Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is

[Lineageholder]

It's the same old arguments...they don't sound any fresher or more convincing for the fifth time!

What does everybody think?

I think I'm about to be sick! 

Perhaps I should benefit the Dharma through enforced signature campaigns, disparaging my Gurus, evicting monks from their monasteries, splitting up families, sticking up 'wanted posters' in Dharamsala encouraging violence towards Shugden practitioners and speaking hypocritically?

Only Langdarma did a better job of promoting the Dharma than the Dalai Lama!      Perhaps they are related?

[Vajraprotector]

Dear Lineageholder and everyone,

I do really wish to hear and learn points that are fresh and convincing   because I am not convinced with:

a) the "political" reasons why I must hate Dalai Lama for being a hypocrite who's power crazy and has disparaged his Gurus, who has caused Tibetan Buddhism to deteriorate. Image wise yes, but growth wise, it has actually a reverse effect.

b) the arguments that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit which I also wonder - so many high lamas propagate, practise and wrote/ talks about Dorje Shugden's mental continuum being that of exalted lamas. And that these lamas, e.g. Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche are back!

I am confused because in the various Dharma books and prayers, I was taught to believe (all these while) that Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara and Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, and it seems to contradict.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Only Langdarma did a better job of promoting the Dharma than the Dalai Lama!   

Now now, do not speak bad about King Langdarma. According to the most recent views about the old history of Tibet, Langdarma did not do anything against the Dharma. He merely withdrew the stately allowances and benefits from the monasteries. So all he did, was that he did not to do anything. (And this he had to do, since the State was bankrupt.) He did not destroy anything, except the grand plans of some monastic estate-masters. That's all.

[a friend]

Dear Dharmadefender, Vajraprotector and other Vinayaholders and Noobs as they have just been baptised:

There is a difference between it doesn't mean I'll ever talk bad about the Dalai Lama and propounding that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of some secret good motivation, because he is a Great Bodhisattva.
There is no Buddha that ever campaigned against his Gurus,
ever campaigned against the lineage Gurus,
ever dared say that his Gurus are WRONG, yes, with this tone, WRONG, and he, right;
ever forced people to break their samaya with their own Gurus,
ever forced a schism in the Sangha
ever persecuted people, let alone for religious reasons.

Lord Atisha didn´t do it
Lord Tsong Khapa didn´t do it

This should suffice for anyone that uses his mind with the tools of reasoning --a very special characteristic of our lineage-- to stop saying such nonsense as we´ve read from some posts in the last days. I would like those who are writing along those lines, whether they are one or many, Noobs or old ones  to think twice before demeaning the enlightened actions of our Buddhas by comparing them to the actions of the Tibetan leader.
One thing is to say I don't know which his intentions were, another, entirely different, is to speculate that he might´ve had good motivations. In Buddhism there is no good motivations for the list of actions described above, in particular there is no good motivation to mistreat your Lama, to betray him. So instead of speculating about the bad karma that those who criticize the DL might incur, think on the karmic repercusions for yourself or those who are disseminating this terrible view, that Guru Buddhas can act in such non Dharmic ways and still be called Guru Buddhas. Now, this brings the destruction of Dharma, to confuse people about such serious matter. So please for your own sake, think twice.

[Lineageholder]

a) the "political" reasons why I must hate Dalai Lama for being a hypocrite who's power crazy and has disparaged his Gurus, who has caused Tibetan Buddhism to deteriorate. Image wise yes, but growth wise, it has actually a reverse effect.

I am confused because in the various Dharma books and prayers, I was taught to believe (all these while) that Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara and Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, and it seems to contradict.

Dear Vajraprotector,

We should not hate the Dalai Lama, we should pity him while at the same time not excusing his destructive actions and trying to dress them up to appear spiritual simply because we don't want to let go of the idea that he's a Buddha.

There is no evidence from the Dalai Lama's actions that he's a Buddha.  Does a Buddha cause suffering or develop irrational wishes to abandon the spiritual practices given to them by their Gurus?

I find it curious that you want to attribute the development of the Dharma to the Dalai Lama's actions.  Why do you make that connection?  Why don't you think it's due to 'damage limitation' actions by Dorje Shugden and all the other Buddhas and Dharma protectors?  The very function of Dorje Shugden is to cause the Dharma to flourish in these degenerate times.  I think he's doing a very good job, despite interference by the Dalai Lama.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

How do you prove that Dorje Shugden exist then- whether he's a gyalpo or tsen etc?
Are you saying because he is a non-material being, hence we cannot prove that he exist ?

Yes. And the same holds to them all, like for instance Manjushri the Peaceful, Avalokita, Vajrapani, etc. They cannot be proven to exist, at least in an open way. They are religious beliefs, not universal facts. (A practitioner with certain experiences might have a different story to tell, but, and this is the but, he cannot prove it to non-practitioners.)

Then how about Buddhas? They exist as non-material beings too.

Yes, but maybe not. Doctrinally the existence of a Buddha, a Tathagata, is beyond the scope of language and concepts. They might be perceived as partaking in our lives, but you cannot prove it universally.

How do you explain the oracles and the high lamas (including His Holiness himself) composing praises etc? Are they then mere superstition? 

Anybody with a pen and a piece of paper can compose anything. I have no further view on this matter.

You said that, in your second point, "making pujas to Dorje Shugden". Why do so if he doesn't exist?

If I make an concentrated wish of good, it has a function, and I never said that Shugden would not exist. I merely said that the avalokitahood of Dalai Lama is logically on the same stool as the devilhood of Shugden. They depend on issuance.

Does it mean all these 'methods' are discounted because these methods cannot objectively prove a non-material being exi [sic]

No buddhist is asking to be "proofed about" the existence of this or that. If you are a Buddhist, you'll agree. If you are a Buddhist disputant, you'll agree also. To even ask, that if "methods cannot objectively prove a non-material being" pretty much shows, that you are not a Buddhist. Or then maybe you are merely a Buddhist super-disputant. I'll let the "debate-audience" to judge on that matter.


And as to the Tibet issue, it really does not matter. Everybody, including the Commie China, thinks that Dalai Lama is the Leader of Tibetans, for if they wouldn't, there wouldn't be a problem with Beijing and TGIE.

[Big Uncle]

Guys, honestly I don't know for sure if he is emanation of Chenrezig or he is who he say he is. There are quite a lot of people who believe that he is and there are many who don't as well. Both of these groups have relatively good points to state their case. I don't deny the atrocities and persecution that is happening and I don't think it is even remotely Buddhist. 

However, what I am really concerned is Dorje Shugden. Is the Dalai Lama's policy successful in eliminating this practice or is it making it big? Personally, I feel that instead of wiping Dorje Shugden out, he is making this practice bigger than ever. The Chinese are promoting it, NKT with Dorje Shugden amongst its main practices, it is probably the biggest group of centers in the world and along with WSS loudly asserting their rights! There is unprecedented publicity going on all the time on the net, media and amongst critics about how evil the Dalai Lama is and how Dorje Shugden practitioners are being persecuted. This sounds like the persecution of the Roman Christians a long time ago. They faired a lot worse as they were captured and were fed to the lions as part of the deadly gladiator sports. Now look what happened to the Christian faith? Anyway, I think Dorje Shugden practice will probably outlive Dalai Lama (no disrespect intended if he is Chenrezig incarnate but he is still in a human body) and then what? It goes mainstream worldwide or it dies off? 

 

[a friend]

Dear Trinley Kelsang,
Thank you for bringing up this issue and facing it.
I confess that trying to stop this wrong view that harms Dharma in general (the view about DL as Buddha, and DL doing heavy non virtuous deeds that in reality one should consider great) I overlooked the obvious: that the main argument of its proponents might not be a valid argument.
And now that you state it, I can see how this is true, their argument is not a valid argument, at best is a sophism. Let´s look again:
1- the fact that our sacred Protector´s name has become somehow famous because of the demonization didn´t bring multitudes to his practice, this is simply not true. And I fail to imagine which is the advantage to have given the world an image of our holy Protector as a demon, a being intent in harming.
2- the fact of the persecution has destroyed in actuality the Gelugpa Sangha, and I really can´t see the advantage of this, either for the teachings nor for sentient beings.
3- the situation in the Tibetan communities in the whole world has become a nightmare for practitioners and families of practitioners, and definitively not conducive for the practice of Dharma in general and our holy lineage´s teachings in particular.
4- the situation in Tibet is appalling, the people sent by the DL and his government have destroyed the peace of monastic communities; Litang has been more than once the target of those vigilantes from Dharamsala.
5- in these cases it´s not true that the Chinese support the Protector´s practitioners, if there is the slightest threat of chaos they strike.
6- were all of the above not true, we still are in the position of wondering: where is the advantage for the teachings and sentient beings in the promotion of a cult? We do not want to spread the worshipping of our sacred Protector as if it were some type of self existing celestial figure. Dorje Shugden, our holy one, arises in dependence of Je Tsongkhapa´s teachings and his promise to protect the teachings and the practitioners who have as their main aim in life to become Buddhas for the sake of sentient beings relying on those teachings of Ganden Mountain. All the rest is politics and superstition.

Trinley Kelsang, this website is becoming more and more a political arena. Were it not for the sake of establishing some basic conventional truths for the innocent readers that truly come here to understand this painful issue, I would leave this place altogether.

You please keep on with your amazing historical research, your activities are thoroughly useful and beneficial.

[Ensapa]

so conclusion: Dorje Shudgen made a mistake by saving the Dalai Lama when he should have eliminated him and because he made a mistake Dorje Shudgen's not a Buddha.

If you dont trust Dorje Shudgen's judgement, you dont trust him. ha ha!

stop using Shudgen as an excuse to promote hate. he will not be happy because he's a real Dharma protector. If he was worldy he would have been extremely delighted by all the hate against the Dalai Lama that we have all been talking about here. and if we encourage that we're just proving the point that he is worldy.

or are some people here just here to give a bad impression of Dorje Shudgen practitioners? oh boy.

[vajralight]

Quote
so conclusion: Dorje Shudgen made a mistake by saving the Dalai Lama when he should have eliminated him and because he made a mistake Dorje Shudgen's not a Buddha.

Nobody asserts that Dorje Shugden should or should have eliminated the DL, this comes from your own twisted view.

If you dont trust Dorje Shudgen's judgement, you dont trust him. ha ha!

We'll just have to disagree on what Dorje Shugdens motives are wont we?

stop using Shudgen as an excuse to promote hate. he will not be happy because he's a real Dharma protector. If he was worldy he would have been extremely delighted by all the hate against the Dalai Lama that we have all been talking about here. and if we encourage that we're just proving the point that he is worldy.

or are some people here just here to give a bad impression of Dorje Shudgen practitioners? oh boy.

[i]Nobody is promoting hatred.(Well apart from the DL and TGIE that is). It seems you are trying to tar DS practitioners with your twisted logic brush, but it wont work. All the DS practitioners I know are doing their best to practise Dharma purely and have a good and kind heart. I know they do not have hate for the DL but they dont agree with his actions and most dont believe he is an enlightened being, just a deluded worldly person. Some believe he is a powerful Behar spirit here to destroy authentic Dharma. Those beliefs are their own business and do not make them bad examples. If people stick up for their tradition, with a kind and compasisonate heart (yes and also wrathful)  then I salute them.

[Ensapa]

Quote
so conclusion: Dorje Shudgen made a mistake by saving the Dalai Lama when he should have eliminated him and because he made a mistake Dorje Shudgen's not a Buddha.

Nobody asserts that Dorje Shugden should or should have eliminated the DL, this comes from your own twisted view.

If you dont trust Dorje Shudgen's judgement, you dont trust him. ha ha!

We'll just have to disagree on what Dorje Shugdens motives are wont we?

stop using Shudgen as an excuse to promote hate. he will not be happy because he's a real Dharma protector. If he was worldy he would have been extremely delighted by all the hate against the Dalai Lama that we have all been talking about here. and if we encourage that we're just proving the point that he is worldy.

or are some people here just here to give a bad impression of Dorje Shudgen practitioners? oh boy.

[i]Nobody is promoting hatred.(Well apart from the DL and TGIE that is). It seems you are trying to tar DS practitioners with your twisted logic brush, but it wont work. All the DS practitioners I know are doing their best to practise Dharma purely and have a good and kind heart. I know they do not have hate for the DL but they dont agree with his actions and most dont believe he is an enlightened being, just a deluded worldly person. Some believe he is a powerful Behar spirit here to destroy authentic Dharma. Those beliefs are their own business and do not make them bad examples. If people stick up for their tradition, with a kind and compasisonate heart (yes and also wrathful)  then I salute them.

some of the things here written in this forum strongly imply much hatred and disrespect for DL. which proves their point on why not to practice DS.

I know some Shudgen practitioners who love the Dalai Lama normally, and even if they're uncomfortable with his actions they keep them quiet and not make their beliefs known because they know its gonna aggravate the problems more. They never speak of how bad DL is even when asked under pressure. But they are Shudgen practitioners.

imagine if someone quotes some anti DL quote here and says 'this is EXACTLY why we should not practice Shudgen' wouldnt be the same as making a bad name for Dorje Shudgen? do i need to start a whole PR class?

i'm gonna show this forum to my monk friends maybe they'll laugh really hard when they see how funny some comments can be :p...

[Lineageholder]

i'm gonna show this forum to my monk friends maybe they'll laugh really hard when they see how funny some comments can be :p...

I'm sure they won't laugh half as hard as the Dalai Lama will laugh to realize that no matter how badly he acts, people will still condone what he does and make excuses for him out of blind faith that he's a Buddhist Teacher and Saviour of Tibet.  What you're doing with your posts is subtly advocating keeping quiet because it reflects badly on Dorje Shugden.

Mara will be delighted!

Since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, when the job was politicised, the Dalai Lamas have been able to get away with murder and people have just kept quiet.  Since those of us in the West are not under his power, we can tell the truth.  And make no mistake, we will, to protect this lineage.

[DharmaDefender]

so it's not clear if Shugden practice is "opening" as a result of the DL.

Well I doubt many people outside of the Tibetan communities would've heard of the practice had the Dalai Lama not created such a discordant image of a monk suppressing religious activities?

As far as Dorje Shugden in Tibet goes, yes there are some areas that have remained loyal, but there are also places that have virtually wiped it out (literally in Litang monastery).  After the DL's speeches in January 2008 many people left Pomra Khangtsen in Sera in Lhasa following the DL's purge.  With a few exceptions Dorje Shugden is no where to be seen in Lhasa.

Genuine question (in case you think I'm being smarmy!) - where do you get all of your information from? I've been reading your incredibly well-informed posts and regardless of what you may think of me, I'm very impressed with your sources!

[emptymountains]

Well I doubt many people outside of the Tibetan communities would've heard of the practice had the Dalai Lama not created such a discordant image of a monk suppressing religious activities?

Is that also how to make Tara, Manjushri, and Avalokiteshvara popular? If so, why not ban them for the same 'reason'?!

[Ensapa]

i'm gonna show this forum to my monk friends maybe they'll laugh really hard when they see how funny some comments can be :p...

I'm sure they won't laugh half as hard as the Dalai Lama will laugh to realize that no matter how badly he acts, people will still condone what he does and make excuses for him out of blind faith that he's a Buddhist Teacher and Saviour of Tibet.  What you're doing with your posts is subtly advocating keeping quiet because it reflects badly on Dorje Shugden.

Mara will be delighted!

Since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, when the job was politicised, the Dalai Lamas have been able to get away with murder and people have just kept quiet.  Since those of us in the West are not under his power, we can tell the truth.  And make no mistake, we will, to protect this lineage.

how? by attracting  more hate and misunderstanding to it?