As one of the noobs I assume you're talking about, I agree with you - there probably is a lack of clarity in my views, hence why I joined the forum, to expand my knowledge. I'm getting pretty fed up of people criticising our Protector, talking badly about high lamas and at the same time, being very disrespectful to His Holiness.
Hey there DD-
Sorry if I kicked off a fuss here, I meant noob kind of teasing /affectionately, not particularly disparagingly, please don't be discouraged if people are tough on you! Ha ha!
Anyway, everyone is here because we've had it with the DL. (I don't refer to him as "His Holiness" because I find that mawkish and overblown, and I don't find him to be particularly holy, no offense intended...)
oh sorry, you have had it with
people criticizing our protector and
also criticizing the DL. I fist thought you were saying you had had it with the DL criticizing our protector, which made sense to me.
It doesn't make sense to me that we should not criticize Mr DL, because his actions have invited this criticism. Why should anyone criticize the protector? Really no reason for it, so I'm not into that, but can we criticize the DL? Sure. For example, I was there at any protest I could make it to, shouting for the DL to stop lying. Why? Because he is lying. Of course I can prove this. Is it disrespectful to call someone out on a lie? I really don't see how that follows.MAybe you would have preferred that we discussed our differences in other ways, such as privately, and of course, so would we. Trust, it was hot out there, and yelling at the DL does not generally
increase ones popularity given that the DL is uncritically and for no good reason regarded by the masses as the incarnation of perfection itself.
Unfortunately, after years of trying a more concilliatory approach, we were denied at every turn by the Dalai Lama. The choices left to us were to be quiet and allow it, or speak up. We chose the latter.
If you think that means we were disrespecting this person of great holiness, then you will not find many allies here, except for the ones you came in with. For the record, to me this does not mean that YOU should be quiet, I encourage you to voice your views here, if that is your wish. I am all for dissent and discussion, and would never try to shut you up. In fact, for a long time I held the view that you hold now, and I remember how painful it was to me to try to hold this view and to try to make sense of what was happening from this tortured perspective in which everything had to be good, and argument or disagreement were to be avoided at all costs.
In any case, I generally expect people to earn respect, and the DL gets precious little from me. I think he is a confused person trying unite politics and Dharma, but giving politics the upper hand. To my view, his project is doomed, and i will do my best to prevent him from taking our lineage along on his ride down.
Anyway, I think the "keep quiet and focus on our practice" advice applies more to those vehemently against or for the practice because there's just no balance in those views and it doesn't serve anyone. In fact, for a lot of newbies who have just come in on the issue, it becomes even more confusing and might even turn them away from Buddhism (just look at A Great Deception - if that was the first 'dharma' book I read, I wouldn't want to be Buddhist).
This is a good point, and bears discussion, and has been discussed for a long time here, which is why you see many responses to your posts that run "THAT old argument again....!"
Those who are "vehemently for" will not be quiet because to be vehemently for the practices of one's lineage is what is is to be a Buddhist, in my view. I think you miss the middle way by a mile if you think that we need balance in terms of accepting or rejecting the views of our spiritual guides. As for those who are vehemently against, I agree, they should keep quiet and focus on their practice, as our practice has nothing to do with them, and of course, does not harm them in any way.
You know what? Very good point re "If DL pretends to make war, we should do the same." - I never thought about it that way! That's definitely something I'll keep in mind...
Yeah, cool, I though it was a good point too. To me, this is where your argument gets all foggy. It seems that this conflict is spreading the dharma of our protector throughout the world, etc etc , multiple exclamation points hooray etc. and yet you don't want ot participate in it. Does that make sense? It seems like even you don't take your view seriously, and the result is that others don't either.
Why wouldn't your motivation be pure? This conflict spreads the dharma, DL is Avalokita, he (wink wink) opposes the practice...go on, tell him he's wrong! give him an argument that he can shoot down so you can make another point....maybe we can get in Newsweek again!
Headline: "Buddhists are insane, and they worship spirits! Dalai lama is a political monster, and the Dorje Shugdens are a murderous ghould worshipping cult! long live the Dharma!.....Next up, Brad and Angelina area actually Zombies from outer space."
Surely this is good for the holy Dharma of Buddha Shakayamuni and Je Tsongkhapa? So go on.....
But of course you don't, which gives lie to the idea that you believe that th is conflict is helpful.
Am I misrepresenting your views? Perhaps it is just The Holy One who should spread the news, Dorje Shugden is an evil wraith, did you hear? Purge the monasteries! Anyone following the tradition of their spiritual guide must break, if they were DS followers. we'll keep quiet, and gradually our practice will disappear. First from the Tibetan world, then gradually as we become pariahs, for m the western world as well.
well, It's not going to happen. Not while we have breath.
So, if the conflict should stop, only one person can stop it. Perhaps this seems extreme to you, and that I am not taking both sides into account, but I challenge you to make a coherent case for this view, because it can't be done. It is sentimental fiddle-faddle.
So do. Keep it in mind. In fact, have a good think about it, and report you findings, I find the discussion enlivening.
but it doesn't mean I'll ever talk bad about the Dalai Lama. I can't, the karmic reprecussion for me would be too great because I don't know if my motivation is pure! (I can say it's pure but whether it really is, is a different story!) Likewise for those who criticise him, perhaps?
You write as though some one were trying to make YOU speak out against the DL. Where are you getting this idea? Sounds like you have a spiritual guide and a practice, so off you go! If you don't want to say the DL is naughty, by all means, keep your head down. But don't be surprised if you meet some ...uh, strong responses here when you try to encourage others to keep their voices down.
ok, nice rhetorical move in that last sentence. You can't talk bad about the DL becasue
you don't know that your motivations are pure. The karmic repercussions might be terrible in that case.....those who critcize him perhaps also don't know if their motivations are pure...hmmmmm.... it's all a bit ....subtle...let's just state it out clearly shall we?
"Even though you may SAY your motives are pure, whether they are or not is different story, really you can't know. If you don't know if you have pure motives and you criticize The Holiness, the kamic repercussions could be terrible. so be quiet. for your own sake."
how's that, ok?
I think you haven't taken into account that Buddhists who protest the most famous Buddhist figure in the world have, or course, thought through the karma of it. Don't be condescending, please. Our karma is ours, yours is yours. If you fear for us, pray for us. I for one will take any help I can get. For most, our own spiritual Guides have blessed our endeavors, either directly or tacitly by not trying to stop them, which they could in an instant by moving thier little finger.
We actually respect our spiritual teachers.
I have heard that Dagom Rinpoche said that The DL is sick and requires a great healing of the mind. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso clearly is ok with his students protesting, he asked them to. Some of the gang from Trijang Buddhist institute, including Lamas, tulkus and Geshes were there, protesting away. The Gangchen crew seems to be down..has your teacher asked you to keep quiet? If so, please follow his advice, but don't worry about us, and please don't try to silence us.
Trijang Dorjechang, your own lama's guru, who according to Zong Rinpoche is the "director of us all," said that "Even these days, some suspect those who rely upon and propitiate Gyalchen of conjusring ghosts, but it is the babbling talk of those who dont understand the definitive meaning."
I don't know about you, but I feel that. All the way in my gut.
In fact, for a lot of newbies who have just come in on the issue, it becomes even more confusing and might even turn them away from Buddhism (just look at A Great Deception - if that was the first 'dharma' book I read, I wouldn't want to be Buddhist).
hey, I'm with you on that one. the whole thing is disturbing and confusing for the noobs. I myself spent many years with my underwear all in a knot over it, scared to engage in practice and trust my Spiritual Guide, too connected to my teachers and in love with the dharma to leave and find a new teacher. Years. Literally, years. Sometimes weeping in confusion, so trust me , I get it.
what I have come to see through my investigations (years....literally) is that those who meet the book early in their career either won't care (I was so surprised to see that many people have very little investment in the DL, what they want is the DHARMA) or will struggle like me. Perhaps they will be put off the Gelug tradition, so they'll go find a nice Nyingma lama, hopefully a nonpolitical one who is not bound to TGIE, and practice away. To my mind, that's fantastic. Perhaps a lovely Skaya or Kagyu teacher is for them, maybe Zen or Shambhala, maybe pure land..... but in general, it won't stop them wanting to be Buddhists, so no worries there.
If it is confusing for them,then that is a shame, but again, there is no solution in allowing the Ganden tradition to be destroyed. I think the solution is for the Dalai Lama to....stop lying, and to give religious freedom. That he does not is the part that is really confusing, if you think about it.
all the best!
