Author Topic: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!  (Read 25497 times)

a friend

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2010, 07:56:08 PM »
Thank you Lineageholder for acknowledging my discovery/speculation, based on Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche´s own words, that the one whom the Protector wanted mostly to leave Tibet to benefit the teachings and sentient beings was this holy Trijang Dorjechang himself. (This is not to say that he wasn´t happy to protect all the others, a Buddha is always happy to protect, if they could they would take our obscurations with their own hands and would take us out of samsara once and for all, they don´t do it because it´s not possible).

I absolutely agree that one should take action when action is to be taken, and OF COURSE if your venerable Lama requested you to do demonstrations or other actions then there´s no doubt you have to do it.

Since it seems that what I´ve been saying is a little bit misunderstood, let me give a succinct explanation. It´s just a case of taking the middle way.

1- I oppose the use of insults against the Dalai Lama. This has two motivations: one, I try to keep my vows as much as I can and the Three Jewels know how difficult it is; I try also to remind others in this website to also keep their vows related to right speech. The other motivation is just skilful means in front of the world: I know that for some Oriental people the use of insults works quite well; this is not so in the Western world. In our Western world what works best is to point very clearly to wrong actions without what is called ‘ad hominem’ attacks, the attacks on the person. In the case of the D.L. this is true to a much greater degree due to his good reputation and the fact that people do not like to be treated as idiots. If you insult such a cherished icon, they feel insulted themselves because they have admiration and sympathy towards him. In the West what works is to say “he did this, look how it breaks such and such of our laws about human rights, etc.” rather than the use of insults that gives us a bad aspect and makes still more convincing his smiling face.

2- I consider a wrong view quite pernicious to go about saying that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of compassion in order to disseminate the cult of the Protector, or in order to benefit in some other unknown mysterious way the teachings and beings or even the Tibetans. This sounds quite virtuous, to maintain this view, but it´s not. It´s a wrong view, a type of superstition, maintained either out of innocent ignorance or out of other motivations, like repeating what others are saying or even out of some compassion for the Dalai Lama´s followers. But Buddhas act like in the Anglo-Saxon law: following precedents. For instance, the Buddhas with the marks they all are born in the Himalayas, they all are enlightened sitting under the Bodhi Tree, etc. There is no precedent of a Buddha that shows himself as such (and the Dalai Lama does, since he accepts the title of Chenrezig that he´s been awarded with) there is no precedent that they turn against their Gurus or that they split the Sangha or that they massively persecute people out of religious discrimination. Lord Atisha didn´t do this, Lord Tsongkapa didn´t do this, and that´s that: enough precedence for me, as to how a Guru/Buddha should conduct himself in the face of the world. How do you imagine that Buddhas that give the appearance of Guru/Buddhas go about showing the opposite of that which is their main, basic job: to show beings what to adopt and what to abandon? This doesn´t stand to reason.
(Here I beg any potential debater to please not come back again with examples that have nothing, nothing to do with this case, like Tilopa eating fish in front of Naropa or Marpa throwing Mila through the window; this does not fall into the public level I am talking about, that has nothing to do with the intimate Guru/disciple relationship. So please skip these and other similar examples. Skip also that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche said this or that. Kyabje Rinpoche was the Guru of the Dalai Lama and loved his disciple tenderly and never abandoned him; while he was alive he tried to maintain the door open for him to make amends, and for the Tibetans in exile not to loose hope, but once he passed away … a door closed in a definite way, so do not try to give me that one either).

3- About to take action against him, if innocent lives are at stake even in a broad sense and it´s possible to do something then one should do something. The Three Jewels know what we did. But to think that the teachings will survive only if we do actions against the Dalai Lama is also a deviation. The teachings will survive if we protect the Lamas and our own practice. If we do not actualize in our practice and realizations the holy teachings of Je Rinpoche then we are destroying the teachings with more strength than the outer actions of the Dalai Lama. Because if we, recipients of the treasury of Dharma imparted to us by our holy Lamas, those giants that came from the Land of Snows, do not practice, then who? Once we die, if this generation of disciples does not give enough number of realized beings, who is going to impart the Dharma to the coming generations? What a terrible betrayal to our Lamas and sentient beings that would be.
That is the meaning of my injonctions: if there is an innocent to protect and you can do it, then do it. Afterwards go immediately back to your practice and forget about that poor Dalai Lama and his actions. Listen, study, contemplate, meditate! This is going to save the holy Dharma, this is going to benefit ourselves and others.

Ok, thank the Three Jewels that this was going to be succinct. Imagine what it would be had I announced that it was going to be extensive.





Lineageholder

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2010, 08:51:39 PM »
Dear friend,

Thank you for your last post, it gives me a lot to think about.

Quote
I consider a wrong view quite pernicious to go about saying that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of compassion in order to disseminate the cult of the Protector, or in order to benefit in some other unknown mysterious way the teachings and beings or even the Tibetans. This sounds quite virtuous, to maintain this view, but it´s not. It´s a wrong view, a type of superstition, maintained either out of innocent ignorance or out of other motivations, like repeating what others are saying or even out of some compassion for the Dalai Lama´s followers. But Buddhas act like in the Anglo-Saxon law: following precedents. For instance, the Buddhas with the marks they all are born in the Himalayas, they all are enlightened sitting under the Bodhi Tree, etc. There is no precedent of a Buddha that shows himself as such (and the Dalai Lama does, since he accepts the title of Chenrezig that he´s been awarded with) there is no precedent that they turn against their Gurus or that they split the Sangha or that they massively persecute people out of religious discrimination.

Thank you for saying this.  People can hold whatever personal view they wish of the Dalai Lama, but I feel we need to deal with the conventional reality of his actions.  It is not Dharma.  The fact that Dorje Shugden's fame may be growing is due to the power of this great Protector, rather in spite of what the Dalai Lama's doing, so I really can't accept half-baked theories that he did all this to promote Dorje Shugden's practice.  I feel the time of 'crazy wisdom' is gone because in these degenerate times everyone acts crazily and we need to act in accordance with the Dharma, strictly in accordance with the moral precepts that Buddha gave, to show a good example of control over our minds in order to have any credibility at all.

emptymountains

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2010, 08:56:26 PM »
Dear a friend,

Quote
Thank you Lineageholder for acknowledging my discovery/speculation, based on Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche´s own words, that the one whom the Protector wanted mostly to leave Tibet to benefit the teachings and sentient beings was this holy Trijang Dorjechang himself.

Thank YOU posting the original post. Finally, this episode makes some sense!

Ensapa

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2010, 02:58:46 PM »
did Dorje Shudgen save the Dalai Lama so that he could "destroy" his practice?

isnt he supposed to be omniscient? if so why did he oversaw this?

if he oversaw something dosent it mean he's not enlightened?

and lastly, if we question Dorje Shudgen's judgement, arent we doubting him?

If Dorje Shudgen saves the Dalai Lama, its obvious that even Dorje Shudgen believes that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha also. Else why would he have bothered?

so can we tell Dorje Shudgen what to do now? :p

Lineageholder

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2010, 04:15:35 PM »
If Dorje Shudgen saves the Dalai Lama, its obvious that even Dorje Shudgen believes that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha also. Else why would he have bothered?

'A friend' has already addressed this point on this very thread.  It's very possible that the main person that Dorje Shugden was trying to save was Trijang Rinpoche.  The way to do this would be tell the Dalai Lama to flee, and of course he would be accompanied by Trijang Dorjechang, so mission accomplished!

Having thought about it, I really don't think the fate of Dalai Lama was the main concern of Dorje Shugden, although of course Buddhas do have compassion for all living beings without exception.  Being omniscient, he must have known what the Dalai Lama was going to do in the future - what thanks did Dorje Shugden get from the Dalai Lama, even though he cared for him like his only child? - but the main point was to save Trijang, and indirectly he saved the Dalai Lama too.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 06:04:37 PM by Lineageholder »

crazycloud

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2010, 06:00:46 PM »
CC_ The Toyo Bunko in Tokyo has an archived paper by Yamaguichi entitled something like "The Complete Ascension of the 5th Dalia Lama to Complete and Absolute Control Over the Tibetans. I forget the complete exact title, but close enough to read it for yourself. Ursula sent me this paper in 1996-97.Certified by Tromo Geshe Rinpoche as a source for her Work. Does this help?
Peace

Hey LG-

did you see my private message? Help me out!

crazy

dsnowlion

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2010, 08:51:54 PM »

That is why we will have to understand, sooner or later, that our main responsibility is NOT to wage a war against the Dalai Lama, whom I pity very much, and it is NOT either to wage a war in favor of Tibetan independence, but to study, contemplate and practice, and compose and disseminate the teachings that our most holy Trijang Dorjechang brought to us. Those words that candidly he wrote down, that "I, especially, could not remain in Tibet", carry to me all of these meanings and more.


I appreciate what you've wrote here. It is the most Dharmic thing to do that I've read. But people are oppressed, monks are excommunicated from their monastery, people are confuse and people are driven out of their homes, and people can't practice Dorje Shugden without being shun upon. I can't wear my Dorje Shugden pendant and T-Shirts openly cos I am afraid someone will report me. This I think is what needs to stop!

However, I don't think it is fair to just say it's all the Dalai Lama's fault but I do think the people he is surrounded by (TGIE) are the culprits that goes out and create havoc knowing that Tibetans are easily swayed and uses the Dalai Lama's name to carry out their violent political ways. We need to stop them and bring them to court too! After when the Dalai Lama passes, sorry, it will be so hard to imagine how they will carry on their activities when the no longer can say orders from the Dalai Lama.

But similar thoughts as dharmadefender came to mind;
1. Why did Dorje Shugden helped and advice for the Dalai Lama to leave Tibet?
2. And why did Dorje Shugden not reveal the Dalai Lama is deceptive, a fake, much earlier to the high Lamas and just get rid of him and save us all this misery???

Hope someone can give a clear logical answer.

Hope the ban gets lifted soon and we can all practice in openly peace! I can't remember, but I read somewhere that the Dalai Lama said he will soon retire and in future there may not be any more Dalai Lamas - hence no more 1 man rules / god - king dictator. 

zamzam24388

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2010, 02:50:00 AM »
Dorje Shugden advised HH DL to leave Tibet so that he could lead the Tibetan people away from the impending occupation.  HH DL followed Dorje Shugden's advice and He and His party survived the long trek over and across mountains into exile.

zamzam24388

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Hi dsnowlion
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2010, 03:33:43 AM »

Pertaining to your posting on HH DL --- this article does mention about this present HH DL being the last incarnation .... see last para:


this was extracted from :The Spiritual Leader - The Dalai Lama

The term 'Dalai Lama' translates into spiritual guru, dalai meaning ocean and lama meaning guru. For all the four sects of Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama is the greatest of all lamas of the Tibetan traditions and is referred to as Gyalwa Rinpoche meaning "Precious Victor," or Yishe Norbu (yid bzhin nor bu) meaning "Wish-fulfilling Jewel".
The Tibetan Buddhist also perceive the Dalai Lama as one of the many incarnations of Avalokitesvara - the most respected Bodhisattva of Tibetan Buddhism who represents te compassion of all Buddha.

Contrary to the perception of many people, the Dalai Lama is not the head of the Gelug School. Instead, this position is officially granted to the Ganden Tripa, the head of Ganden Monastery.

As per records, the title of the Dalai Lama was first conferred upon Sonam Gyatso by the Mongolian ruler, Altan Khan in the year 1578. However, he was not the first Dalai Lama as such. This is because he was third in his lineage and his previous two incarnation were bestowed this title post their deaths. Consequently, Sonam Gyatso became the 3rd Dalai Lama.

The 5th Dalai Lama, along with Gushri Khan, a Mongol ruler unified Tibet. From that time, till mid 20th century, the successive Dalai Lamas held partial political power in Tibet. The residence of the Dalai Lama in Tibet at this point of time was Potala Palace in winter and Norbulingka palace and park in the summer. In 1949, People's Republic of China marched its forces into Tibet and forced the Dalai Lama (14th) to flee to India. Now, the Dalai Lama resides in the Dharamshala in the north Indian state of Himachal Pradesh.


The Succession of Dalai Lama
With the demise of one Dalai Lama, quest begins for his successor or reincarnation. Lamas look for a small child or yangsi (yang srid) who possesses qualities similar to the previous Dalai Lama. Usually, the search spreads over a period of few years, but once the search is finalised, the new Dalai Lama is brought to Lhasa. Here, he undergoes training under other Lamas.

Currently, this method of selection of the Dalai Lama is secular, however, the insistence of People's Republic of China to get the names of the Dalai Lamas approved by it has led to some speculations that the present Dalai Lama will choose to be the last incarnation. The future of the Dalai Lama remains unclear with the Dalai Lama stating both that the conditions in Tibet require him to be reborn as well as he will never be reborn inside territory controlled by the People's Republic of China.


Ensapa

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2010, 06:06:40 AM »
i'm just wondering, is it possible to not hate the Dalai Lama and make that as the focus of our practice?

so if we disrespect the Dalai Lama wouldnt it reinforce the message that Dorje Shudgen practitioners are just like what is said by those anti Shudgen people?

So we promote Shudgen's practice by proving the point of those who oppose Dorje Shudgen?

vajralight

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2010, 10:35:56 AM »
Why dont you just STOP IT !!! Ensapa, you keep insisting that DS practitioners here hate the DL, ...this is just your interpretation of peoples direct words. You can speak directly without being angry or having hate. I do not hate the DL, this I know for a fact. He is not my Guru and I think he is deluded. Still my job as a Buddhist is to feel compassion for all living beings and not to make my main practise " not hating the DL " since I do not hate him anyway !

Your divisive speech wont work here Ensapa. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect your opinion but with the recent flow of mails I get the feeling that some hidden agenda is behind all this. I hope I am wrong.

Vajra

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2010, 10:40:23 AM »
 

I also do not hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama at all. But I will not give up my practice of Dorje Shugden. If practicing Dorje Shugden is tantamount to hating the Dalai lama then that is not my problem nor my intent.

Buddha Shakymani taught proper conduct specific to nuns that does not apply to the monks and hence the monks do not need to apply in their lives.

Similarily, Dalai lama teaches re the Shugden issue which does not apply to me so I do not need to apply in my life.


tk

thor

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2010, 12:34:35 AM »
Intriguing to learn about this sword that Dorje Shugden gave to HH Dalai Lama - anyone shed anymore light on it? Why did DS give it to him and does it have any mystical power?

The sword has sentimental value ha ha. A reminder of what he's left behind.

Ensapa

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2010, 09:18:13 AM »
Why dont you just STOP IT !!! Ensapa, you keep insisting that DS practitioners here hate the DL, ...this is just your interpretation of peoples direct words. You can speak directly without being angry or having hate. I do not hate the DL, this I know for a fact. He is not my Guru and I think he is deluded. Still my job as a Buddhist is to feel compassion for all living beings and not to make my main practise " not hating the DL " since I do not hate him anyway !

Your divisive speech wont work here Ensapa. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect your opinion but with the recent flow of mails I get the feeling that some hidden agenda is behind all this. I hope I am wrong.

Vajra

if you dont hate him then why use disrespectful speech against him? then is there a need to make nasty comments and belittle him if you dont hate him? stop being such a hypocrite.

i am sure many of us here do not agree with his actions but some of us here like tk has taken the smarter approach of not making any comments about DL. I feel that his approach is much better than calling DL all kinds of funny things (that wont work because everyone else who is not a Shugden practitioner knows he's not like that, based on his other actions)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 09:22:17 AM by Ensapa »

DSFriend

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Re: Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2010, 05:10:35 PM »
Wow! Can't wait for HH Trijang Rinpoche's auto-bio to be out. We will get so much insights and much doubts for many will be cleared regarding Dorje Shugden. Reading auto-bio of such beings can so be inspiring.
Anyone could recommend auto-bio of mahasiddhas or high lamas who talks about DS? thanks.