Dorje shugden old Thangka

[kalsanggg]

I found this old thangka which depicts HHDL on the left side and Phabongkha Rinpoche on the right side. I was wondering whether anyone can tell something about it.

[psylotripitaka]

Here's a fairly thorough description: http://www.himalayanart.org/items/30987

If that is where you actually found the image, perhaps you could be more specific with us about what you are trying to understand about it.

[eyesoftara]

To me what the Thangka depicts is that both the lineage of Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo and the Dalai Lama support Dorje Shugden's lineage and is working to propagate the Dorje Shugden and the Protector of our times.
What is manifested today is Pabongka Rinpoche's lineage mainly stay local to Dorje Shugden while the Dalai Lama's manifested anti Shugden to promote Shugden. There is no contradiction here to me. Both are working to promote Manjushri as a Protector.

[yontenjamyang]

Again these are indication that from the 5th Dalai Lama until the 1996 or so, the Dalai Lamas manifested approval to the Protector Dorje Shugden practice. Why suddenly the 14th Dalai Lama "realise" the protector is a spirit.
Does that mean the Dalai Lamas from the 5th to the 14th dis not have the clairvoyance to see that? If so, then the Dalai Lamas of old cannot be trusted as the Dalai Lama and this incarnation is by definition also cannot be trusted as He claims to be an incarnation of the previous Dalai Lama.

If so, we have a paradox that either way the Dalai Lama is wrong. Hence, we also have option and that is the Protector is enlightened and the 14th Dalai Lama is "lying" for some bigger reasons.

[SabS]

Thank you for sharing these pictures kalsanggg. Its interesting to see the 14th Dalai Lama drawn into the picture that obviously showed Protector Dorje Shugden as a practise of the Dalai Lama. In fact, if going by this picture, then the Dalai Lama would be one of the lineage Gurus to his line of transmission. I truly wonder what is the reason he had imposed the ban on Dorje Shugden as obviously he is not a "spirit". If it were to promote and spread Shugden's practise then shouldn't the ban be removed now as it had established itself in almost every corner of the world. What is stopping the Dalai Lama from lifting the ban?

[pgdharma]

From the thangkha it indicates that both Pabongkha Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama propitiated Dorje Shugden. Pabongka Rinpoche still stay true to the practice but the Dalai Lama has turned his back on Dorje Shugden. I wonder why the Dalai Lama, who has clairvoyance, suddenly decided to say that Dorje Shugden is a spirit and imposed the ban? Could the Dalai Lama have a “bigger” purpose for the ban? Sometimes it is difficult for ordinary beings like us to understand the motivation of the enlightened being. But whatever the reason, with  due respect, we hope that out of compassion for sentient beings, Shugdenpas included, the Dalai Lama would consider lifting the ban.

[DharmaDefender]

Here's a fairly thorough description: http://www.himalayanart.org/items/30987

If that is where you actually found the image, perhaps you could be more specific with us about what you are trying to understand about it.

Well if we work off the link that you found, the thangka was completed any time between 1900 - 1959. Years wise, its a wide range but the entire period can be placed squarely before the ban or any kind of controversy related to Dorje Shugden.

Whats significant is the fact the 14th Dalai Lama and Pabongka Rinpoche appear at the same level as Lama Tsongkhapa and his two heart sons. It indicates their of the same level as Lama Tsongkhapa in terms of attainments and can be regarded as such. And whats more is they both appear above the three long life yidams.

Then youve Shugden painted at the same level as the other protectors like Pelden Hlamo and Vaishravana and Kalarupa indicating hes at the same level as them in terms of attainments. If Shugden were a spirit why paint a spirit at the same level as enlightened Dharma Protectors?

And why do people now talk about a conflict between the 14th Dalai Lama and Pabongka Rinpoches views, if they were painted to the same level before the Dorje Shugden ban? If theres no conflict between the 14th Dalai Lama and Pabongka Rinpoches views, and their of the same attainments then Pabongka Rinpoches views regarding Shugden are valid and unmistaken.

Nice find @kalsanggg

[Gabby Potter]

This is a very powerful thangka I must say, the great 5th endorsed Dorje Shugden and had even written prayers to the enlightened deity. How does it make people think when suddenly the current Dalai Lama "decided" that Dorje Shugden is bad? If we believe that His Holiness is enlightened, then we should know what an enlightened mind is capable of doing. Isn't this enough to reconsider the validity of the ban?

[Tenzin Malgyur]

Much thanks to kalsanggg for posting the two pictures of the old Thangka. I must say it's very unique to see Dorje Shugden appearing on the same Thangka with HH Dalai Lama and HH Pabongka Rinpoche. Appreciate the clear and simple explanation from DharmaDefender too on the attainments of each of the great masters based on the position and placing on the sacred painting.

Surely it is not possible for a spirit to be on the same level as the Dharma Protectors? Or is it just possible that a Dharma Protector in the 1950s be turned into a spirit many years on? Hmmm...

[grandmapele]

Thank you, kalsanggg for the nice find of this thangka.

Thank you, DharmaDefender for the clea explanation of the thangka. When I first saw the thangka, I did not know what to make of it. But thanks to you, I now know the significance and importance of this thangka.

It indicates the attainments of the 14th Dalai Lama and Pabongka Rinpoche. And, it also shows that Dorje Shugden is on the same level as the other enlightened protectors. So, there is no conflict but a symbiosis of the two lamas.