shows clearly that the tapestry of Tibetan Buddhism was in the main shaped by them. Each has played a hugely significant role in the growth of Dharma in Tibet and in the world - Mahasiddha Virupa, Thonmi Sambhota, King Trisong Detsen, Mahasiddha Naropa, Lotsawa Loden Sherab, Ra Lotsawa,Shakya Shri Bhadra, Sakya Pandita, Buton Rinchen Drub, Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa.

 With every one of them being fully enlightened and great Masters and Mahasiddhas, from whose works HH Dalai Lama has drawn (directly or idirectly)for his teachings, it is just too mind-boggling to understand how the Dalai Lama could turn around and say BUT SHUGDEN IS A SPIRIT. For by insisting that Shugden is a spirit, he is saying that all of Shugden's previous incarnations are also spirits and cannot be relied on. Then he must tell his followers that "I have made a mistake. I have relied on a lineage of incarnations of spirits and their works, which are the sources of my teachings." 

So Dalai Lama, can you please explain?

[grandmapele]

Oh Vajrastorm, you hit the nail on the head! The incarnation of Dorje Shugden were great teachers and their works are still being used for teaching even in Gaden Monastery and Sera Mey Monastery who uses the translated works of Lotsawa Loden Sherab and the Panchen Sonam Darkpa's 11 volumes of work. LOL....if Dorje Shugden is a spirit then Gaden Monastery and  Sera Mey Monastery are still learning the works of the incarnation of a spirit!!

[kris]

From what I understand, CTA's argument is that all they are not denying the lineage of Dulzin Drakpa Gyaltsen, etc, but they are denying that Dorje Shugden arose from Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen. Therefore, they are still using the texts from Panchen Sonam Drakpa, etc.

However, if this is the case, then it contradicts with what HH Trijang Rinpoche's teaching, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, where HH Trijang Rinpoche said the incarnation of Dorje Shugden arose from Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen. If HH Trijang Rinpoche can be wrong about His teachings, then HH Trijang Rinpoche can also be wrong about His other teachings too? And since Trijang Rinpoche was HH Dalai Lama's teaching, does it mean HH Dalai Lama's teaching can be wrong too?

So, which is it?