Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is

[Ensapa]

well if DL was directly involved and other than promoting awareness of such events that took place, i dont feel that its going to shake off the horrible accusations done against Shudgen practitioners. If we fight violently its just going to look like we're exactly as they say.

There's a reason why Shudgen practitioners's society in Dharamsala isnt trying to blow up DL, TGIE and other anti Shudgen things: its because they know it will not help.

the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.

I agree that emptymountain's quotes are more helpful, definitely, but you've gone to an extreme.  No one wants to blow up the Dalai Lama because such an action would be against our refuge commitments and also we don't hate the Dalai Lama.  No Shugden practitioner would want to do this.  I feel sorry that the Dalai Lama has 'lost it' but let's not allow that to blind us to how damaging and hypocritical his actions are.

Why you equate my strong speech with blowing up the Dalai Lama is beyond me!  It seems, as crazy cloud said in another thread, you are unable to distinguish between strong speech and hatred.  All I'm doing is trying to show you the facts about the Dalai Lama, what he's really like. 

All I'm offering is the truth, a truth without fighting or violence.

then list the facts minus the emotions or anything unnecessary....because its easier to misquote statements made out of emotion or that contain elaborations than cold hard facts.

i mean if there's no strong negative feelings against DL wouldnt it be sufficient to just quote the way emptymountian did to illustrate the point?

At our situation, its best to not let any room for people to bombard us further. A lot of postings here can be easily taken out of context and used against us. What if someone who wants to defame Shudgen practitioners further quote some posts here out of context and publish it in Tricycle or something that we really do want to bring down DL? If we're posting cold hard facts, that cant be disputed but if we add in our own opinions without quoting like "DL should step down" or something its gonna mean trouble later.

[emptymountains]

the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.

The problem is, the list keeps getting longer and longer and longer... Listing the growth rates of a virus does not stop the virus from growing.

If we're posting cold hard facts, that cant be disputed but if we add in our own opinions without quoting like "DL should step down" or something its gonna mean trouble later.

If the DL is an ordained person, he should step down as a political ruler in the worldly sphere. That's not my opinion, that's Buddha's! Can you quote some cold hard facts that state otherwise?

[LosangKhyentse]

No true blue Dorje Shugden practitioner who follows Lam Rim would ever want to 'blow up' the Dalai Lama. That is against all principles that Dorje Shugden stands for.

I certainly would never wish that to happen. And the hundreds of ppl I have spoken to that practices Dorje Shugden never ever wishes that either. Never.

There are bad Buddhists and good Buddhists. But they do not reflect eachother's views just because both are labelled Buddhists.

TK

[Ensapa]

the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.

The problem is, the list keeps getting longer and longer and longer... Listing the growth rates of a virus does not stop the virus from growing.

If we're posting cold hard facts, that cant be disputed but if we add in our own opinions without quoting like "DL should step down" or something its gonna mean trouble later.

If the DL is an ordained person, he should step down as a political ruler in the worldly sphere. That's not my opinion, that's Buddha's! Can you quote some cold hard facts that state otherwise?

not necessarily because it can be easily countered by "if DL was wrong in assuming political power other highly enlightened beings would have stopped him, or else those beings would have contradicted their vows".

just post the facts. dont mix in personal opinions for reasons aforementioned.

[emptymountains]

not necessarily because it can be easily countered by "if DL was wrong in assuming political power other highly enlightened beings would have stopped him, or else those beings would have contradicted their vows".

Just as highly enlightened beings have always stopped Lamas from gettin' worldly?

I respect the Dalai Lama as I respect all sangha from all lineages because of what they represent.

Your personal example proves one of the WSS's major observations:

The Fourteenth Dalai Lama moves with impunity through his many roles as politician and religious leader. When he does something wrong as a politician, he is excused as a religious leader; and when he does something wrong as a religious leader, he is excused as needing to act as a politician. It seems that no one can 'pin him down'; no one can blame him for anything and he is able to get away with whatever he likes.

[Lineageholder]

not necessarily because it can be easily countered by "if DL was wrong in assuming political power other highly enlightened beings would have stopped him, or else those beings would have contradicted their vows".

Just as highly enlightened beings have always stopped Lamas from gettin' worldly?

This raises a very important point.  Ensapa seems to be making a case for a 'hand of God' situation where the Buddhas would simply stop the Dalai Lama if he was really harmful.  Emptymountains retorts that other Lamas have exhibited worldly and deluded actions in the past and nothing appears to have been done by the Buddhas  to stop them.

I think it's very dangerous to assume that the Buddhas can just stop the Dalai Lama if he's doing wrong, and since he's allowed to 'get away with' banning Dorje Shugden it's a pure action intended to flourish the practice.  The present situation between the DL and Shugden practitioners is our karma.  Buddhas cannot transcend our karma for us - it's said in the scriptures that it is possible to purify negative actions before they ripen, but if they ripen, we have no choice but to accept suffering.  An example in Joyful Path is of a practitioner of Yamantaka tantra who lacked great compassion and so he used wrathful mantras to kill people.  This was a tantric practitioner.  The story ends with the practitioner taking lower rebirth as a hungry spirit due to his negative actions and as Geshe Kelsang says

"Since his negative karma ripened in that way, even the powerful Yamantaka could not help him"


Is this saying that Buddhas are powerless when negative karma ripens?  As Je Tsongkhapa says in Three Principal Aspects of the Path we are

...tightly bound by the chains of karma, so hard to release...

Buddhas cannot transcend our karma, so why is it not possible for the Dalai Lama to be a worldly politician wearing the robes of a monk and using the Dharma for his own purposes?  It's funny that many critics of the NKT accuse Geshe-la's previous successors of wearing the robes of a monk whilst being degenerate and worldly but they never conceive that the Dalai Lama could be.  What if he is?  It's not impossible.

The Buddhas can't just stop him like causing him to be stuck by lightning or something!  The Buddhas need us and they are through the actions of the WSS guiding us to stop the Dalai Lama, but no 'hand of God' is going to descend and make everything alright.  If that were possible, they would have done it by now but as the story from Joyful Path illustrates, dependent relationship doesn't work like that.

[DharmaDefender]

Could you please watch your speech?
Anybody is free to have illusions about the Dalai Lama that suit their minds, but this is not an illusion, these are words that could be used in a Court of Law in India against our people.
In case you didn´t know it, it already happened. Our monks were falsely accused by the Dalai Lama and his people of murder, and he and his academic accomplices continue to do so until today. It´s written everywhere and they never retracted their calumny.
So don´t have any doubt, if they find your words they would use them.
It would be very appropriate if you would be so kind as to erase them, at least from this Forum. Thank you.

I doubt my words could be used as evidence...who am I to them?

But no problem I'll erase them - I see a point to what you said - but there is a reason why I included the word 'mistakenly'.

[DharmaDefender]

Buddhas cannot transcend our karma, so why is it not possible for the Dalai Lama to be a worldly politician wearing the robes of a monk and using the Dharma for his own purposes?  It's funny that many critics of the NKT accuse Geshe-la's previous successors of wearing the robes of a monk whilst being degenerate and worldly but they never conceive that the Dalai Lama could be.  What if he is?  It's not impossible.

The Buddhas can't just stop him like causing him to be stuck by lightning or something!  The Buddhas need us and they are through the actions of the WSS guiding us to stop the Dalai Lama, but no 'hand of God' is going to descend and make everything alright.  If that were possible, they would have done it by now but as the story from Joyful Path illustrates, dependent relationship doesn't work like that.

I'll remember your response for the next time NKT detractors argue that Geshe-la is not a real monk, it's a very valid point. And you're right, it's not impossible that the Dalai Lama could be engaging in worldly activities whilst wearing robes.

However, it's equally possible that both Geshe-la and the Dalai Lama are engaging in what only seem to be worldly activities, but with good motivations. Since we can't judge their motivations, how can we judge the long-term results of their actions?

I don't think it's entirely right to say the Buddhas need us, I think it's more a case of us really needing them. Why would enlightened beings need us? That and saying that they are, through the actions of the WSS, guiding us to stop the Dalai Lama makes it sound like the 'hand of God' is at work...I know you didn't mean it that way, but it does sound like you're agreeing with Ensapa's POV.

[DharmaDefender]

"I doubt my words could be used as evidence...who am I to them?", THE ENEMY!
Believe it or not, the kasag read this site and feeds infromation and comments for Sam Dung to use in his speeches.

LOL fair enough, point taken

[Ensapa]

not necessarily because it can be easily countered by "if DL was wrong in assuming political power other highly enlightened beings would have stopped him, or else those beings would have contradicted their vows".

Just as highly enlightened beings have always stopped Lamas from gettin' worldly?

This raises a very important point.  Ensapa seems to be making a case for a 'hand of God' situation where the Buddhas would simply stop the Dalai Lama if he was really harmful.  Emptymountains retorts that other Lamas have exhibited worldly and deluded actions in the past and nothing appears to have been done by the Buddhas  to stop them.

I think it's very dangerous to assume that the Buddhas can just stop the Dalai Lama if he's doing wrong, and since he's allowed to 'get away with' banning Dorje Shugden it's a pure action intended to flourish the practice.  The present situation between the DL and Shugden practitioners is our karma.  Buddhas cannot transcend our karma for us - it's said in the scriptures that it is possible to purify negative actions before they ripen, but if they ripen, we have no choice but to accept suffering.  An example in Joyful Path is of a practitioner of Yamantaka tantra who lacked great compassion and so he used wrathful mantras to kill people.  This was a tantric practitioner.  The story ends with the practitioner taking lower rebirth as a hungry spirit due to his negative actions and as Geshe Kelsang says

"Since his negative karma ripened in that way, even the powerful Yamantaka could not help him"


Is this saying that Buddhas are powerless when negative karma ripens?  As Je Tsongkhapa says in Three Principal Aspects of the Path we are

...tightly bound by the chains of karma, so hard to release...

Buddhas cannot transcend our karma, so why is it not possible for the Dalai Lama to be a worldly politician wearing the robes of a monk and using the Dharma for his own purposes?  It's funny that many critics of the NKT accuse Geshe-la's previous successors of wearing the robes of a monk whilst being degenerate and worldly but they never conceive that the Dalai Lama could be.  What if he is?  It's not impossible.

The Buddhas can't just stop him like causing him to be stuck by lightning or something!  The Buddhas need us and they are through the actions of the WSS guiding us to stop the Dalai Lama, but no 'hand of God' is going to descend and make everything alright.  If that were possible, they would have done it by now but as the story from Joyful Path illustrates, dependent relationship doesn't work like that.

in that case, where is the basis of our faith in our Protector? has he not forcibly stopped the Dharma from degenerating several times as documented by the Music Delighting the ocean of protectors? Because if what you said is true, then those accounts in the text would have been fabricated completely since he's not supposed to help out in those situations.

my other question is, how much does WSS know or is in contact with Shudgen himself? Do they request audience with him and accept his advice? I know for sure the Shudgen community in Dharamsala still requests his advice, as with those in taiwan and other places...

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate. 
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.


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Dear A Friend,

I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.

Let me make some things clear to you please:

1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more.  I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.

2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.

3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.

4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.

5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.

6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.

7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.

8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.

9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.

10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.


Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.

I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.

I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.

A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.

I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.

Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.


Much sincerity,


Tk

P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.

[WisdomBeing]

I'd like to thank TK for his post, where he expresses eloquently and sincerely.

The points which particularly resonated with me were:
1. We here in this forum are ALL Dorje Shugden practitioners.
2. Everyone has a right to have their point of view and to express it in this and other forums. And should we differ in opinion, it is not meant to put each other down.
3. All of us wish the ban did not exist.
5. Not to criticise HH the Dalai Lama because it is an instruction from Dorje Shugden himself.

And it is not only TK who advocates the latter but in today's posting in the 'guest book section' (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/Guestbook/), one of the senior members of this forum, Thomas David Canada, states:

"There are a number of well worth points in TK's statements.
Tk's attitude of not abandoning Dorje Shugden and not critizising the Dalai Lama is certainly the way to go.

And there defintely is a ‘bigger picture’, whether it was intended by those at the root of the controversy I doubt.
All the (unjust) blame we (Trijang Rinpoche’s followers) presently experience is certainly the result of a collective negative karma of all of us concerned ones.

It is also very true, that Dorje Shugden NEVER says a negative word about the Dalai Lama, but rather admonishes not to loose respect towards him. But of course he also never ‘endorses’ the witch hunt.

It is a well known characteristic of Doje Shugden’s activities, that in course of time he brings even most unfortunate circumstances to finally positive effects for the beings. This is the ‘bigger picture’ the arises out of the situation due to Dorje Shugden’s powerful activities.

When all the criticism started, I also heard Kache Marpo once say that we (our side) would never be able to find the financial resources to propagate the precious name of our protector throughout the world to an extent as it is happening now with the controversy. So he seemed quite happy about the ‘publicity’. Nevertheless he also hinted, that in truly ‘out-of-hand’ circumstances of slander he would sometimes prefer to intervene with his sharp powers, but that Dorje Shugden is always binding him by obliging him to never do any harm to sentient beings."

Thank you TK and Thomas David Canada in particular on such an auspicious day like today, for reaffirming my fervent belief that there is a bigger picture out there and that our enlightened Protector, Dorje Shugden himself, is the grand master of the plan.

For those who have suffered under the ban, my heart goes out to you. Being a non-Tibetan or related to any particular Dharma centre, I have been extremely fortunate to not been personally affected by the ban but from the youtube videos and reports I have read and personal sharings i have heard, I do empathise with you. All I am able to do is to pray that your burdens may be lightened.

I will follow Tk's advice and not judge those whose views differ from mine and I do apologise if I have inadvertently offended anyone in my previous posts. It was not intentional and I shall strive to be more mindful in future. What i am certain of is that most people in this forum writes their posts out of their passion and faith in Dorje Shugden - and that is the same motivation as me. As Tk puts it, we just express it differently and what we express will appeal to different people. And all that we do goes towards the growth of Dorje Shugden's holy practice.

May Dorje Shugden's practice be universally accepted by next Losar!

With much love and peace to all,
Kate

[Vajraprotector]

I'd like to thank TK for his post, where he expresses eloquently and sincerely.

The points which particularly resonated with me were:
1. We here in this forum are ALL Dorje Shugden practitioners.
2. Everyone has a right to have their point of view and to express it in this and other forums. And should we differ in opinion, it is not meant to put each other down.
3. All of us wish the ban did not exist.
5. Not to criticise HH the Dalai Lama because it is an instruction from Dorje Shugden himself.

And it is not only TK who advocates the latter but in today's posting in the 'guest book section' (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/Guestbook/), one of the senior members of this forum, Thomas David Canada, states:

"There are a number of well worth points in TK's statements.
Tk's attitude of not abandoning Dorje Shugden and not critizising the Dalai Lama is certainly the way to go.

And there defintely is a ‘bigger picture’, whether it was intended by those at the root of the controversy I doubt.
All the (unjust) blame we (Trijang Rinpoche’s followers) presently experience is certainly the result of a collective negative karma of all of us concerned ones.

It is also very true, that Dorje Shugden NEVER says a negative word about the Dalai Lama, but rather admonishes not to loose respect towards him. But of course he also never ‘endorses’ the witch hunt.

It is a well known characteristic of Doje Shugden’s activities, that in course of time he brings even most unfortunate circumstances to finally positive effects for the beings. This is the ‘bigger picture’ the arises out of the situation due to Dorje Shugden’s powerful activities.

When all the criticism started, I also heard Kache Marpo once say that we (our side) would never be able to find the financial resources to propagate the precious name of our protector throughout the world to an extent as it is happening now with the controversy. So he seemed quite happy about the ‘publicity’. Nevertheless he also hinted, that in truly ‘out-of-hand’ circumstances of slander he would sometimes prefer to intervene with his sharp powers, but that Dorje Shugden is always binding him by obliging him to never do any harm to sentient beings."

I agree with you Kate, and I too would like to thank TK and Thomas David Canada for sharing these information, albeit a bit “mystical” to those who don’t believe, but has made me believe that Dalai Lama, despite what “harm” he is creating, Dorje Shugden’s practise will not be wiped out and will become stronger, just as the old prophecies that DS will replace Nechung.
I too hope the ban will be lifted or fade away with time so that the suffering of those who practice and had to ‘hide’ or be ostracised can feel relief. 
I CHOOSE to see that all these sufferings are not “unnecessary”. You may not agree, but we do not know what are the effects, especially in the long run of this so called “ban”. They can’t enforce it outside the Tibetan community. And they can’t stop people from practising.