Author Topic: Dorje Shugden oracle composes long life prayer for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso  (Read 42008 times)

Harold Musetescu

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 Pema8

 :P :P ::) ::) ::)

Gabby Potter

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Hi Potter

The highest Gelugpa tantra is the "Kalachakra".

I have received it twice.

It teaches of a great Kalachakra war in the year 2424.

In this war the Shambala Warriors SLAUGHTER all the Muslims on this planet called Earth..

How's that for criticizing someone else's religion!!!

How's that for putting down someone faith!!!!

 8)

In Yamantaka's tantra, there's a type of "violent" visualization that can be done to send a person to a pure land. A highly practised practitioner is to visualize Yamantaka's horns piercing through the other person and thus one will be reborn in a pure land. If you're gonna compare, this is slaughter too. What are you trying to prove? Do not demonize Buddha's teachings & practices to justify your statements.

Have you ever thought that your narrow mindedness, hatred and senselessness are the reasons why you're still here after taking Kalachakra, twice, and still stuck in your situation now, still spreading nonsense for attention? And don't get me wrong, it is exactly why you and I are stuck in samsara, we can take however many initiations we want, but if we don't practice lojong, the initiations will only be of little help. Again, please do not use these practices to justify your senseless statements, it will not only make you look bad, but will also create misunderstanding in peoples' minds. Obviously you(we) don't know enough to explain all these tantric stuff, the last thing you want to do is to destroy the reputation of these great teachings.

All the best to you.

Harold Musetescu

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Are you talking to me Gabby or are you just holding up a mirror looking at yourself???

Erstvollzug

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Are you talking to me Gabby or are you just holding up a mirror looking at yourself???

It must be hard and makes a person very unhappy and cruel when they are dishonorably discharged from their job. Once 'mighty' high and flying and then nothing must make someone totally unwell. Taking bribes and accepting corruption to hurt others is really not a good way to live our lives. Too bad.

Big Uncle

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Good point guys. Who is Harold Musetescu? Who is he to ask questions about Tsem Rinpoche. He is not my lama. Personally, I respect Tsem Rinpoche for all that he has done for the movement. I am not in the least concerned about his recognition or the meaning of his name. What matters to me is what he stands for and that is for freedom of practice for Dorje Shugden practitioners.

He talks and talks a lot on his blog about that. I have learnt so much from his wealth of knowledge, which he shares willingly and openly all the time. What makes my blood boil is this Musetescu. How dare he come here to incite hatred against a Dorje Shugden stalwart. As an admin, I warn you to behave, this is a forum for all concerning Dorje Shugden. We do not tolerate lama-bashing.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 11:28:49 AM by Big Uncle »

Matibhadra

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Quote
A few months later I found out what date were on its Canadian equivalents: using the Canadian Access to Information Act, I discovered that a Canadian immigration official, Harold Musetescu, -- later dismissed -- had been bribed by officials of the Canadian Jewish Congress (or alternatively by the Toronto arm of the Simon Wiesenthal Center business-empire) to deposit phoney data about me on the Canadian Immigration intelligence files, in a conspiracy to prevent me from making further visits to Canada. I obtained actual print-outs of the data, showing when Musetescu planted the data, and what they were.


http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5847.msg64266#msg64266

JD

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Well done everyone! I've seen every negative thought and delusion possible expressed on this topic.

Perhaps you could contemplate why a renunciate monk who has no interest in women, sex or children could possibly end up as a disrobed, married parent? Do you really think that's possible? What possible benefit could there be for sentient beings and what message does that send about ordination, which is vitally important in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, considering that both Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden both wear ordained robes?

Please think about how believing that a disrobed boy could possibly be a valid Tulku of Trijang Rinpoche and how this belief humiliates the great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Please also think how this example of being a disrobed  lineageholder in Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition is a really bad example that will cause it to degenerate.

Please think!

Dear Lineageholder,

Should we similarly discard all works and teachings by His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama, the Mahasiddha Serkong Dorje Chang, His Holiness the 6th Dalai Lama and also the Mahasiddha Gantapha? Can we write them off since all these great Masters had consorts?

There are no 'consorts' in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, Je Rinpoche's example shows that.

Consort practice is written up in Je Tsongkhapa's huge pantheon as a pure yoga for advanced/realised practitioners to attain great bliss. It is clearly expressed in crisp English within "Clear Light of Bliss", Tharpa Publications (1992), a wisdom book that is the fruit of unbroken transmissions since before the time of Je Tsongkhapa. The lineage gurus are illustrated in this publication back to Manjusri and Buddha Vajradhara.

Buddha Manjusri too has a consort the Buddha Saraswati, revered for art, culture and music, and so may the light of Dharma spread and may the love of learning, truth and knowledge sweep aside our ignorances of culture, prejudice, hearsay, assumptions, etc. On the subject of Mahamudra, impure minds will not be able to perceive the purest truth it is said. Relative to what is being discussed on this thread and others, well we can figure it out.

I pay homage to the Guru, the Yidam and the Dakini, without refuge what would we be?


Lineageholder

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Consort practice is written up in Je Tsongkhapa's huge pantheon as a pure yoga for advanced/realised practitioners to attain great bliss. It is clearly expressed in crisp English within "Clear Light of Bliss", Tharpa Publications (1992), a wisdom book that is the fruit of unbroken transmissions since before the time of Je Tsongkhapa. The lineage gurus are illustrated in this publication back to Manjusri and Buddha Vajradhara.

Buddha Manjusri too has a consort the Buddha Saraswati, revered for art, culture and music, and so may the light of Dharma spread and may the love of learning, truth and knowledge sweep aside our ignorances of culture, prejudice, hearsay, assumptions, etc. On the subject of Mahamudra, impure minds will not be able to perceive the purest truth it is said. Relative to what is being discussed on this thread and others, well we can figure it out.

I pay homage to the Guru, the Yidam and the Dakini, without refuge what would we be?

It is true that in the common tradition of Mahamudra, reliance on an Action Mudra or consort is taught for those who wish to attain enlightenment before death. However, Je Tsongkhapa showed a different example. He and his students did not engage in consort meditation even though they were qualified to do so. Why? for two reasons:
  • Because it would be inappropriate for a monk to show the example of engaging in sexual activity as this is what ordinary beings would see. It would cause the pure practice of ordination to degenerate as it was possible that unqualified monks would engage in consort practice out of attachment.
  • Consort practice is not necessary in the uncommon Ganden oral lineage instructions on Mahamudra because the channel knots can be loosened by blessings and meditation alone.
Ordination is central and vital in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition which is why 'Tulku' Trijang is fake. He's not the continuation of Trijang Rinpoche as this great master would never show the example of disrobing, would never marry and would never have children which is the opposite of renunciation. You think this pure monk would show the example of enjoying samsara? You humiliate him because by accepting that he would do these things is tantamount to saying he had no experience of renunciation which is nonsense.

wang

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"Ordination is central and vital in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition which is why 'Tulku' Trijang is fake.." He's not the continuation of Trijang Rinpoche as this great master would never show the example of disrobing, ..."

This is a joke! You are saying that the 10th Panchen Lama, Kyabje Serkong Dorje Chang etc. were all fake tulku?

While no one disagree that the Gelukpa teachings were mainly transmitted via ordained monks,  it don't imply that disrobed tulkus could not give teachings and be respected by the community....

wang

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Oh. I forgot to mention Gelek Rinpoche, who has given a lot good Gelukpa teachings in English after his disrobe, under request from Ling Rinpoche in mid 70s.

Matibhadra

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Ordination is central and vital in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition which is why 'Tulku' Trijang is fake.

Wrong. Trijang Choktrul is “fake” because NKT is afraid of disintegrating after Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's passing away.

NKT needs to assert its relevance in the absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, which it does trying to disparage its perceived competition, that is, other Shugden lamas.

Therefore, Trijang Choktrul is “fake”, Gonsar Rinpoche is a “troublemaker”, tulkus in general are fake, whatever, as long as NKT can distract people from their lack of a worthy successor to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

After Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's passes away, his students will massively flock to other Shugden lamas, and this is precisely what corporate NKT fears and desperately wishes to prevent.

NKT's anxiety to disparage such other Shugden lamas is just a measure of its corporate despair.

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He's not the continuation of Trijang Rinpoche as this great master would never show the example of disrobing, would never marry and would never have children .

Maybe the previous Trijang Rinpoche simply forgot to ask your idiotic authorization.

The layman Vimalakirti was equal to the Buddha, and superior to any other monks and bodhisattvas, but according to your imbecile logic he would be a “fake” too.

Indeed, Vimalakirti was married, had children and even run a business. But, as opposed to NKT monk-bureaucrats, he was not into preaching puritanism as a means of ensuring corporate survival.

The funny thing here is that those who most boast about “renunciation” are those most motivated by mundane goals, such as ensuring their own corporate survival.

And since their motivation is so vile, it's no wonder that they resort to disparaging teachers they see as competitors, such as other Shugden lamas, and tulkus in general.

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which is the opposite of renunciation

You are not interested in “renunciation”, you are interested in NKT's mundane, corporate survival.

Behind every obsessive moralistic preaching one will find a greedy priest, monk, or pseudo-renunciate.

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You think this pure monk would show the example of enjoying samsara?

Why not? Let alone Vimalakirti, even the Buddha enjoyed samsara, if you ever heard about his life and deeds.

Meanwhile, NKT's impure, depraved, greedy, pseudo-monk bureaucrats, obsessed only with their own corporate survival, afraid of their own corporate disintegration, while attached to samsara cannot even enjoy it.

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You humiliate him because by accepting that he would do these things is tantamount to saying he had no experience of renunciation which is nonsense.

Renunciation is a quality of mind, not an external, social status, or type of cloth.

Therefore, your ridiculous, infantile attempt to equate renunciation with being a “monk” shows your thorough lack of understanding of even the most basic Buddhist teachings.

--

As to the propagandistic usage of the term “humiliate”, repeating NKT's official propaganda, it is intended to create the idea that NKT is the “guardian” or “defender” of Trijang Rinpoche's inheritance, supposedly spoiled by non-NKT “illegitimate” lamas.

This usage again betrays NKT's desperate need to assert its relevance in a world without Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, or, in other words, the fear of its impending disintegration.

Feeling angry and impotent about its own bleak future, NKT resorts to gratuitous aggression and defamation.

Matibhadra

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And something else to consider here is that NKT gave up criticizing the evil dalie, the cruel tyrant oppressing followers of NKT's own alleged protector Dorje Shugden, while simultaneously resorting to gratuitously slandering Shugden lamas such as Trijang Choktrul and Gonsar Rinpoches.

The conclusion is that NKT, as opposed to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, gave up Dorje Shugden, and now relies only on corporate money and power. And let's not exclude possible commercial and political agreements, since NKT's U-turn came immediately after Reuters fake news connecting Dorje Shugden and China.

To sum-up, behind NKT's pseudo-moralistic, puritanistic preaching one will likely find a lot of money and corruption.

Matibhadra

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To sum-up, behind NKT's pseudo-moralistic, puritanistic preaching one will likely find a lot of money and corruption.

If not CIA's ad George Soros' dirty fingers.

Gabby Potter

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When you have BS talk and believe that their BS-ing is the TRUTH? What do you get?
The NKT Kelsangs!

Forget about real logic  and answering all our logical questions and why they even USE the so-called person's students & followers they SUDDENLY decided to openly condemn and yet still wanna believe in Dorje Shugden even though DS is one of them who recognise the current one they condemn... and ALL their deluded excuses on why they are sane and right. It is amazing how much they think the world is dumb and what an insult to our intelligence. It is so funny how they can suddenly just turn around and back stab everyone especially the current HH. Trijang Rinpoche's students yet they still wanna preach dharma? Wow sounds like those fanatical Jehovah cultish group. Now I understand WHY people call them a cult! So sad they are proving those NKT-haters right.

Just see the kind of BS we have to tolerate online.... thanks, you guys really such an inspirational group of holy Dharma, oh not forgetting "pure" Buddhist. You really know how to represent your Guru & centre ------- looks to me they are the "troublemaker" here...


He gives one cheek to be slapped and then shoot himself in the foot. Smart - not!


Absolutely nonsense. How can it be that the 'current' tulku system is wrong and not the other? The current tulku system was passed down by lineage tulkus that was authorized by them. So if you reject the current system, by default you reject everything that was passed down from highly attained tulkus like H.H Trijang Rinpoche, H.H Zong Rinpoche, Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche and many more.  People from NKT really do not debate with logic, in fact they come up with replies that make them look even more ignorant. They can believe or reject whatever systems they want, the bottom line is do not stop people from believing. Everyone has their right to follow whichever teacher they want to, therefore it is not up to us to destroy the bond/ relationship. 

JD

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Consort practice is written up in Je Tsongkhapa's huge pantheon as a pure yoga for advanced/realised practitioners to attain great bliss. It is clearly expressed in crisp English within "Clear Light of Bliss", Tharpa Publications (1992), a wisdom book that is the fruit of unbroken transmissions since before the time of Je Tsongkhapa. The lineage gurus are illustrated in this publication back to Manjusri and Buddha Vajradhara.

Buddha Manjusri too has a consort the Buddha Saraswati, revered for art, culture and music, and so may the light of Dharma spread and may the love of learning, truth and knowledge sweep aside our ignorances of culture, prejudice, hearsay, assumptions, etc. On the subject of Mahamudra, impure minds will not be able to perceive the purest truth it is said. Relative to what is being discussed on this thread and others, well we can figure it out.

I pay homage to the Guru, the Yidam and the Dakini, without refuge what would we be?

It is true that in the common tradition of Mahamudra, reliance on an Action Mudra or consort is taught for those who wish to attain enlightenment before death. However, Je Tsongkhapa showed a different example. He and his students did not engage in consort meditation even though they were qualified to do so. Why? for two reasons:
  • Because it would be inappropriate for a monk to show the example of engaging in sexual activity as this is what ordinary beings would see. It would cause the pure practice of ordination to degenerate as it was possible that unqualified monks would engage in consort practice out of attachment.
  • Consort practice is not necessary in the uncommon Ganden oral lineage instructions on Mahamudra because the channel knots can be loosened by blessings and meditation alone.
Ordination is central and vital in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition which is why 'Tulku' Trijang is fake. He's not the continuation of Trijang Rinpoche as this great master would never show the example of disrobing, would never marry and would never have children which is the opposite of renunciation. You think this pure monk would show the example of enjoying samsara? You humiliate him because by accepting that he would do these things is tantamount to saying he had no experience of renunciation which is nonsense.

There is no reference anywhere to a "common tradition of Mahamudra". What is this view? Mahamudra is not common, is not ordinary and is taught but not governed by the crown ornament of the scholars of the land of the snows. Mahamudra is something in this above view, but the truth is not a fixed view.

Living buddhas, high lamas, tulkus, oracles, rinpoches, geshes, dakinis, yidams, dharmapalas, etc manifest in many forms. Have we the pure mind to recognise them all? Do we cling on to attachment to these above views? Why are these views important to us?

I dare not say anything more. I invite everyone to use the clearest mind possible.

By the lineage of Je Tsongkhapa and the pantheon of all the holy beings and Dorje Shugden, I lack the imagination to believe these above sets of views correctly represent the view of a fully qualified, healthy geshe. I do hope that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is living and in good health of body and mind - these views do not fit a Kadampa of any description.

Mundane questions arise: Is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso well and healthy? Has anyone actually proof of him making statements to support this view?

It is striking that if we compare the style/tone/intent of the general communications of other lamas' offices - on all kinds of other subjects, we see that there are very clear distinct features missing from the recent hotly debated public communications coming from NKT/associated bodies. It would be good to clarify this question in the first place. I hope someone can come forward to dispel all/any doubts.

I am very confused and don't know the answers, but more questions arise - would anyone like to answer the background flip side: who is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?

Where was he born in Tibet? When did he join a monastery, which one? Who was his ordination master? What is his life story before going to the west? When did he do his Geshe exams? Was he part of FPMT? Why did he go to the UK? Why did he start NKT before the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden practice? Why are there no other Tibetan lamas in NKT?

These are just straight level questions. Not accusations. More knowledge is needed to really understand better. I hope someone out there can shed light on this as accurately as possible. It is a responsibility.

Respectfully to the NKT leaders, the magnitude of the statements that the organisation is making recently lends the NKT open to question in general. Actions occur because of thought, what motivates thought? Is it anger/envy/fear? Why? Your root guru is your root guru, just as my guru is my guru and no other can change that no matter what the root guru does or does not do.

No judgements, it is just good to see what is going on and why all this fuss. It is very puzzling and utterly unnecessary, so we need more direct answers, knowledge and wisdom to develop better acceptance.

May the great teachers have a very long life and may my ignorance somehow bring benefit to everyone. Lots of love to all.