Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is

[crazycloud]

[Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen] was one of the most prominent lamas of his day, and in fact in some circles was held in even higher regard than was the Great Fifth, for the Fifth at the time was still in his youth.

Ngawang Losang Gyatso b. 1617
Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, b. 1619

Once again, silly scholarship designed to make excuses. The Firfth Dalai Lama was OLDER that Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen.

[vinayaholder]

1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?
1. We venerate and respect our lineage Gurus so highly, as guru devotion is the foundational building block of Tibetan Buddhism. We see them as Buddhas and trust them to take us all the way to Enlightenment. Therefore, logically, if all the High Lamas and Protectors support His Holiness, then HH must be the real deal.

2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?
2. Methinks HH has a much bigger picture in mind than just taking a stand about this protector issue. What HH has really accomplished after years of the Shugden ban is to raise awareness and the profile of the protector Dorje Shugden to a global level. He's splashed all over the internet and global news media. And HH supporters are knowingly/unknowingly propogating this awareness further. In conclusion, it is out of pure COMPASSION that HH is putting his reputation at stake.

3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?
Course not. It says in the refuge vows that 'one is protected from harm by spirits etc' when one takes refuge. I'm sure HH has taken refuge....

Here's the flipside: Why is it that all the countless fire pujas and exorcism rituals performed by attained masters have failed to bind/destroy/control one angry "spirit"? YOU THINK?

[Vajraprotector]

The whole issue is meaningless. Because:
1 - He is a human being (a fact)
2 - He is the leader of Tibetans (a fact)
3 - everything else in him, is unproveable (a fact)

All the questions about whether he is or is not the "real thing" are meaningless, because the previously mentioned three points hold true in any event and anything beyond those three, is just imagination, an opinion, a view, or a social contract.

So in that same way, for the sake of discussion, I could say that

1 - Dorje Shugden is a spirit in the glass of Gyalpo (a fact)

2 - He has passed away (witnessed by many) and has taken rebirth as a spirit after being "murdered" by the followers of the 5th Dalai Lama, hence similar / no different than an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit who has an inferior form ( a fact)
3 - everything else in him, is unproveable
 
Why would anyone care, or even think about, whether Dorje Shugden is "this or that". For he is a spirit, that's all. There is no beyond.

I personally don’t think that it is so simple to judge the book by it's cover. There are many things that we cannot prove as a fact because there simply is no "agreed by all" way to ‘measure’ or show visible it’s existence at this point of time. So you not being able to see Dorje Shugden doesn’t mean he doesn’t exists and that the fact is he doesn’t exist.  I don’t agree point 3 saying that everything else about the Dalai Lama (or in my case Dorje Shugden) is unproveable- there are many ways to prove it, but perhaps not the western scientific way that we have been taught in schools/ college.

Let’s say you have no tradition of oracles, then normal people like you and me wouldn’t be able to ‘see’ Dorje Shugden or prove his existence at all. But to the Tibetans, the protector taking trance through the various oracles, and his continuum in the sense of knowledge/ memories/ consistency has been a valid proof for them for centuries.

I personally think Dorje Shugden is more than just a Gyalpo and His Holiness the Dalai Lama is “just a politician”. If His Holiness is merely a politician that is destroying Dharma & creating “schism” in the Sangha without any reason,  do you think all Dharma Protectors, especially Dorje Shugden who has vowed to especially protect the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa would allow him to continue to destroy Tibetan Buddhism’s image and the Dharma?

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear Lhakpa Gyaltshen,

Please tell us more of what Dorje Shugden said and about 'retribution'? When and where was it said?

Do give us more details please.

TK

[Zhalmed Pawo]

The whole issue is meaningless. Because:
1 - He is a human being (a fact)
2 - He is the leader of Tibetans (a fact)
3 - everything else in him, is unproveable (a fact)

All the questions about whether he is or is not the "real thing" are meaningless, because the previously mentioned three points hold true in any event and anything beyond those three, is just imagination, an opinion, a view, or a social contract.

So in that same way, for the sake of discussion, I could say that

1 - Dorje Shugden is a spirit in the glass of Gyalpo (a fact)

2 - He has passed away (witnessed by many) and has taken rebirth as a spirit after being "murdered" by the followers of the 5th Dalai Lama, hence similar / no different than an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit who has an inferior form ( a fact)

3 - everything else in him, is unproveable
 
Why would anyone care, or even think about, whether Dorje Shugden is "this or that". For he is a spirit, that's all. There is no beyond.

Ah, but you could not say that.

1 - Although Dorje Shugden is a non-material being, the issue of whether he is of this or that class remains disputable, not a fact. Hence all the hulabaloo. (In fact, most Buddhists do not even know what a gyalpo or tsen means, so these are hardly facts, even by general Buddhist standards, but just some Tibetan superstitious ballyhoo.)

2 - Drakpa Gyaltsen has passed away, yes, a fact, but we do not know how he died or what happened to him afterwards, but since we are not making pujas to him but to Dorje Shugden, it does not matter. Drakpa Gyaltsen is a case of rumours, not facts.

3 - The cases of Dorje Shugden being in truth Manjushri, and Dalai Lama in truth Avalokita, are not facts, but religious beliefs, applicable only within certain schools of Buddhism.

But when it comes to the Dalai Lama, it is sure that he is a human being, since he has a mother with a womb, and a father with, well, a vajra. This is a fact. And whether the Dalai Lama is the leader of Tibetans, well, this is a fact, disputed only by Beijing. Whether he is a Bhikkhu, is not proven. Not a fact. But he is a human leader, factually. Maybe we could just see him in that way, through the facts, universally accepted and proveable. For his disciples who have received an empowerment, he is factually of course a Buddha, but that is not generally applicable view, nor an universally valid truth, but merely a tantric view. Similarly, we hold Dorje Shugden to be a Buddha, because of the tradition of Vajrayana. For a Theravadin or a Zen practitioner, neither the Dalai Lama or our Dorje Shugden are Buddhas. This has to be understood. The view of them being Avalokita and Manjushri applies only within certain circles, not outside.

But to the question of why would anyone care, or even think about, whether Dorje Shugden is "this or that", for he is a spirit, that's all, the answer lies in not his alleged status as a Buddha or a demon, but in his status as a religious object of faith and worship. Of course the same could be said of the Dalai Lama, but then again, he is evidently, factually, a human leader of humans, so he is in a different class, when it comes to the Law, and the Freedom of Worship. He can and should be criticized, ousted and censured, if need be, as he is a human leader, but Shugden cannot and should not, as he is a deity.

[Lineageholder]

Well, I tend to follow Dagom Rinpoche's view, that the Dalai Lama is the Dalai Lama in name. 

What does this mean?  What did Dagom Rinpoche say exactly?

[Zhalmed Pawo]

OK, maybe this needs to be spelled out clearly for it to be understood:

How about treating humans as humans?
Not as some previous humans, not as gods-in-flesh, not as ideals, but just humans.

Anyone care to join me in this horridly revolutionary and utterly irrational view?
Namely: Seeing humans as humans.


 

[DharmaDefender]

Dear Lineageholder,
You didn't answer about the Protectors. Since you seem to know quite a bit about the mind of human beings, I surmise that you might be able to know the answer to the "Protectors" part too. It would be interesting to listen to it.

My understanding is that all these oracles channel worldly spirits, not enlightened protectors like Dorje Shugden.

Eh? What about the oracle who was present at the Shar Gaden opening??? Is he a fake too, and only channelling a worldly spirit...? 

[DharmaDefender]

1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?

2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?

3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?

1. Urgh, that's one book I really didn't like even if it was supposedly in support of our dharma protector. I've never read something so militant and venomous in my life - it was entirely focused on destroying people's faith in HHDL, and had nothing to do with supporting our protector and educating people about our protector. Our protector's never once uttered a word against HHDL, so why should we?? Anyway, I like to think all the high lamas are in cahoots with HHDL and DS, and thinking of skilful means to increase how famous DS becomes. So on both sides, there are high lamas supporting either POVs to keep the issue going (if too many high lamas go to one side of the issue, it's going to make it very one-sided and not worth a debate)

2. To me, it's clearly not about the money as many DS people keep claiming. I mean, doesn't he earn more from having a good reputation? (look at what happened to Tiger Woods! Hehe) HHDL reads news reports, he hears from his people what's going on, and anyone who isn't blind can see that his reputation is slowly being eroded. I don't think it's arrogance manifesting as obliviousness as some would suggest, because no one can be THAT oblivious.

3. No he can't be harmed, that's why I think anti-DS people need to think a little deeper! Someone needs to remind them (nicely!) that many high lamas have practised DS and come back without any problems!

[vinayaholder]

...let's consider a recent speech by the Dalai Lama himself earlier this month in Bodh Gaya.  He claims his ban on Shugden is definitive and final, not something that should be ignored as interpretive.  So from the DL's side himself, he is denying he wants people to ignore his advice on this and continue doing Dorje Shugden practice anyways.....   So it is precisely this view mentioned in quotes above that he is seeking to refute now.

If I was the Dalai Lama, I too would 'make a stand' to deny emerging public opinion that I was trying to promote Dorje Shugden's practice in a skilful subtle way. Why? Because if that was really true, it would weaken his entire game plan if the truth came to light. Dorje Shugden's practice is growing even more in popularity and awareness but not yet at a level where it is unstoppable. Hence DL continues to stand firm on this issue.

Also, this Dalai Lama may never officially change his mind on this issue but who know what the next Dalai Lama will do? Many people who follow this Dalai Lama's words unthinkingly will be gone, many who have received direct teachings from him will also be gone. When the current Dalai Lama passes on, what will the Tibetan government do? The next generation of Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhist practitioners will have much more freedom of choice, no longer backed into a corner by Guru Devotion or politics.

Well, that's what i'd like to think. There are so many lamas who have received teachings from DL and who are following his way. And many more from other lineages who support this ban. And those who do not comply by the ban but have outwardly sworn in. If we look up to them as our teachers, there must be some sense in what they are doing, not just self interest or self protection.

[a friend]

Sorry to repeat something that I have said in different ways a thousand times now. But either Beggar is back with a vengeance or he procreated and his kids have just invaded the website. This is a joke of course, and my love for Beggar is unshakable, but my disagreement with him has not ceased. So, for those like Beggar who fantasize that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of some skillful means, here goes again.

 --I consider a wrong view quite pernicious to go about saying that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of compassion in order to disseminate the cult of the Protector, or in order to benefit in some other unknown mysterious way the teachings and beings or even the Tibetans. This sounds quite virtuous, to maintain this view, but it´s not. It´s a wrong view, a type of superstition, maintained either out of innocent ignorance or out of other motivations, like repeating what others are saying or even out of some compassion for the Dalai Lama´s followers.
But Buddhas act like in the Anglo-Saxon law: following precedents. For instance, the Buddhas with the marks they all are born in the Himalayas, they all are enlightened sitting under the Bodhi Tree, etc. There is no precedent of a Buddha that shows himself as such (and the Dalai Lama does, since he accepts the title of Chenrezig that he´s been awarded with) there is no precedent that they turn against their Gurus or that they split the Sangha or that they massively persecute people out of religious discrimination. Lord Atisha didn´t do this, Lord Tsongkapa didn´t do this, and that´s that: enough precedence for me, as to how a Guru/Buddha should conduct himself in the face of the world.
How do you imagine that Buddhas that give the appearance of Guru/Buddhas go about showing the opposite of that which is their main, basic job: to show beings what to adopt and what to abandon? This doesn´t stand to reason.
(Here I beg any potential debater to please not come back again with examples that have nothing, nothing to do with this case, like Tilopa eating fish in front of Naropa or Marpa throwing Mila through the window; this does not fall into the public level I am talking about, that has nothing to do with the intimate Guru/disciple relationship. So please skip these and other similar examples. Skip also that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche said this or that. Kyabje Rinpoche was the Guru of the Dalai Lama and loved his disciple tenderly and never abandoned him; while he was alive he tried to maintain the door open for him to make amends, and for the Tibetans in exile not to loose hope, but once he passed away … a door closed in a definitive way, so do not try to give me that one either).

So please, again, try not to demean the holy Buddha's actions by trying to give a seal of approval to that which only deserves our sad silence at best.
Lord Atisha in his compassion spoke quite severely against this contempt of the conventional truth. He said: "However, if one ignores the valid conventional level of truth ... one will mishandle conventional truths such as good and bad, cause and effect, etc., and will suffer in this and future lives."

[dsnowlion]

Just some interesting reads I'd like to share.

I've learned from the lineage history of Dorje Shugden that in Dorje Shugden's previous incarnations, he and the Dalai Lama was very close and often manifested as student and/or  teacher and vice versa. Here is just an example extracted from shugden.tripod.com.

Panchen Yeshe Wang-po : (1507-1566)
When the Third Dalai Lama and Panchen Wang-po, then twenty-two years old, were teaching in Kham and Mongolia, the Dharma king of Mongolia, Alten Khan bestowed a special name and high position to Panchen Wangpo. On their return to central Tibet, the Third Dalai Lama and Panchen Wang-po went to Demchok Choling in Dena; Chamdo Jambuling in Kham. The Third Dalai Lama told him to stay in Chamdo to resolve a political problem that was brewing there. He was also put in charge of the making of a large Buddha statue for Gerchen in Litang. The Third Dalai Lama wrote a praise of Panchen Wang-po's works. Panchen Wang-po wrote a poem of praise of the life of the Third Dalai Lama and also wrote a history of Buddhism and many other works.

Panchen Sönam Tsemo :  (1567-1626)
Ngawang Sönam Geley (Panchen Söman Tsemo) was born in the earth horse year (52nd) of the tenth rabjam (1567-1626) in Reboo near Yur-ka. His father's name was Saype and mother was Sönam Drolma. He was reciting many mantras at an early age and he also remember his previous life as Panchen Wang-po.

Yonten Gyatso, the Fourth Dalai Lama and Sönam Geley went to Chomoling, near Lhasa. They studied Sutra and Tantra together as well as being each other's teacher. At this time many Mongolian Pilgrims came to Lhasa and made offering to Sönam Geley and requested teaching. Sönam Geley and Panchen Chokyi Gyeltsen gave gelong vows to the Fourth Dalai Lama.

It's really interesting to be witnessed of this new controversy and how it will shape the world's future. What I find truly interesting is that the more harsh HH the Dalai Lama is to Dorje Shugden ban, the more it FUELS it. The more the world feeds on it. It's like as if HH is trying to create a huge awareness campaign about Dorje Shugden indirectly so that poeple who are against it will 'shutup' (the real political sactarians and power hunger insecure ones) while people who does the practice, their Guru Devotion is put to the ultimate test.  What do you all think?

Yes on one hand it looks so uncompassionate of HH the Dalai Lama to be letting so many people get hurt now, but does it out weigh the billions of people it will benefit in the future? China is big, but the world plus China? HUGE!

I am sure the Dalai Lama would have thought about all the consequences. Yet He is so kind to sacrifice his name and what people think of him for now. At the momentit appears like he is the BAD Dorje Shugden cop. We really cannot judge anyone's motive and sometimes the results can only be seen far later in the future.

What more is there to say after hearing the news on HH Gaden Trisur's defect to Shar Gaden.
I doubt HH Gaden Trisur is not purposely trying to go against Dalai Lama. WHO knows maybe he is making a stand to set an example on following what is true to your heart because it is truth. For all we know maybe Gaden Trisur, Dalai Lama and all the high Lamas are orchestrating this whole issue to plant and preserve Dorje Shugden practice well into the future, I don't know, but who knows???

Whatever it may be, it's best to just sincerely do your own practice, stay away from politics as Dharma is about renouncing worldly agendas. I read somewhere, perhaps on this site itself that HH Trijang Dorje Chang said that we should not lose faith in HH Dalai lama and also the Protector Dorje Shugden. I can't wait for His bio book to be out!


Make Love Not War!

[WisdomBeing]

Great debates going on here...

i'm also for 'make love not war'...

On a personal level, I have created a petition which i hope will garner some awareness and support:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/allegiance-to-holy-dorje-shugden

Keep debating... it's the core of Tibetan Buddhism, but it's not necessary to get personal. I'd like to think that we can respect each other's opinions though we can beg to disagree.

from a wannabe wisdom being 

[vinayaholder]

Thank you Kate! I've just signed the petition and I encourage everyone to do so too!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/allegiance-to-holy-dorje-shugden

Tenzin

[Vajraprotector]

Dear Zhalmed Pawo,
I do agree with you that your points are very logical, and thanks for sharing your ideas.
But some questions from me below that I hope you can help me understand:

 Ah, but you could not say that.
1 - Although Dorje Shugden is a non-material being, the issue of whether he is of this or that class remains disputable, not a fact. Hence all the hulabaloo. (In fact, most Buddhists do not even know what a gyalpo or tsen means, so these are hardly facts, even by general Buddhist standards, but just some Tibetan superstitious ballyhoo.)


How do you prove that Dorje Shugden exist then- whether he's a gyalpo or tsen etc?
Are you saying because he is a non-material being, hence we cannot prove that he exist ?
Then how about Buddhas? They exist as non-material beings too.
How do you explain the oracles and the high lamas (including His Holiness himself) composing praises etc? Are they then mere superstition? You said that, in your second point, "making pujas to Dorje Shugden". Why do so if he doesn't exist?
Does it mean all these 'methods' are discounted because these methods cannot objectively prove a non-material being exi

 3 -
whether the Dalai Lama is the leader of Tibetans, well, this is a fact, disputed only by Beijing.

If it is disputed by Beijing, who officially owns Tibet, and this fact is not officially recognised by any government in writing, how can this be a fact?

Also, the purpose of asking questions to ponder who Dalai Lama is, is to encourage discussion of whether or not there is something else than just judging the book by its cover. This is because I feel that many sites that I’ve visited, it’s either they are pro Dalai Lama & against DS or pro Dorje Shugden & against Dalai Lama. 

If the pro-Dalai Lama group is right, then why can’t  Dalai Lama or any high lama from Tibet who could subdue/vanquish evil spirits kill Dorje Shugden– since Dorje Shugden is a spirit and a huge threat to Dalai Lama.

If  the pro- Dorje Shugden is right, that Dalai Lama is false and has mixed politics with religion –unlike the 1st- 4th Dalai Lama who promoted Dharma purely; I do think Dalai Lama is doing his job – he’s the one who has made Tibetan Buddhism a household name, especially among the celebrities and world politicians , and is the no. 1 icon of Tibetan Buddhism, which no other lama can rival at this time.
Also, due to this controversy, Dorje Shugden practice has received much more publicity and is growing bigger and stronger. So isn’t that what he’s doing – promoting the Dharma? In fact no Tibetan Lama is more famous than him in this time in promoting Tibetan Buddhism and “promoting” Dorje Shugden regardless of what they have done.
What does everybody think?