Dorje Shugden says leave To Dalai Lama!

[vajralight]

Quote "Ensapa":

if you dont hate him then why use disrespectful speech against him? then is there a need to make nasty comments and belittle him if you dont hate him? stop being such a hypocrite.

And again the word hypocrite surfaces. Thank you for your kind words. I know what anger and hate feels like, I have done some practice and I know what it feels like to have or not to have anger. So when I tell you I don't have anger towards DL, you can decide to call me a hypocrite, that is your responsability and your freedom.
Think what you want. You see nasty comments, I just give you my opinion. My opinion is without anger, I feel DL is harming Dharma and his actions to destroy the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapas lineage should be stopped. (In a non-violent but verbal wrathful way.)  I feel there is a need to tell it like I see it, I take the karmic results on me, being aware that if I have a bad motivation or anger I will go to the lower realms.

Is your disrespectful speech towards me ("hypocrite") a sign that you hate me ?

Vajra

[thor]

According to the 13th Dalai Lama’s biography, there was a prophecy by Padmasambava. The previous Dalai Lama (the 12th) Trinley Gyatso is said to have received the prophecy directly from the Lotus Born himself. Padmasambhava told the 12th Dalai Lama that unless he took a wife, he would die young (he did), and  predicted the rebirth of the next Dalai Lama. He then spoke these words:
The king will roam foreign lands and a foreign army will come to Tibet;
You the ruler of Tibet will travel to the country of China,
And the ruler of China will send the Chinese army to Tibet.

[Vajraprotector]

My opinion is without anger, I feel DL is harming Dharma and his actions to destroy the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapas lineage should be stopped. (In a non-violent but verbal wrathful way.)  I feel there is a need to tell it like I see it, I take the karmic results on me, being aware that if I have a bad motivation or anger I will go to the lower realms.

Vajra

My question:
If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa lineage, Dorje Shugden the all powerful Dharma protector to protect the lineage, WHY ISN’T HE DOING ANYTHING? It is impossible that he's not powerful enough to remove this obstacles called "the fake Dalai Lama"?

Funny how Dalai Lama cannot ‘destroy’ Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden cannot eliminate this “obstacles” to Gelugpa lineage (which Dorje Shugden is protector of this lineage) who is called Dalai Lama. Why is that? If either one party is right, the other party can be eliminated.

Also what happened to ALL the Dharma protectors of ALL lineages? If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa, he is destroying Dharma. Where are all the protectors?  They are protector of DHARMA, not protector of Tibet, so why don’t they step in?

And why are the oracles / Dharma protectors whom Dalai Lama have audience with yearly before losar didn’t say anything or slap the fake Dalai Lama? They are protectors of Dharma and they don’t say anything to the high lamas or Dalai Lama and let the Dharma degenerate? What about all the clairvoyant high lamas in the world? Why aren’t they doing anything?

Don’t tell me they are all the Dharma protectors and all the high lamas are corrupted? Then why do we propitiate the protectors and respect the high lamas anyway?

I remember I read before that if such Dharma protectors who failed to do their duties of protecting the Dharma, they are not upholding their vows when they were subdued and hence they will be subdued, just because they are supernatural beings doesn’t mean they are free of karma. So the subduer of such protectors, including Guru Rinpoche himself, where are they and what are they doing?

Hence, I still believe things are not what they are seemed to be. It cannot be that everyone is corrupted.

[DharmaDefender]

]I also do not hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama at all. But I will not give up my practice of Dorje Shugden. If practicing Dorje Shugden is tantamount to hating the Dalai lama then that is not my problem nor my intent.

Buddha Shakymani taught proper conduct specific to nuns that does not apply to the monks and hence the monks do not need to apply in their lives.

Similarily, Dalai lama teaches re the Shugden issue which does not apply to me so I do not need to apply in my life.

tk

So why then do anti-Shugden people feel the Dalai Lama's teachings on the Shugden issue should apply to every single person? I've been having a back-and-forth with someone on Phayul who believes Dorje Shugden is purely a Tibetan concern, and nothing to do with anyone else...it's a common criticism I hear, actually, "oh you're not Tibetan so you have no idea what you're talking about." Perhaps they should be reminded of Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings...dharma is for everyone.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

My question:

If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa lineage, Dorje Shugden the all powerful Dharma protector to protect the lineage, WHY ISN’T HE DOING ANYTHING? It is impossible that he's not powerful enough to remove this obstacles called "the fake Dalai Lama"?

Funny how Dalai Lama cannot ‘destroy’ Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden cannot eliminate this “obstacles” to Gelugpa lineage (which Dorje Shugden is protector of this lineage) who is called Dalai Lama. Why is that? If either one party is right, the other party can be eliminated.

Also what happened to ALL the Dharma protectors of ALL lineages? If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa, he is destroying Dharma. Where are all the protectors?  They are protector of DHARMA, not protector of Tibet, so why don’t they step in?
........

Hence, I still believe things are not what they are seemed to be. It cannot be that everyone is corrupted.

What is the Dharma that the Protectors protect? Where does it reside?

It exists of course only in the minds of the practitioners. The Dharma does not exist in any external thing, a book or a monastery, in any organization, in any state or territory. But merely in the minds, or hearts, of the practitioners.

And for the Protectors to function, the practitioner has to connect from his side, he must want the help, ask the help. Otherwise all the Protectors are powerless.

If one remembers all that, then one does not ask questions like "why didn't the Protectors act when communists conquered Tibet" or like "why don't the Protectors stop the Dalai or someonewhatever". Those questions are simply off the mark, out of the bounds, irrelevant, nonsense, category mistakes in the forms of questions.

Dharma Jewels are mental realizations of certain kind in the minds of Aryans, and the Protectors protect only those, just only those. As losing one's country, say Tibet, can function as a Holy Teaching of non-attachement and impermanence, and hence bring one to realizations, the Protectors do not mind. It is not their job. The Protectors protect internal things in the mental continuums of individuals. They are not some spiritualistic form of Universal Peace-keepers or the Police. If someone wants that kind of help, one must ask the worldly gods to intervene. Tibetans have lot's of those.

[vajralight]

Quote:
My question:
If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa lineage, Dorje Shugden the all powerful Dharma protector to protect the lineage, WHY ISN’T HE DOING ANYTHING? It is impossible that he's not powerful enough to remove this obstacles called "the fake Dalai Lama"?

The DL is trying to destroy the lineage, it is up to us, to the practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition to show we are. All appearances are manifestations of our own mind, all bad things are results of our karma, so we need to purify and also we need to act with a pure motivation to save the lineage. ofcourse this begins with a pure intention and a mind free from anger. I agree with ZPawo, without us asking for help and doing something about the situation, nothing will be accomplishged and there is a chance the lineage will be destroyed. Anything is possible, also the total annihilation of the Ganden lineage.

The Tibetans never thought their monasteries would be destroyed, In India they probably never imagined that the great monasteries would be destroyed, so we should not be naive and think we can only be good buddhists if we are very kind to harmful people. Sometimes we need to be direct and wrathful in order to save something truly precious. (again, without violence, just strong words.)

I think DorjeShugden is doing something, he is mobilising us to help him save and protect Je Tsongkhapas lineage. Even if we are not great practitioners or great Lamas, if we have a good and sincere motivation, we dont have to be afraid to speak up and use strong words.

Vajra

[harrynephew]

Not just says 'leave', he organized, guided and guaranteed protection for the whole escape.

I've also heard from a close source that the Dalai Lama still has this special sword given directly by Dorje Shugden, there is a room in his residence that he doesn't allow anyone to go into.

We should petition him to give this sword to Shar Gaden Monastery, people that will actually venerate it!!!

Here's a different translation of part of this (for comparative purposes): http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/misc-uprising.html

i agree!!!

this sword is sacred and a testament to the world how powerful our Dharma protector is

we must have it! we must have it! we must have it!

[a friend]

 
How about a sword recovery squad? Thom you on it?

[DharmaDefender]

And for the Protectors to function, the practitioner has to connect from his side, he must want the help, ask the help. Otherwise all the Protectors are powerless.

I don't think it's as simple as just wanting or asking for the help, but also having the karma / merit to receive the help? Otherwise, what could the Protector action in order to effect some change? I'm sure Tibetans have prayed to Dorje Shugden countless times to ask to regain their independence, to ask Dorje Shugden to persuade the Dalai Lama to lift the ban.

I think it's not the time or we're lacking in the karma for that at this present moment...perhaps Dorje Shugden's perceived inability to stop the Dalai Lama is due to (a) our lack of merit to practise openly at this present time (b) an indication that perhaps the Dalai Lama is actually doing the right thing.

Dharma Jewels are mental realizations of certain kind in the minds of Aryans, and the Protectors protect only those, just only those. As losing one's country, say Tibet, can function as a Holy Teaching of non-attachement and impermanence, and hence bring one to realizations, the Protectors do not mind. It is not their job. The Protectors protect internal things in the mental continuums of individuals. They are not some spiritualistic form of Universal Peace-keepers or the Police. If someone wants that kind of help, one must ask the worldly gods to intervene. Tibetans have lot's of those.

Well said although I'm not sure asking the worldly gods to intervene is the best idea, I've heard some of them are rather touchy...!

Or we go stealth into his house and bring forth the Sword Of The Protector!

LOL reminds me of the Sword in the Stone, although Dorje Shugden's sword is much cooler than King Arthur's (and helluva lot more effective).

[WisdomBeing]

i'm just wondering, is it possible to not hate the Dalai Lama and make that as the focus of our practice?

so if we disrespect the Dalai Lama wouldnt it reinforce the message that Dorje Shudgen practitioners are just like what is said by those anti Shudgen people?

So we promote Shudgen's practice by proving the point of those who oppose Dorje Shudgen?

I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner and I definitely do not hate the Dalai Lama. I do not agree with everything he says but I still respect him because my Guru respects him. The end.

I do agree that DS practitioners should not fight amongst ourselves - there is enough division in the world. Why don't we respect each other's differences? If you dislike the Dalai Lama, you have your reasons but there's no need to kill me too because i don't

[emptymountains]

I'm sure Tibetans have prayed to Dorje Shugden countless times to ask to regain their independence

Seriously, what does Tibetan independence have to do with Dharma?

Dorje Shugden is not about regime change. He's not republican/democrat either.

[dsnowlion]

Vajra [/i]
[/quote]
 
And why are the oracles / Dharma protectors whom Dalai Lama have audience with yearly before losar didn’t say anything or slap the fake Dalai Lama? They are protectors of Dharma and they don’t say anything to the high lamas or Dalai Lama and let the Dharma degenerate? What about all the clairvoyant high lamas in the world? Why aren’t they doing anything?

Don’t tell me they are all the Dharma protectors and all the high lamas are corrupted? Then why do we propitiate the protectors and respect the high lamas anyway?

I remember I read before that if such Dharma protectors who failed to do their duties of protecting the Dharma, they are not upholding their vows when they were subdued and hence they will be subdued, just because they are supernatural beings doesn’t mean they are free of karma. So the subduer of such protectors, including Guru Rinpoche himself, where are they and what are they doing?
[/quote]


Hahaha! This is so hilariously! Ya why didn't the Dharma protectors just slap the Dalai Lama if he was really detroying the Dharma?? This is a very GOOD QUESTION! Can anyone think of a good answer or sometimes excuse to hold on to the arguement of he the D.L. is fake???

Well I honestly won't say HH the Dalai Lama is a fake... why?

1. Because he is still the only Buddhist monk to date that can command the respect of so many leaders and high masters as. So are all the high masters and leaders of nations (except China of course) blind and fools???

2. Despite all the controversy HH has created, He must be silly to create another one by saying He allows Trijang Rinpoche to continue practicing Dorje Shugden. Why is that possible?

3. Never once I've heard the Oracle in trance of Dorje Shugden say we should slander and defame the Dalai Lama. Instead I've heared him says the opposite and for us to be patient and never lose respect for His Holiness. Now why would Dorje Shugden not just say HH is a fake? That would just clear the air here.

4. Like what TK has mentioned earlier and also what A Friend has said: because we have vows and we need to keep them intact, going around slandering another sangha is definitely breaking our vows. Hence I oppose the use of insults against the Dalai Lama too.
Many may disagree with this, then are you disagreeing in keeping your vows intact? What is so wrong in trying to point out facts without slandering down someone?

Definitely the persecution of Shugden practitioners is wrong and must be stopped! But I find it hard to stop it by going around defaming His Holiness, definitely this will not go well with the opposition team that would only encourage them to tighten their fist towards our Shugden brothers and sisters in Tibet. They are the ones who will receive the effects of our actions not us directly. And so how is the restoring peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners achievable??? By adding more anger to already angry people is not going to create more peace.

So yeah are the rest of the Dharma protectors - Sleeping? Maybe they don't get into politics since they are Dharma protectors hu.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

And for the Protectors to function, the practitioner has to connect from his side, he must want the help, ask the help. Otherwise all the Protectors are powerless.

I don't think it's as simple as just wanting or asking for the help, but also having the karma / merit to receive the help? Otherwise, what could the Protector action in order to effect some change? I'm sure Tibetans have prayed to Dorje Shugden countless times to ask to regain their independence, to ask Dorje Shugden to persuade the Dalai Lama to lift the ban.

I think it's not the time or we're lacking in the karma for that at this present moment...perhaps Dorje Shugden's perceived inability to stop the Dalai Lama is due to (a) our lack of merit to practise openly at this present time (b) an indication that perhaps the Dalai Lama is actually doing the right thing.

Dharma Jewels are mental realizations of certain kind in the minds of Aryans, and the Protectors protect only those, just only those. As losing one's country, say Tibet, can function as a Holy Teaching of non-attachement and impermanence, and hence bring one to realizations, the Protectors do not mind. It is not their job. The Protectors protect internal things in the mental continuums of individuals. They are not some spiritualistic form of Universal Peace-keepers or the Police. If someone wants that kind of help, one must ask the worldly gods to intervene. Tibetans have lot's of those.

Well, uh... Your comments and questions concerning the first quote were answered in the very next quote you gave.

Things are very simple if one does not make category mistakes, like for instance asking a Dhapmapala to effect a worldly change. Dharma Protectors protect Dharma, and this very Dharma can be found only in the mind of the individual, so therefore Dharma Protectors protect only the minds of practice and realization of those practitioners who willfully connect to the Protector in question by using prayers, offerings, praises, etc. There is no more to it. There is no political or worldly dimension in that. If one thinks otherwise, one has made a category mistake. The Second Coming of Jesus might drive the communists out of Tibet, and humble the Dalai Lama into giving religious freedom to Tibetans, but the Acts of Dharmapala merely give internal realizations in the mental continuums of the practitioners of that very Protector. Gods are gods, and Dharmapalas are Dharmapalas. They are not the same.

[a friend]

In a general, conceptual way I agree with what you are saying ZP.
Which does not mean that people are crazy when they ask the Protector for "wordly" things like food and shelter and good conditions. Even a wishing Bodhicitta will prompt the Protector to help a practitioner that needs things in the material world to go on with his life and his practice. Actually our Protector is well known for that, and it´s possibly one of the reasons why people had some type of semjung I don´t want to lean on right now.
And maybe not even a wishing Bodhicitta, even the slightest hint of faith in Lord Buddha or Je Yab Se Sum will prompt the Protector to award the practitioner with things he thinks he needs, because it´s a good point to establish a basis of faith. Our holy one is well known for those types of things, I would call them "Guru like things". You know, what they say in the instructions for being a Lama ... nothing wrong with that, on the contrary. All depends on the level of the devotee. No doubt his main thing is to help with realizations (not to "give" them but to help with them), but not everybody is ready to receive this particular type of help immediately.

I do agree though that to expect the holy Protector to give Tibet independence is just the projection of a profound attachment to a nation. I don´t think it has any basis on any perceivable conventional reality.

I´m not going to deal again with the projection ... "perhaps the Dalai Lama is actually doing the right thing" ...
I've said enough and I´m taking a break from repeating things like John in the desert ... I´ll come back to it some other time.

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate. 
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.



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Dear A Friend,

I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.

Let me make some things clear to you please:

1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more.  I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.

2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.

3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.

4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.

5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.

6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.

7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.

8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.

9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.

10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.


Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.

I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.

I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.

A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.

I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.

Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.


Much sincerity,


Tk

P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.